PSA Haste does not waste a valuable spell slot

[Ironforge_Clan]

A smoother, faster completion is best for all parties involved. Does anyone dispute this?

I don't disute that a smoother faster completion is best for everyone but can you provide the proof? Having a sorc that carries haste and/or rage doesn't guarrantee either. Haste has the potential to make a group complete a quest quicker but it is only a potential.

[grodon9999]

I don't disute that a smoother faster completion is best for everyone but can you provide the proof? Having a sorc that carries haste and/or rage doesn't guarrantee either. Haste has the potential to make a group complete a quest quicker but it is only a potential.

Are you being serious or trying to give people a hard time for the sake of giving people a hard time?

[Cam_Neely]

I don't disute that a smoother faster completion is best for everyone but can you provide the proof? Having a sorc that carries haste and/or rage doesn't guarrantee either. Haste has the potential to make a group complete a quest quicker but it is only a potential.

no it does not guarantee it, but you need to compare to a baseline. What third level spell would be lost in favor of haste? Then compare the difference between a sorc having their 4th choice of spell vs having haste. Yes, it has the potential to to go faster and smoother. Much faster and smoother.

I might have missed it, but what are your 4 third level spells, in order of importance, so we know what spell you would have to drop to get haste?

[Ironforge_Clan]

Are you being serious or trying to give people a hard time for the sake of giving people a hard time?

I stated earlier I was merely playing devil's advocate. Yes, my statement was completely serious.

[grodon9999]

I stated earlier I was merely playing devil's advocate. Yes, my statement was completely serious.

Do you dispute that all things being equal more DPS equals faster completion time?

[varusso]

FYI: I responded to some of your other posts in an edit on last post.

I don't disute that a smoother faster completion is best for everyone but can you provide the proof? Having a sorc that carries haste and/or rage doesn't guarrantee either. Haste has the potential to make a group complete a quest quicker but it is only a potential.

Actually it is a guarantee.
If you do the exact same things with haste and without, when you DO have haste, you will do them all faster. Haste is a constant, not a variable; its effects do not change, other than duration. The variable is the players themselves. If you are hitting faster and running faster, along with better reflex saves and AC (marginal but cumulative effects), you WILL complete faster. Again assuming the same actions on both samples. The only way the hasted group would NOT complete faster is if they did something different -- which invalidates that run.

Its not my job to re-educate a moron...its my choice to not caste haste or rage I take the same approach on my healers.

I guess the only reason I'm taking the position I am is because throughout your posts you are stating that something is expected by others and therefore an arcane is supposed to comply otherwise he is wrong, a bad player, whatever. This mindset I totally disagree with. Just because something is expected doesn't make it correct. Nothing more or nothing less.

The reality is if a player doesn't carry any spell for any reason it is a personal choice and therefore can not and should not be deemed wrong or bad. You might not agree with the choice but it isn't yours to make.

If you preach self-sufficiency then it IS your responsibility to help educate the morons. The ones that refuse to learn will die off. The ones that will listen and learn will become better, more self-sufficient players. They arent all morons by choice

..."responsibility' may be the wrong word choice here, but I think you grasp my meaning.

[Ironforge_Clan]

no it does not guarantee it, but you need to compare to a baseline. What third level spell would be lost in favor of haste? Then compare the difference between a sorc having their 4th choice of spell vs having haste. Yes, it has the potential to to go faster and smoother. Much faster and smoother.

I might have missed it, but what are your 4 third level spells, in order of importance, so we know what spell you would have to drop to get haste?

I agree you need a comparison. I would bet that if done legitimately the difference would be negilible. Problem is there is no proof that either spell will make a quest go smoother or faster versus running the same quest without.

For me personally the only spells my sorc (earth savant) does carry are: acid blast, displacement, haste, and rage. No one spell is more important than the other to me.

[Ironforge_Clan]

Do you dispute that all things being equal more DPS equals faster completion time?

Nope

[phillymiket]

I'm just mainly playing devil's advocate here

Maybe this is why there is no argument aside from "stop being so demanding and needy, I can play how i want" being offered.

No one in the thread seems to actually think that Haste is a waste of a spell slot and everyone here carries it.

People only are offering the counter-argument as a proxy to those people who they think may make that choice because they feel they have a right to do so.

Ok. I agree.
People have a right to not carry Haste and have a right to play as they want. People shouldn't be demanding and needy.

Now that that's cleared up.

Can anyone think of a reason why you wouldn't carry Haste?

Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Problem is there is no proof that either spell will make a quest go smoother or faster versus running the same quest without

Wait.
We need proof that going faster makes you go faster?

Of course, a quest's speed is mostly determined by player skill.
But if you turned auto-attack on and started on the portal in the Vale with Haste then the same player turned around and beat the same portal without Haste the Hasted time would be faster, no?
Isn't that proof that that encounter was made faster by Haste?
I agree that 15% faster beat down, in and of itself, isn't huge but that is 15% of combat speed meaning less damage, less healing, less arcane SP dumping (yes Haste can actually SAVE the caster SP at the end of a quest), less shrining = more better.

[grodon9999]

Nope

Do you dispute that hasting the melees increases the groups DPS?

[Cyr]

When you particapate in a group you do what is best for the group. DDO is mostly a group game. It's very hard to justify choices that clearly are less beneficial for the group and are often only justified by "It's how I want to do it leave me alone".

[Missing_Minds]

You make that sound like it's a bad thing.

On my healer I try to keep recitation and holy aura on people as much as possible. better saves means less damage taken means smoother quest. Why would you NOT want that?

I make it sound like it is a bad thing? Review how your attitude has been so far. Do you sound good? Not in my opinion.

Now lets look at that further now.

--------------------

So lets look at the "fraction" shall we?

Jump 10 sp x 6 (60)
Nightshield/shield 10sp x 1 (10)
blur 15sp x 6 (90)
Resist Energy 15 sp x5 x6 (150)
haste 20sp x1 (20)
rage 20sp x1 (20)
mass protect energy 35 x1 (I think it is a lvl 6, I forget) (35)
stoneskin 25 x6 (150)
Greater Hero 35 x6 (210)

So what is this fraction? 745 sp. Not even counting the fact that some players are lazy about their metas so don't turn them off wasting even more SP.

That fraction is about half of a standard wizard SP pool, or a third of a sorcs. This means a good chunk of my ability to have fun (if I'm dps speced) is gone before even starting. Some nice "fraction".

This is literally thousands of points of damage I can no longer do due to your demands of buffs. The game is NOT all about YOU doing dps remember.


Next up, this haste and rage you are demanding. Face it, you aren't asking for it. You are demanding it without being polite about it. These are level 3 spells.
Acid Blast
Fireball
Frost Lance
Lightning Bolt
Protection from Energy
Magic Circle Against Evil
Haste
Rage
Displacement
Ray of Exhaustion
Repair

These are the spells that top that list in no perticular order. I seldom see pugs throwing Protection from Evil and I HATE being commanded, so MC is pretty big to have. Savants at high level will get one of those DPS spells, but wizards/acolyte of the skin do not. So you've got a 50/50 split there just about. So for argument's sake, that is two spells gone. (you want to argue MC, that is fine, considering Ray taken to help debuff bosses. Still two slots taken)

I'm lazy, so chances are darn good I still have Protection from Energy loaded, and I didn't take protection mass. So that is 3 spells.

You get to choose one of those spells you are demanding. I chose haste. Why? I hate "slow" Oh yeah, if I were a WF, you would be SOL until higher level because I'd be choosing repair over haste. But at the higher level I'd ditch that repair for haste as I'd have reconstruct.

-----------------------------------------

Now, this said, the SLAs have done a great job to allow us to toss buffs and still do DPS, providing what we (yes we, the team) are tackling can be damaged by said element (in the case of damaging SLAs). Meh, that is the choices we make. This can allow for haste, and depending even rage. But not always.

What becomes key is not if a player has or doesn't have spells but why. Belligerent demands and you probably will never get a player to switch. But taking the time to explain things politely and friendly could probably get more people to swap in haste/rage that you so desire. How you come across is important. Getting upset at new and casual players isn't going to score you any points.

Remember, you aren't playing the character, "I" am. You are not paying the bills, "I" am. "I" am here for my fun, not yours, so please, be polite.

Indecently, I've never been tossed mnemonics to help buff. If I had been I'd probably chug them to keep the party in haste/rage. Other wise I'm only going to drop such limited buffs at strategic points. Unlike your ability to swing a weapon without consequences, my sp is limited.

[mobrien316]

MyDDO is buggy, it locks up, it freezes for 6 months or more....but, you can usually tell when that happens. If a quick search shows a featherfall trinket on a melee, I'm going to bet they probably have a seeker trinket which has been swapped. If a bard has a grease wand equipped, I'll guess they have a khopesh, or something that does more damage than a wand. When MyDDO shows a 300 hp capped toon on a third life...then, I wonder. MyDDO is not the be-all end-all, and it's been fraught with error. But, it's improved, and I will use it on my clonk and ask before going into a quest "do you have full fort?" You really shouldn't lie to your cleric about these things..they, before anyone else are going to KNOW. But, it happens. It happens a lot.

You check MyDDO when forming a party to see if people are lying about the gear they have?

That is incredible to me. I cannot imagine doing that myself.

I like completing quests and prefer to avoid wipes as much as the next person, but I can't see interrogating and doing background checks on everyone who joins a party. About the only questions I ask people is if they know the quest and if they have DR-breaking weapons if the quest involves mobs/bosses that require DR-breaking. I have probably asked about Feather Fall items too when running the Pit.

Other than that I don't think I have ever asked about buffs, fortification, spells, or gear. And I can't think of a single instance where my lack of questioning has resulted in less fun for me or the party.

[KillEveryone]

Is a battle cleric dropping a mass cure moderate (centered on himself) and running the aura a healbot? Seriously?
You missed the point completely.


I think it's kinda cute how telling other people to buy potions is the most obvious thing to you, but you flip out at the thought someone would make you buy a wand.
Either way, you missed the point completely.

I too find it cute that you say I should provide haste to you because you don't want to shell out for a haste pot yet tell me I should use a wand.

You also missed the point.

It is my character.

When you pay for my subscription, you can tell me how to play.

[grodon9999]

I make it sound like it is a bad thing? Review how your attitude has been so far. Do you sound good? Not in my opinion.

Now lets look at that further now.

--------------------

So lets look at the "fraction" shall we?

Jump 10 sp x 6 (60)
Nightshield/shield 10sp x 1 (10)
blur 15sp x 6 (90)
Resist Energy 15 sp x5 x6 (150)
haste 20sp x1 (20)
rage 20sp x1 (20)
mass protect energy 35 x1 (I think it is a lvl 6, I forget) (35)
stoneskin 25 x6 (150)
Greater Hero 35 x6 (210)

So what is this fraction? 745 sp. Not even counting the fact that some players are lazy about their metas so don't turn them off wasting even more SP.

That fraction is about half of a standard wizard SP pool, or a third of a sorcs. This means a good chunk of my ability to have fun (if I'm dps speced) is gone before even starting. Some nice "fraction".

This is literally thousands of points of damage I can no longer do due to your demands of buffs. The game is NOT all about YOU doing dps remember.


Next up, this haste and rage you are demanding. Face it, you aren't asking for it. You are demanding it without being polite about it. These are level 3 spells.
Acid Blast
Fireball
Frost Lance
Lightning Bolt
Protection from Energy
Magic Circle Against Evil
Haste
Rage
Displacement
Ray of Exhaustion
Repair

These are the spells that top that list in no perticular order. I seldom see pugs throwing Protection from Evil and I HATE being commanded, so MC is pretty big to have. Savants at high level will get one of those DPS spells, but wizards/acolyte of the skin do not. So you've got a 50/50 split there just about. So for argument's sake, that is two spells gone. (you want to argue MC, that is fine, considering Ray taken to help debuff bosses. Still two slots taken)

I'm lazy, so chances are darn good I still have Protection from Energy loaded, and I didn't take protection mass. So that is 3 spells.

You get to choose one of those spells you are demanding. I chose haste. Why? I hate "slow" Oh yeah, if I were a WF, you would be SOL until higher level because I'd be choosing repair over haste. But at the higher level I'd ditch that repair for haste as I'd have reconstruct.

-----------------------------------------

Now, this said, the SLAs have done a great job to allow us to toss buffs and still do DPS, providing what we (yes we, the team) are tackling can be damaged by said element (in the case of damaging SLAs). Meh, that is the choices we make. This can allow for haste, and depending even rage. But not always.

What becomes key is not if a player has or doesn't have spells but why. Belligerent demands and you probably will never get a player to switch. But taking the time to explain things politely and friendly could probably get more people to swap in haste/rage that you so desire. How you come across is important. Getting upset at new and casual players isn't going to score you any points.

Remember, you aren't playing the character, "I" am. You are not paying the bills, "I" am. "I" am here for my fun, not yours, so please, be polite.

Indecently, I've never been tossed mnemonics to help buff. If I had been I'd probably chug them to keep the party in haste/rage. Other wise I'm only going to drop such limited buffs at strategic points. Unlike your ability to swing a weapon without consequences, my sp is limited.

Who the hell are you running with that need this many buffs every time you run something. Run with better players, and don't forget to haste and rage them.

[KillEveryone]

No, actually thats not my position.

My position is that these are standard spells expected of an arcane -- expected by the vast majority of the players in the game. The reasons WHY they are expected are as such (and I have provided them multiple times). The chief reason for them is that they facilitate the group as a whole, making the quest easier and quicker, which is the goal of the majority of players in PUGs (those who want MORE challenge tend to solo or pull from a small pool of players for their groups).

The expected attitude is that you give up some of your personal choices when it will benefit the group as a whole. 5-11 players' wants > 1 player's wants. Anyone who doesnt adopt that attitude IS by definition being selfish. If you feel that your personal choice for a lvl 3 spell is somehow MORE beneficial (to the group) than these spells, then explain it. Explain how it is NOT selfish to use that spell instead. If your only response is "my spells, my choice, suck a pot" that *IS* selfish. That in no way benefits the group.

If your contention is that your lvl 3 DPS spell is SO POWERFUL that it outweighs the group benefit of rage and haste, then you are either sorely lacking in understanding of game mechanics, or you are in a group that REALLY sucks in terms of overall performance.

The only exception to this I have seen so far in the thread is the one person who is an earth savant --having the extra acid blast is highly beneficial to them (and to the group) because they dont have alot of higher lvl spell choices for acid. But even carrying the extra acid blast leaves them room for rage, haste, and displacement. So that really isnt a conflict unless they choose yet ANOTHER lvl 3 spell.

The fact is, you can pack both spells on a lvl 11+ sorc, and still have 2 other spell choices to play with. You can bring the spells that a party wants and STILL choose 2 more toys. The question has been asked MANY times -- what spells would you choose instead, and WHY? Childish retorts like "my choice, deal with it" do not in any way contribute positively to the discussion.

Actually, your position is that I should play your way and just deal with it.

My character is my character is totally relevant to the discussion. If you pay for my subscription, then you can tell me how to play my character.

As to any spells I'd take, my opinion would be invalid. I'm an admitted haste junkie and will always find a way to fit it in.

[Ironforge_Clan]

FYI: I responded to some of your other posts in an edit on last post.



Actually it is a guarantee.
If you do the exact same things with haste and without, when you DO have haste, you will do them all faster. Haste is a constant, not a variable; its effects do not change, other than duration. The variable is the players themselves. If you are hitting faster and running faster, along with better reflex saves and AC (marginal but cumulative effects), you WILL complete faster. Again assuming the same actions on both samples. The only way the hasted group would NOT complete faster is if they did something different -- which invalidates that run.

Sorry Varusso it isn't guarranteed. There are variable outside the control of the player that will and can affect the outcome. All it takes is one failed save at a key moment in time to the healer and that can me the difference between a quick smooth run and a complete wipe. Haste and rage won't mean squat in that type of situation and therefore I still maintain that while helpful they aren't a guarrantee.

If you preach self-sufficiency then it IS your responsibility to help educate the morons. The ones that refuse to learn will die off. The ones that will listen and learn will become better, more self-sufficient players. They arent all morons by choice

..."responsibility' may be the wrong word choice here, but I think you grasp my meaning.

First of all I don't preach anything. Self sufficiency is what I practice.

I have no responsibility to educate a moron. I signed no agreement that stated I had to. I would agree that it MIGHT be in my best interest to educate a moron but I tend to always recall the old saying: "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink". After almost 5 years I've come across too many thirsty horses.

[Missing_Minds]

Can anyone think of a reason why you wouldn't carry Haste?

As implied in my previous post. Character level.

At the early stages of being a caster haste is LAST on my list, but it would probalby still end up there at some point.

Granted, bards are a different story. Both haste and rage make my list, and typically are taken much earlier than arcane as far as spell choices go.

[grodon9999]

As implied in my previous post. Character level.

At the early stages of being a caster haste is LAST on my list, but it would probalby still end up there at some point.

Granted, bards are a different story. Both haste and rage make my list, and typically are taken much earlier than arcane as far as spell choices go.

That's understandable, the OP was talking about level 18+ people though.

[Missing_Minds]

Who the hell are you running with that need this many buffs every time you run something. Run with better players, and don't forget to haste and rage them.

Weak, very weak. And FYI, the better players are those that aren't dependent upon crutches while still getting the job done with minimal resource usage.