PSA Haste does not waste a valuable spell slot

[KillEveryone]

Actually it is a guarantee.

So, all those wipes when I casted haste and rage were supposed to be a guarantee?

What game are you playing?

[grodon9999]

Weak, very weak. And FYI, the better players are those that aren't dependent upon crutches while still getting the job done with minimal resource usage.

yes, we are. Thank you very much.

Now haste and rage me

[grodon9999]

So, all those wipes when I casted haste and rage were supposed to be a guarantee?

What game are you playing?

I'm sure those wipes would have happened regardless, do you think otherwise?

[arch0njw]

Bottom-line, you do what works for you and your gang to accomplish the goal. If you can all slot toothpicks and pickle-forks and kill a CR6^6[1] Dracolich[2], more power to you. You're doing it "right".

If you slot the "best" spells and get killed by a CR0.5 Kobold... you're doing it _wrong_.

---
[1] If I ever saw a CR rating like that (1) I would wet myself and (2) I would expect to die in Technicolor[tm] with Skittles[tm] flying out of my ears.

[2] To my knowledge, they don't exist in DDO yet. Sorry to get anyone's hopes up.

[phillymiket]

So lets look at the "fraction" shall we?

Jump 10 sp x 6 (60)
Nightshield/shield 10sp x 1 (10)
blur 15sp x 6 (90)
Resist Energy 15 sp x5 x6 (150)
haste 20sp x1 (20)
rage 20sp x1 (20)
mass protect energy 35 x1 (I think it is a lvl 6, I forget) (35)
stoneskin 25 x6 (150)
Greater Hero 35 x6 (210)

Let me get this straight.
You are giving jump, stoneskin and all six resist types to every single player in the group but then getting shy with the haste?

People will ask for jump if they need it.
Stoneskin isn't really expected.
Tell people to let you know if they need a resist. (many have ship buffs and you don't need to cast but one or two for any one quest usually - if you don't know which ones are needed, ask)
Mass-proc is less useful then Haste and a divine can cast if you are using to much SP buffing.

Good thing you aren't making the most extreme case possible.
I'm surprised you didn't list Merfolk's, Tumble and Grease.

[Ironforge_Clan]

Do you dispute that hasting the melees increases the groups DPS?

If you want to continue to go down this finite path to reach your point you will. BUT you can't say that having haste and rage guarrantees that a quest will go faster and smoother. There are too many variables outside the control of the play. One "Oh Sh!t" moment and it doesn't matter if you have haste or rage. See my point? I know they can help and do help most of the time but to say they are necessary or required is just ridiculous. If a player feels they are necessary or required then they should be ready with clickies or pots.

[KillEveryone]

I'm sure those wipes would have happened regardless, do you think otherwise?

Nope, that is why I was asking how it was a guarantee.

[Missing_Minds]

That's understandable, the OP was talking about level 18+ people though.

Emm? *double check as it has been days, let alone pages* True, true.

I am curious though, is 2 minutes of haste THAT much to change the outcome of trash?

Given the caliber of players posting, I'm pretty certain it means squat. Now against bosses? Sure because they have the HP to stick around longer. But again given the caliber of the posters, aka power and hardcore... wouldn't shroud clickies be sufficient?

I am not suggesting these as a counter to a caster having haste, mearly... why the crying about it when you are that strong? Does the player feel that much less of a player without it?

As for the increased speed, put on 30 striders, the differences is barely noticeable. (I know you didn't make the related statement, but I didn't feel make another post just for that.)

[grodon9999]

If you want to continue to go down this finite path to reach your point you will. BUT you can't say that having haste and rage guarrantees that a quest will go faster and smoother. There are too many variables outside the control of the play. One "Oh Sh!t" moment and it doesn't matter if you have haste or rage. See my point? I know they can help and do help most of the time but to say they are necessary or required is just ridiculous . . .

So 99 times out of a 100 isn't good enough? Seriously? This isn't rocket science, running faster and killing quicker leads to faster completions way more times than it doesn't. Proof? This isn't a friggin court of law.

. . . If a player feels they are necessary or required then they should be ready with clickies or pots.

or bring casters with them that who didn't eat lead-paint chips as a child.

[Indoran]

Is it really too much to ask to have haste and rage and augment the whole group dps cheaply?

it's 15% better dps for melee/ranged and you get to move faster...

Do as you want... but be sure, ppl will notice you not having haste.

It's such an inexpensive way to improve the whole group, this game is not about you... it's about thinking how the TEAM will succeed.

I am just amazed at how our species deviated from being the most cooperative ape to this....

[Enoach]

I believe in asking politely of Wizards and Clerics if they would not mind loading a particular spell that I have found personally through experience to be a benefit to completing a quest.

I believe in asking politely of a Sorcerer or Favor Soul if they have memorized a particular spell that I have found personally through experience to be a benefit to completing a quest.

But, I do put a limit on how much I will ask. I won't plan their entire spell list for them.

Now as pointed out, just because you ask does not mean you will get.

The question is what do you do then? Say No Thanks to them as a member to your party or Figure out a different strategy using the tools you have available.

In the end it is still up to you.
=============================================

@varusso - I find it amusing that you are tauting a STANDARD for Sorcerers during a time when Sorcerers are still experimenting with a new PrE, weighing and balancing out what is beneficial to success and what is a waste. I would say that many have posted here have voiced their opionion that Haste and Rage are very beneficial. As I pointed out in one of my earler posts - a wider divergance between Sorcerer and Wizard is occuring only time will tell how large this gap will become. It may just mean that the player base as a whole will need to change how we precieve a class and the roles it can/will fill.

[MindCake]

BUT you can't say that having haste and rage guarrantees that a quest will go faster and smoother. There are too many variables outside the control of the play.

Nope, that is why I was asking how it was a guarantee.

We're entering the realm of chances so unlikely, that I tend to leave it to loonies calling themselves philosophers...

But riddle me this: when you're hungry, does eating a sandwich guarantees you'll be less hungry?

[Missing_Minds]

yes, we are. Thank you very much.

Now haste and rage me

Yeah, I know you guys are. Of that I've got no doubts.

*casts haste* Don't have rage on my sorc. If I did I would have. Your post amused me.

[Missing_Minds]

Let me get this straight.
You are giving jump, stoneskin and all six resist types to every single player in the group but then getting shy with the haste?

Can't be shy with haste if it isn't loaded. And if you noticed, haste was included.

What I gave was a generic example of buffing, and yes, some players DO demand all of that. I tend to toss out only what makes sense.

[Ironforge_Clan]

So 99 times out of a 100 isn't good enough? Seriously? This isn't rocket science, running faster and killing quicker leads to faster completions way more times than it doesn't. Proof? This isn't a friggin court of law.



or bring casters with them that who didn't eat lead-paint chips as a child.

It happens more than your willing to admit. Besides it doesn't even take something out of the ordinary happening. Just because you have haste doesn't guarrantee your to hit rolls, your damage, etc. Too many variables my friend...therefore...NO GUARRANTEE.

Now the last statement well that is a bit derogatory towards a player that doesn't want to cast haste because some melee is whining.

[KillEveryone]

We're entering the realm of chances so unlikely, that I tend to leave it to loonies calling themselves philosophers...

But riddle me this: when you're hungry, does eating a sandwich guarantees you'll be less hungry?

It can.

I've had some bad sandwiches that promptly came back out.

I've had some really good sandwiches that took another one, then another one an hour later, dreamed about it, had one the next day and still wanted another. I was still hungry for that sandwich.

[Cyr]

Can't be shy with haste if it isn't loaded. And if you noticed, haste was included.

What I gave was a generic example of buffing, and yes, some players DO demand all of that. I tend to toss out only what makes sense.

Yes, but those players will rightly be called out by the same people who will say "haste pls" the moment they see the counter tick under 10 seconds.

[grodon9999]

Emm? *double check as it has been days, let alone pages* True, true.

I am curious though, is 2 minutes of haste THAT much to change the outcome of trash?

Given the caliber of players posting, I'm pretty certain it means squat. Now against bosses? Sure because they have the HP to stick around longer. But again given the caliber of the posters, aka power and hardcore... wouldn't shroud clickies be sufficient?

I am not suggesting these as a counter to a caster having haste, mearly... why the crying about it when you are that strong? Does the player feel that much less of a player without it?

As for the increased speed, put on 30 striders, the differences is barely noticeable. (I know you didn't make the related statement, but I didn't feel make another post just for that.)

Both my rangers have 8 one and a half minute haste-clickies for this reason and I always carry a full stack of pots. They can full-UMD and literally hit themselves with EVERY buff in the game if they need to. Even in epics they blur, haste, GH, and displace themselves as well as self-heal. They are built to do so.

My fighter does not but if he's going to go toe-to-toe with Elite Horoth and make him his ***** everyone else can S.T.F.U. and buff him. He lacks the spells and UMD to get himself with many of the needed buffs. it's just the reality of the toon, but the other stuff he brings to the table more than make up for the fact that others need to spend blue-bar buffing him.

Not everyone has this, not everyone is is rich as we are and we cannot expect them to be able to do what rich power-gamers do. That 90 plat for a 30 second haste is a pitance to us, it means a new player winds up losing money on a quest. You can't have green steel if a toon hasn't run shroud yet. The few SP it costs to haste a low/mid level group is worth it.

What trash are you talking about? We talking about Epic mobs with thousands of HP or GH explorer trash? Haste absolutely makes a huge difference regardless. Just doing Deleras over the weekend it was noticeable murdering stuff hasted or not.

[varusso]

So lets look at the "fraction" shall we?

Jump 10 sp x 6 (60)You are overreaching here. Seldom do you need to cast Jump on more than yourself and the healer
Nightshield/shield 10sp x 1 (10)Absolutely. Stop those bastard force missles. Especially the bugged multi ones. Wish we could cast on others.
blur 15sp x 6 (90) Wonderful spell. Alot of players have gear that includes the blur effect, however.
Resist Energy 15 sp x5 x6 (150)You are overcasting. You rarely need all resists on all toons, or even all resists period. Resists are also the easiest to get, off of several toons. Its rare that the arcane is the only one able to cast it, and when you actually DO need to invest this much in buffing, usually someone else can and will help out -- including the healer. Especially if everyone wants rage and haste throughout the quest.
haste 20sp x1 (20)Green means Go!
rage 20sp x1 (20)Rawr!
mass protect energy 35 x1 (I think it is a lvl 6, I forget) (35)Prot energy is seldom cost effective, as it gets beaten off of you too fast. In select situations its worth casting, but mostly its a waste. Aside from that, mass prot is more often than not carried and cast by the healer. casting by the arcane is pointless.
stoneskin 25 x6 (150) This is like prot vs energy -- not really worth the investment past a certain lvl; it just gets beaten off too fast. It has situational use, and VERY seldom is worth casting on the entire party. Wands will do for these situations, even though their total capacity for damage absorption is less than your cast spell.
Greater Hero 35 x6 (210)Good spell. Wish it had a cheaper, mass version that all arcanes could cast.`
Magic Circle Against EvilLVL 1 Prot vs Evil is a good alternative for yourself. Many divines pack the Circle for the group`
Repair vs ReconstructThis discussion started with shroud lvl toons. Everyone knows low lvl toons (esp sorcs) have to be given some leeway -- at least everyone who expects rage/haste as a stock spell would understand this. By the time you are shroud-ready, you should have access to recon.`

Responses in green.`

[Missing_Minds]

The few SP it costs to haste a low/mid level group is worth it.

What trash are you talking about? We talking about Epic mobs with thousands of HP or GH explorer trash? Haste absolutely makes a huge difference regardless. Just doing Deleras over the weekend it was noticeable murdering stuff hasted or not.

When tossed at the right times, during low levels, I can not dissagree. It can. But depending on the mobs a single fireball could also do the same. There are many ways to reach the same objective. A large difference of opinion comes from the fact that some builds have more options than others. (A fact I'm certain you are aware of)

As for the trash, I was refering to trash found in the 18-20 levels stated in the OP. Haste or not, the trash dies fast. I'm also thinking of parties that are heavy on the melee dps. Parties that are light on the melee dps, haste makes a bigger difference. Or so it has seemed with my observations.