PSA Haste does not waste a valuable spell slot

[varusso]

I disagree.

If there are players who cannot or will not judge other players based on their overall play, but solely on whether they carry a specific buff and/or cast that buff early/often enough, they are being elitist.

Elitism = The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

i.e. - If a person plays an arcane character and either doesn't carry Haste/Rage/whatever or doesn't cast it early enough or often enough, they are obviously not part of the elite "uber" class of "superior" players (apparently defined as 'those who confom to the accepted builds because that's what everyone expects them to do and to do otherwise is to simply show their selfishness and lack of intelligence to everyone else') and they will not be permitted to participate in groups with other "superior" players.

If you were basing your judgment on something substantial, rather than your perception of what spells/skills/gear/feats/whatever a "good" player should have, I don't think it would be elitism. If you "shunned" players who have demonstrated, via their play style in an actual quest or raid, that they are lousy players, that would be reasonable. Booting/squelching/banning for life players who don't conform to specific "cookie cutter" builds, without bothering to first see if they are good players or not, is elitism.

Everyone is, of course, free to be as elitist as they wish to be. I don't think it advances the game or makes it any more fun for anyone if we try to force the game down a road where everyone either conforms to specific builds with specific weapons/buffs/spells/skills/whatever or faces being blacklisted as stupid or selfish players.

You have a severe misconception of what elitist is. Its not elitist to expect someone to carry the BASICS. Its elitist to expect someone to carry TOP TIER gear and have the perfect build and know all there is to know about a quest/class/whatever. And anyone who CANT live up to those expectations is a loser that should quit DDO. THATS elitist. More specifically, the "elitist jerk".

No matter how you try and wiggle out of it, whatever other stellar thing you are doing with your arcane, you can do all that and STILL provide the BASIC spells, rage and haste.

Fortunately, the game allows for differences in playstyles -- you can choose not to group with the folks that dont jibe with you. That goes both ways, and is JUST as fair each way.

[JohnnyDangerously]

I disagree.

If there are players who cannot or will not judge other players based on their overall play, but solely on whether they carry a specific buff and/or cast that buff early/often enough, they are being elitist.

Elitism = The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

i.e. - If a person plays an arcane character and either doesn't carry Haste/Rage/whatever or doesn't cast it early enough or often enough, they are obviously not part of the elite "uber" class of "superior" players (apparently defined as 'those who confom to the accepted builds because that's what everyone expects them to do and to do otherwise is to simply show their selfishness and lack of intelligence to everyone else') and they will not be permitted to participate in groups with other "superior" players.

If you were basing your judgment on something substantial, rather than your perception of what spells/skills/gear/feats/whatever a "good" player should have, I don't think it would be elitism. If you "shunned" players who have demonstrated, via their play style in an actual quest or raid, that they are lousy players, that would be reasonable. Booting/squelching/banning for life players who don't conform to specific "cookie cutter" builds, without bothering to first see if they are good players or not, is elitism.

Everyone is, of course, free to be as elitist as they wish to be. I don't think it advances the game or makes it any more fun for anyone if we try to force the game down a road where everyone either conforms to specific builds with specific weapons/buffs/spells/skills/whatever or faces being blacklisted as stupid or selfish players.

I couldn't agree more. To say that someone deserves to blacklisted based on their lack of 2 specific buffs sounds pretty elitist to me. Yes they are the optimal ones to carry, but that doesn't really matter. You don't have to conform to the STANDARD to be an effective player.

[Ironforge_Clan]

The whole problem is that it actually becomes an "issue" when someone doesn't carry the buffs that "you" want, because in the elitist's eyes its all or nothing. Yes people "should" carry these spells but for it to be such a big deal that they get "blacklisted" based on their lack of two buffs even though they may be one of the best team players out there. Especially when alot of people at that lvl carry the pots, and alot dont mind drinkin them.

I personally love using haste and rage. It's a must have for me. Do I get mad when someone doesnt and im not on my arcane? No because in the end I am here to have fun regardless of which buffs others bring to the table. To alot of us the game is not about how fast we can speed through it, its about enjoying the game and playing with the accepting friendly people.

I disagree.

If there are players who cannot or will not judge other players based on their overall play, but solely on whether they carry a specific buff and/or cast that buff early/often enough, they are being elitist.

Elitism = The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

i.e. - If a person plays an arcane character and either doesn't carry Haste/Rage/whatever or doesn't cast it early enough or often enough, they are obviously not part of the elite "uber" class of "superior" players (apparently defined as 'those who confom to the accepted builds because that's what everyone expects them to do and to do otherwise is to simply show their selfishness and lack of intelligence to everyone else') and they will not be permitted to participate in groups with other "superior" players.

If you were basing your judgment on something substantial, rather than your perception of what spells/skills/gear/feats/whatever a "good" player should have, I don't think it would be elitism. If you "shunned" players who have demonstrated, via their play style in an actual quest or raid, that they are lousy players, that would be reasonable. Booting/squelching/banning for life players who don't conform to specific "cookie cutter" builds, without bothering to first see if they are good players or not, is elitism.

Everyone is, of course, free to be as elitist as they wish to be. I don't think it advances the game or makes it any more fun for anyone if we try to force the game down a road where everyone either conforms to specific builds with specific weapons/buffs/spells/skills/whatever or faces being blacklisted as stupid or selfish players.

Thank you to both of you! You two actually get the argument that I was trying to make yesterday. Unfortunately it will fall on deaf ears and those that don't like it will use their popularity to neg rep here on the forums and blacklist in game. What a great community we have!

[Khurse]

I disagree.

If there are players who cannot or will not judge other players based on their overall play, but solely on whether they carry a specific buff and/or cast that buff early/often enough, they are being elitist.

Elitism = The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

i.e. - If a person plays an arcane character and either doesn't carry Haste/Rage/whatever or doesn't cast it early enough or often enough, they are obviously not part of the elite "uber" class of "superior" players (apparently defined as 'those who confom to the accepted builds because that's what everyone expects them to do and to do otherwise is to simply show their selfishness and lack of intelligence to everyone else') and they will not be permitted to participate in groups with other "superior" players.

If you were basing your judgment on something substantial, rather than your perception of what spells/skills/gear/feats/whatever a "good" player should have, I don't think it would be elitism. If you "shunned" players who have demonstrated, via their play style in an actual quest or raid, that they are lousy players, that would be reasonable. Booting/squelching/banning for life players who don't conform to specific "cookie cutter" builds, without bothering to first see if they are good players or not, is elitism.

Not at all.
Nothing "elitist" about it.

I consider Haste to be such a superior spell to any other for level 3, that if you don't carry it you're being selfish.
-Now I completely agree it's your right to play how you want, but Haste helps the party out enough that if you have the option of carrying it and don't, I don't think you're a team player.
(Again this is endgame play, if you're level 5/6/9whatever and want to throw fireballs instead, more power to you)

No other spell provides as much a DPS boost for the party as Haste in an average raid group. If you decide that it's more important for you to carry an extra Lightning Bolt spell instead of being able to provide that buff for the party, then I don't think you're a team player and I don't want you on my team.

Given my choice between a caster who can Haste the party and do essentially the same personal DPS as a caster who can't Haste the party but has an extra Lightning Bolt to cast at level 18, I'll take the one who has made the build to help the party out every time.
Why?
Because they made the choice to have the ability to help the party out.

[Cyr]

I disagree.

If there are players who cannot or will not judge other players based on their overall play, but solely on whether they carry a specific buff and/or cast that buff early/often enough, they are being elitist.

Elitism = The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

i.e. - If a person plays an arcane character and either doesn't carry Haste/Rage/whatever or doesn't cast it early enough or often enough, they are obviously not part of the elite "uber" class of "superior" players (apparently defined as 'those who confom to the accepted builds because that's what everyone expects them to do and to do otherwise is to simply show their selfishness and lack of intelligence to everyone else') and they will not be permitted to participate in groups with other "superior" players.

If you were basing your judgment on something substantial, rather than your perception of what spells/skills/gear/feats/whatever a "good" player should have, I don't think it would be elitism. If you "shunned" players who have demonstrated, via their play style in an actual quest or raid, that they are lousy players, that would be reasonable. Booting/squelching/banning for life players who don't conform to specific "cookie cutter" builds, without bothering to first see if they are good players or not, is elitism.

Everyone is, of course, free to be as elitist as they wish to be. I don't think it advances the game or makes it any more fun for anyone if we try to force the game down a road where everyone either conforms to specific builds with specific weapons/buffs/spells/skills/whatever or faces being blacklisted as stupid or selfish players.

Expecting the basics from someone is not being an elitist. Your coworkers are not being elitists because they expect you to show up on time and pull out the right tool for the job. They are just expecting the basics from you. Just like your boss is not an elitist when he gets complaints from them and decides to lay you off because you keep on pulling out a saw to hammer in nails.

Expecting them to carry the party, serve you tea afterwards, and bow and scrape because you call yourself Duke Cyr is.

Note all references to 'you' are not meant as a specific reference to the quoted poster and instead are a generic descriptor.

[KillEveryone]

Not at all.
Nothing "elitist" about it.

I consider Haste to be such a superior spell to any other for level 3, that if you don't carry it you're being selfish.

Who is really being selfish?

It isn't the person that doesn't have haste.

It is the person that says they have to have haste.

It is the person that says they have to set their character up the "standard" way.

It isn't the person that doesn't load haste.

You people that say casters should load haste toss around selfish but really you are all the ones being selfish in your requirements.

It is an elitist and selfish attitude that you people are propagating.

[Missing_Minds]

*munches popcorn* wonder if it will make it to page 30.

[Cam_Neely]

*munches popcorn* wonder if it will make it to page 30.

my guess is yes... if it does not get locked

People keep saying the same thing over and over, while not listening to the other side. Most posters are just saying things to get a rise out of others.

95% of people would agree with concise statement about this, but the 5% are vocal.

[grodon9999]

It is an elitist and selfish attitude that you people are propagating.

Regardless, and arcane is still a useless waste of a party-slot if they won't haste the melee.

[mobrien316]

In my opinion, anyone who chooses to boot/squelch/ban for life any other player WITHOUT playing with them first, based on nothing more than their choice of build/spells/gear/whatever is, by definition, prejudiced and elitist.

If you encounter, for example, an 18th level sorcerer without Haste, is it really impossible for that sorcerer to contribute to the party? Is it impossible for him to be an asset rather than a drag on the party? Are you so elitist that you will only group with people that can complete XYZ quest in 7 minutes, rather than 9 minutes? Do you really believe that grouping with anyone other than the most optimally-built characters will somehow be less fun?

My sorcerer carries Haste and I cast it on party members. But it is ridiculous to assume that, if he didn't, he would not be an asset to the party.

It is easy enough to discern whether a particular player is a good player or not. Are you so uber that it would somehow devalue your character if they quested with someone who didn't have what you or anyone else thought was the "accepted" build for their character?

BTW, the "you" in this post is generic, not directed at anyone in particular.

[grodon9999]

my guess is yes... if it does not get locked

People keep saying the same thing over and over, while not listening to the other side. Most posters are just saying things to get a rise out of others.

95% of people would agree with concise statement about this, but the 5% are vocal.

i don't think this will get locked, people have been surprisingly civil and have refrained from the personal attacks.

[Vellrad]

*munches popcorn* wonder if it will make it to page 30.

Probably there will be more posts here than in 'Cupkake musketeers sign in'

[Truga]

Regardless, and arcane is still a useless waste of a party-slot if they won't haste the melee.

Never needed haste on my caster (and I bring it anyway). I think the problem isn't with people not bringing haste, but people not being sorcerers! If everyone was sorcerer, noone would need haste, and the problem is gone!

[grodon9999]

In my opinion, anyone who chooses to boot/squelch/ban for life any other player WITHOUT playing with them first, based on nothing more than their choice of build/spells/gear/whatever is, by definition, prejudiced and elitist.

yes, i'll wear those words as a badge of honor. If keeping a minimal-level of competence-expectation makes me an elitist than so be it.

If you encounter, for example, an 18th level sorcerer without Haste, is it really impossible for that sorcerer to contribute to the party? Is it impossible for him to be an asset rather than a drag on the party? Are you so elitist that you will only group with people that can complete XYZ quest in 7 minutes, rather than 9 minutes? Do you really believe that grouping with anyone other than the most optimally-built characters will somehow be less fun?

I wouldn't know because I'll kick them out of the group because I'm just not going to waste my time on somebody that silly.

Look, nobody is saying you should be a buff-bot and "Axer-package" every melee. But there are things we all have to do. I won't run with a divine that won't heal, a bard that won't sing, a melee who won't fight, and a caster who won't haste.

This of course is talking about end-game, leveling up is a different story.

My sorcerer carries Haste and I cast it on party members. But it is ridiculous to assume that, if he didn't, he would not be an asset to the party.

he wouldn't be nearly as useful as a sorc who DID keep everyone hasted.

It is easy enough to discern whether a particular player is a good player or not. Are you so uber that it would somehow devalue your character if they quested with someone who didn't have what you or anyone else thought was the "accepted" build for their character?

If they aren't going to contribute more than an empty party slot (thank you dungeon-scaling . . .) why bring them at all? I can get a hireling-caster to haste the party instead.

[grodon9999]

Who is really being selfish?

It isn't the person that doesn't have haste.

It is the person that says they have to have haste.

It is the person that says they have to set their character up the "standard" way.

It isn't the person that doesn't load haste.

You people that say casters should load haste toss around selfish but really you are all the ones being selfish in your requirements.

It is an elitist and selfish attitude that you people are propagating.

So is it selfish for a player to ask for ANY buffs at all? Seriously?

[KillEveryone]

So is it selfish for a player to ask for ANY buffs at all? Seriously?

I have no problems with buffing.

It is selfish for a player to require someone else set their character up "standard."

If a player has a particular spell, great, if not, oh well. I'm not going to get bent out of shape and rage on the forums about it.

[mobrien316]

If they aren't going to contribute more than an empty party slot (thank you dungeon-scaling . . .) why bring them at all? I can get a hireling-caster to haste the party instead.

Really?

You are seriously claiming that you would rather have one of the broken-AI hirelings in your party instead of a player-controlled sorcerer without Haste? A sorcerer without Haste is "an empty party slot" and better replaced with one of the idiot hirelings? Really?

That is completely and utterly ridiculous.

I can't see any reasonable party leaders saying, "Well, we could allow a sorcerer, who will get 50-70% of the kill count, but who doesn't have Haste, to join the party, or we could hire a sorcerer with an IQ of 13 who will either stand there and do nothing except caste Haste when I tell him to, or will randomly cast spells with no regard to immunities or vulnerabilities until he is out of SP, which will be about sixty seconds after we start the quest. Hmmmm... Let me think.... Yeah, let's boot the player and go with the hireling."

[Missing_Minds]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=324998

And in some areas, extended haste and rage is being required. HA!

[varusso]

OK one more time: It is NOT elitist to expect someone to carry BASIC things into a group. That word does not mean what you apparently think it means. See my last couple of posts for what it ACTUALLY means.

Here is the actual fact: If YOU cannot be bothered to bring the basic spells and gear expected of you when you jump in a group, YOU are the one being difficult and being a jerk, NOT the group. There are spells and items that I carry that I do not personally use when in groups, but I bring them ANYWAY because I know the GROUP will want or need them. If you dont have the resources (IE too low lvl or cant afford something) that is one thing. We are talking about basic spells that you have plenty of spell slots for. The only way you would NOT have room for them in ANY build would be to deliberately build in such a way so as not to have them -- in which case you are not thinking about the group, therefor you are not WANTED in the group.

Once again, if you are not willing to put the group ahead of yourself, then anyone who does not want to group with you as a result of that is fully entitled to do so. Yes, carrying basic spells such as rage and haste is one of those things. You can do whatever else you want on your toon and STILL bring the red n green.

And for what its worth, the person who insists they are going to do their own thing, regardless of how it impacts the group, and says things like "if you want X then suck a pot" -- yeah THAT guy is much closer to the definition of an elitist (specifically an elitist JERK) than the guy who asks you to bring basic expectations to the group.

[KillEveryone]

OK one more time: It is NOT elitist to expect someone to carry BASIC things into a group. That word does not mean what you apparently think it means. See my last couple of posts for what it ACTUALLY means.

Here is the actual fact: If YOU cannot be bothered to bring the basic spells and gear expected of you when you jump in a group, YOU are the one being difficult and being a jerk, NOT the group. There are spells and items that I carry that I do not personally use when in groups, but I bring them ANYWAY because I know the GROUP will want or need them. If you dont have the resources (IE too low lvl or cant afford something) that is one thing. We are talking about basic spells that you have plenty of spell slots for. The only way you would NOT have room for them in ANY build would be to deliberately build in such a way so as not to have them -- in which case you are not thinking about the group, therefor you are not WANTED in the group.

Once again, if you are not willing to put the group ahead of yourself, then anyone who does not want to group with you as a result of that is fully entitled to do so. Yes, carrying basic spells such as rage and haste is one of those things. You can do whatever else you want on your toon and STILL bring the red n green.

And for what its worth, the person who insists they are going to do their own thing, regardless of how it impacts the group, and says things like "if you want X then suck a pot" -- yeah THAT guy is much closer to the definition of an elitist (specifically an elitist JERK) than the guy who asks you to bring basic expectations to the group.

Who really decided there are basic spells? Majority? There is a majority of people on this current planet that believe in some really far fetched idea(forums rules prohibit posting it) but that doesn't make them right.

It is an elitist attitude to expect someone to build according to your ideals.