PSA Haste does not waste a valuable spell slot

[varusso]

And yet, as I have stated several times, I have NEVER experienced any negative consequences from not having Rage. I have also explained why, but that keeps getting ignored so I won't reiterate that here.

I have only ONCE been criticized by another player by my spell/enhancement choices in game: a WF barb who was upset my first sorc hadn't memorized Reconstruct.





Actually, from the number of complaints in the forums I have read regarding these types of things (ie people playing 'the wrong way'), it seems many more players DON'T follow these alleged 'standards' than do. So how could they possibly be game 'standards?'


I think demanding people to conform to one (or a limited number) of builds and play styles is silly and needlessly limits creativity.


I think getting upset because random people from across the globe choose to play a customized character in a game that promotes customization is a wasted effort.

A minority of players on forums do not in any way represent the actual facts on the ground in-game.
For every poster that complains about something, there are a roughly equal number of posters who argue the counterpoint, especially when you take into account the sum of ALL threads on the subject, not just the most recent one.
This debate (and MANY others) have been done to death. Alot of posters take one look at the thread, see it is the same old debate, and just close it without commenting. To assume they dont support one side or the other is incorrect; they are just tired of participating in the same pointless debate over and over, when the end result will be the same. One side will insist their side is the only correct thing, and the other will do the same, and very few will be willing to compromise or see the middle ground. All of them being only a small random sampling of the actual playerbase.

I simply have not yet joined the ranks of those who are bored with this silly debate -- yet.

EDIT: First on 30 Touchdown!

[KillEveryone]

A minority of players on forums do not in any way represent the actual facts on the ground in-game.

Same can be said about those that say arcanes should have haste.

[varusso]

People can expect whatever they want. If they boot/squelch/ban for life people who have built a character outside of your expectations, and that alone causes you to deem them "selfish", that is the very definition of an elitist attitude. People not conforming to what you or others expect them to be and being shunned for it is elitism.

There's a big difference between someone encountering a cleric who is not specced for healing and saying, "Hmmm, that's odd" and someone who encounters the same cleric and says, "A cleric without Empowered Healing?! You must be a selfish, elitist jerk! I'm never grouping with you and you are now on my banned list!"

The first person would be normal. The second person would be the elitist.

Once again, not what i said.
If the group is looking for something specific, and you cannot provide it, they have the right to deny you. If you consistently cannot provide it, they have the right to consistently deny you. If they are in a group with other people who are looking for the same thing, they have the right to advise the party leader/friends/guildies to deny you. You will never provide whatever it is they are looking for, so they have no reason to ever add you when they are looking for it. They may or may not let you in when they have 'extra' party spots; that is entirely their choice, just as it was YOUR choice to not provide whatever they were looking for.

No one else is responsible for your choices. No one else is required in any way to provide you with a forum for showcasing/testing/playing your build choices. You are not REQUIRED to provide whatever it is the group wants, but they are not REQUIRED to accept you if you do not, regardless of whatever else you may bring to the table.

The RIGHT to make your own choices goes both ways. And there is nothing ELITIST about a group choosing not to deal with the choices YOU made.

[Cyr]

Same can be said about those that say arcanes should have haste.

Hold on there.

That would be a pretty gross miscalculation of what people are saying. Even most of those who want to play the game of "Don't tell me what to do it's my toon" state pretty clearly that they do indeed carry haste themselves. They seem to think it's a good idea for themselves, but are balking at the idea of someone else saying hey it's a pretty bad idea not to have the standards covered.

Feel free to hop into raid groups on your home server and seriously ask people on your level 18-20 arcane if they think you should have haste memorized and see if it comes out as a minority.

[Missing_Minds]

Feel free to hop into raid groups on your home server and seriously ask people on your level 18-20 arcane if they think you should have haste memorized and see if it comes out as a minority.

Survey rage also, as that seems to be in contention.

varusso: Grats on the first 30.

[varusso]

Survey rage also, as that seems to be in contention.

varusso: Grats on the first 30.

Thanks
I believe the result will be almost unanimous for haste, a but there will be a few holdouts on rage. More will vote FOR rage than against, though. In fact, I am going to try a "thought experiment" in game. Be back shortly.

[muffinlad]

Same can be said about those that say arcanes should have haste.

It's not wrong to not take haste, that is a player choice.

It is wrong to think that only a minority of players want arcanes to carry haste, and only people on the forums which feel that they should. The vocal minority of arcanes that constantly complain about being Hastebots would serve as the first indication of that not being true.

I am not even sure that is exactly what you meant to say, as it is so far divorced from actual game-play that I would have to assume you are pulling my leg. (or I have completely confused myself as to what you are trying to say....)

muffintugg'd

[Postumus]

It's more likely I missed them given the speed this thread is moving. Losing track comes quickly. The other reasonable reply I saw was the specific case of an earth savant but considering they are weak to air that still leaves water and fire options at higher levels.

If I missed your reasons, I apologize and encourage you to quote it or repost it. If it's just 'because they are my spells' then that is you right to defend your right to choose but doesn't actually validate those choices as good.

Can't imagine how you could miss my important post in a 30 (almost there) page thread!


First off, I'm not talking about Haste so perhaps this is moot for you. I'm talking specifically about Rage.


From levels 6-10 my sorc is definitely not taking Rage over Displacement, Haste, or Prot from Energy.


For levels 11-18 or so, depending on my build and how frequently I solo vs PUG, I may not take Rage in lieu of Acid Blast, Fireball, Hold Person, Suggestion, Chain Missiles, Frost Lance, Halt Undead, lightning bolt, ray of exhaustion.


After 18 my sorc might take it. But I don't use Rage when I solo, and Rage is usually carried by the Bard or Wiz in any given group, so using one of my sorc's four slots on a redundant spell would be a waste. AND it comes in pots.


Rage, like nearly every other spell, is situational. I've never been blacklisted for not carrying it. In fact the exchange, if it even happens, generally goes like this:

Player 1: Can I get Rage?

Me: Sorry man, I don't have that memorized.

Player 1: Np. I have clickies/pots.

[Postumus]

A minority of players on forums do not in any way represent the actual facts on the ground in-game.

Yes, that is my point exactly.

[Chai]

A sweeping generalization based on subjective data is hardly a 'fact.' Unless you are part of a static group or know the other players in your group well, you can't possibly know 'what the group wants' let alone what it's members consider a 'problem' player.

You will find out what they want, real quick. Call it conjecture if you will, but I have never heard someone ask why I dont have any other third level spell racked up. I have heard people ask why I dont have haste and rage racked up. Haste is alot more commonly wanted.

If we want to talk about facts here rather than bantering opinions, what level three spell is more effective at accomplishing quest goals than one that increases melee attack speed and by proxy DPS, for a period of time - minumum of 30 seconds?

Fact: None. Pick that apart however you like. The DPS spells that a caster can have need multiple casts to be anywhere near as effective, and the other level three buffs arent sought after enarly as much as haste.

I am all for character variation, but there are obvious choices that shouldnt even need to be explained. Walk into a melee DPS thread once and say power attack isnt absolutely necessary, - I mean hey, character variation, right? Watch the hilarity ensue. You'd technically be right, you can run any content in this game with it off, but even technically correct, youd likely get LOLed out of the thread.

So no, I dont agree that I couldnt possibly know what other players will want or expect. Some things are just blatently obvious beyond even needing to ask.

I usually dont see poeple harping about the rage buff like they do about haste.

[varusso]

Thanks
I believe the result will be almost unanimous for haste, a but there will be a few holdouts on rage. More will vote FOR rage than against, though. In fact, I am going to try a "thought experiment" in game. Be back shortly.

Well that was fail LOL
Asked in market and crafting hall in gen chat, if arcanes lvl 18+ should carry rage/haste, yes or no answers only in PM. Only a couple people responded, and it sparked the inevitable qualifier debate of what about this or that instead of actual voting. LOL Argo gen chat will be a bit lively for a while now heh

[Postumus]

Thanks
I believe the result will be almost unanimous for haste, a but there will be a few holdouts on rage. More will vote FOR rage than against, though. In fact, I am going to try a "thought experiment" in game. Be back shortly.

Before you go patting yourself on the back, ask your survey population these questions:


1-Would you blacklist a wizard for not having Haste memorized? Yes. Maybe. No.

2-Would you blacklist a sorcerer for not having Haste memorized? Yes. Maybe. No.

3-Would you blacklist a wizard for not having Rage memorized? Yes. Maybe. No.

4-Would you blacklist a sorcerer for not having Rage memorized? Yes. Maybe. No.

5-Do you think every wizard should always have Haste & Rage memorized? Yes. Maybe. No.

6- Do you think every sorcerer should always have Haste & Rage memorized? Yes. Maybe. No.


And, since these have all been answered in this very thread by numerous forum members, you should be able to realize your position has nowhere near the support you seemed to think it had. Rather than recognize there are a number of people who disagree with your 'facts' (as you like to call them), you just contradict them.

[Postumus]

You will find out what they want, real quick. Call it conjecture if you will, but I have never heard someone ask why I dont have any other third level spell racked up. I have heard people ask why I dont have haste and rage racked up. Haste is alot more commonly wanted.

Not sure what your point is, that a lot of people would disagree with my position? Of course they do. But I'm not the one telling everyone else how they should play, nor do I get upset when they play differently than I do. Big difference.


I always carry Haste on every character that can cast it/click it/drink it. I don't carry Rage on the sorc. Never been a problem. Ever.

[grodon9999]

Elitist to expect it? No. It's probably unrealistic to expect it. Especially with newer players.


And yes, the gear a player chooses to wear/use is his/her choice, not yours.

And it's MY choice to kick them from a group. It's not like I'm executing them or pouring sugar in their gas tank.

[azmodeus1]

1-Would you blacklist a wizard for not having Haste memorized? Yes. Maybe. No.

2-Would you blacklist a sorcerer for not having Haste memorized? Yes. Maybe. No.

3-Would you blacklist a wizard for not having Rage memorized? Yes. Maybe. No.

4-Would you blacklist a sorcerer for not having Rage memorized? Yes. Maybe. No.

5-Do you think every wizard should always have Haste & Rage memorized? Yes. Maybe. No.

6- Do you think every sorcerer should always have Haste & Rage memorized? Yes. Maybe. No.

1.no
2.no
3.no
4.no
5.yes
6.yes

and blur or displace and resist elements.

-from a barb's point of veiw. though i 2nd tr'd with 3 mages and an evoker fvs in under two weeks, most quests consisted of me hitting breakables and not dying from dungeon alerts, and gathering mobs with sprint boost/intimidating for aoes. still end game and most raids, there is still not enough arcanes usually to forgo some basic necessities for buffs. eDemonQueen, eCrono, Tod, Hound, Vod...if we started seeing mabye 500% more bluebars, the necessity for such buffs could be debatable.

[varusso]

Before you go patting yourself on the back, ask your survey population these questions:


1-Would you blacklist a wizard for not having Haste memorized? Yes. Maybe. No.

2-Would you blacklist a sorcerer for not having Haste memorized? Yes. Maybe. No.

3-Would you blacklist a wizard for not having Rage memorized? Yes. Maybe. No.

4-Would you blacklist a sorcerer for not having Rage memorized? Yes. Maybe. No.

5-Do you think every wizard should always have Haste & Rage memorized? Yes. Maybe. No.

6- Do you think every sorcerer should always have Haste & Rage memorized? Yes. Maybe. No.


And, since these have all been answered in this very thread by numerous forum members, you should be able to realize your position has nowhere near the support you seemed to think it had. Rather than recognize there are a number of people who disagree with your 'facts' (as you like to call them), you just contradict them.

I dont really care if someone gets blacklisted for that or not. I never said they WOULD get blacklisted. I said that those who WOULD blacklist them have just as much right to do so as the player who refused to slot the spells.

What I DID say was that you should bring those spells as an arcane, as that is what is expected by the majority of the playerbase (which the actual proposed survey would support). And if you choose NOT to do so, then you deal with the consequences, which can range up to blacklisting, because yes there ARE those who will blacklist you for not bringing basic staples. If players will blacklist you for not bringing your own curse pots to VOD or not carrying healing pots in any content, what makes you think they wont do it for rage/haste, or that it is any more or less justified/acceptable?

Would you drop (or stop healing) a lvl 20 melee toon that has no fort?
Would you drop/stop healing a lvl 20 toon that has 200 HP or less in an epic?
Would you drop a rogue that was recruited as the trapmonkey, but consistently failed on the traps?
Would you drop a white hat that was recruited as the healer, but refused to heal?
If you recruit an arcane to finger the ogres in Sleeping Dust, but they dont have the spell?
If you recruit an evasion toon to tank in SOS lava section, and they have a 10 reflex, would you invite them for that role again? Or Crucible?
Pick ANY game mechanic or strategy that you are running, which requires any specific contribution. If they player you recruited FOR THAT does not have it, or even more to the point, refuses to provide it, due to their own build choices, would you ever recruit them for that again?

How are any of these EXPECTED standards different, one from another? How can a player justify refusing to do any of these things, yet claim the group does not have the right to replace them?

Oh and just for the record, in EVERY group I have mentioned this thread since it started, EVERY player has laughed at the mere notion that an arcane should not cast rage/haste. Not a single person has supported the idea that they should NOT. The only hold out was one person who mentioned that sorcs have limited spell choices (the caveat that always comes up). When it was explained that we were talking about shroud-level + groups, that immediately became "oh good lord shut up and slot the spells".

[KillEveryone]

I am not even sure that is exactly what you meant to say, as it is so far divorced from actual game-play that I would have to assume you are pulling my leg. (or I have completely confused myself as to what you are trying to say....)

muffintugg'd

He as saying that a minority of people on the forums do not represent the actual facts.

I'm agreeing, just pointing out that it works on the other side of the argument.

I'm not saying it is wrong for an arcane to take haste, all my arcanes do but I'm also a haste addict.

I also carry pots for those times that an arcane doesn't slot that spell.

My view is that those that say arcanse should carry haste are actually wrong because it is up to the individual player, regardless of what spells are available for that spell level. It doesn't matter what spells there are because a player wants to play with other spells to make themselves happy, they have every right.

The haste on every arcane types are saying that it doesn't matter what spells a player wants to use, they should always make room for haste, damned the happiness of the player playing the arcane.

If they have to have that spell, they need to make sure they have the means to that spell. It comes in pots.

Things delved into an elitist/selfish argument with the "should have haste" people calling those that don't slot is as selfish. My contention is that if you are requiring a person to have a spell, it is selfish to require a player to play their way.

[Missing_Minds]

Thanks
I believe the result will be almost unanimous for haste, a but there will be a few holdouts on rage. More will vote FOR rage than against, though. In fact, I am going to try a "thought experiment" in game. Be back shortly.

Wait... are you going to... *reads further* yeap. *chuckles* Well that beats the inevitable TMNT talks that are about to happen with the next reboot on Nick soon.

I *think* they plan on adding more spells to the game. But even so I still think haste will remain on spell lists. Rage.. I'd not be so certain.

I love my protect energy ablative absorber, but protect energy/element (or mass version) and the other spells for self sufficiency (that I love to be) or pick up something else useful to party/me.... I'm still having a hard time on that call.

[Khurse]

Things delved into an elitist/selfish argument with the "should have haste" people calling those that don't slot is as selfish. My contention is that if you are requiring a person to have a spell, it is selfish to require a player to play their way.

And my contention is that while it's completely their choice on what to take and how to build their toon, it's my right to keep them or boot them from my group.
How can you (and others) contend (unless I'm misunderstanding your argument), that it's completely up to the person on how they want to play their toon, and not selfish of them to build toons that don't provide a party buff, but it's selfish for some of us to suggest that we have the right to play with toons that have haste.

It very much seems there are people here defending one players right to play how they want (not carry/cast haste), but decrying other players from playing how they want (not playing with arcanes who don't carry haste)

It's a bit odd.
And yes,depressing that this has gone on 30 pages.

[Saravis]

Wow these haste debates never end, just imagine what would happen if they introduced improved haste. DDO would explode in a hot air filled tornado of endless debating.