PSA Haste does not waste a valuable spell slot

[Uska]

I hope you're kidding, right?

Rage is negated as soon as Defensive Stance is activated if you are worried about AC, and it's not like anyone else might be worried by AC otherwise, but everyone enjoys +20 hp at the very least.

no I am not kidding the 20 hp doesnt mean squat to my fighter and to defensive stance I have to use one of my limited ones or switch to another tool bar as I dont have the free one on a bar on my screen I hate having lots of tool bars makes the screen look cluttered and with over a 70 ac my ac does matter a bit and like I said elsewhere my casters dont carry the spell

[Aashrym]

When I'm not playing on my Wizard, I have now completely stopped taking sorcerers in my group for any raids or epics (I was initially advised by other people in my group when making epic chrono groups NOT to take a sorc and to wait for a decent Enchantment wizard).

DPS sorcs are mostly useless in epics and high level raids, I'd rather have a Wizard like my own with high 40+ enchantment DCs that carries extend, blur, displacement, rage, haste and resist energy all the time and uses them on his team mates. Sorcs also die a lot, most of them have rubbish HP, whereas most PMs like mine and ones I've come across dont (I joined a normal group for shroud once, and the whole party wiped at harry due to massive lag spikes that the whole group was getting. Harry was down to around 25% HP, and only a level 20 WF pale master was still alive. He chugged a load of major pots, kept himself alive and fiished harry off on his own. Sorcs cant do that).

And of course when I'm on my wizard, I dont take any other casters for epics other than a Bard and Healer (other wizards and sorcerers are fine up until level 20, after that if your not a Wizard with 40+ Enchantment DC, Extend and buffs you really need a re-roll or a TR). Even in Epic Chrono, one enchantment specced wizard, a bard, and two healers is all you need if everyone is playing their class right for an unbelievably easy breeze through the whole thing.

I dont really get what people think is so great about the new savant sorcerers. They run out of SP and cant do anything anymore, die a lot, have weak DCs on spells that actually matter for the end game, and now dont even carry extend or highly useful arcane buffs because they think that their electric loop is 10x more better. A Wizard PM using CCs and spamming necrotic bolt and blast for 0 SP helps a lot more, and they can also built with 40+ enchantment DCs, extend and buffs.

I look for wizards with high necro DC's and enchantment DC's. Good necro DC's are great in epics since U9.

Sorc's can put out a lot of damage fast on bosses these days. The damage bonus plus the reduced hp in epics and SLA's on savants improved their performance there too. To be fair, your PM in the above example chugged pots and a sorc can do that too. WF has reconstruct for self healing or barring that it's much easier to hit UMD on a sorc for heal scrolls.

I don't look at enchantments as the focus anymore. I'm looking for nuking power / death spells plus additional crowd control in a caster. Wizard is still my first choice. That's off topic tho.

[Aashrym]

no I am not kidding the 20 hp doesnt mean squat to my fighter and to defensive stance I have to use one of my limited ones or switch to another tool bar as I dont have the free one on a bar on my screen I hate having lots of tool bars makes the screen look cluttered and with over a 70 ac my ac does matter a bit and like I said elsewhere my casters dont carry the spell

I would warn the casters first if it were me Uska. I can see your point but I would have to say you are in the vast minority. There are very few player who are are concerned about the AC penalty and removing it. You would definitely be someone I would consider the exception to the rule on that one.

[varusso]

no I am not kidding the 20 hp doesnt mean squat to my fighter and to defensive stance I have to use one of my limited ones or switch to another tool bar as I dont have the free one on a bar on my screen I hate having lots of tool bars makes the screen look cluttered and with over a 70 ac my ac does matter a bit and like I said elsewhere my casters dont carry the spell

Yes, rage matters to AC builds. They worked to get their AC that high, and are justified in being upset about any spell that diminishes their work -- of course haste gives you back one of those lost AC

One solution would be to add the ability to click off buffs (but not debuffs). It would still be a PITA to have to click it off every time it is cast, but it at least gives these players options -- not to mention other players who dont want certain buffs <cough> inspire recklessness<cough>. Perhaps even an option in the interface to "auto decline" buffs that have debuff components Might be a tad complicated for devs to add though. Hey lets make it a checkbox with all the buff spells that include a debuff component!! If I am pipe dreaming, may as well dream big!

[Carpone]

And this is the third time telling you that I, and other people playing arcanes, don't care how you rate our spell choices.

If you need Rage for your character to be successful, play a caster, get a clickie, or buy a potion.

Play your arcane however you want.

If you want to be a team player, then two of your third level spells will always be Haste and Rage. Especially in top-heavy melee groups, 15% alacrity, +1 hit/damage and 20 HP is a very nice benefit. Is it required to win any fight? No. But neither are ship buffs, or most other spells in the game. What it does do is reduce the overall time an encounter takes, which means less burden on healers and less time for something to go wrong. I would find it hard to believe anyone who would say "I wish this boss encounter lasted longer" or "I wish melees did less damage on this boss encounter".

[Zachski]

Good heavens...

Suddenly, I see why the original post was made.

I wasn't aware that two level 3 spells could turn a Sorcerer from "fantastic DPS" to "haste/rage bot"

Oh wait, it doesn't.

If you've got redundant spells across different spell levels as a Sorcerer, you're doing it wrong.

Frost Lance should be replaced as soon as you get Polar Ray.

Acid Builds are understandable... but still.

In a party, everyone contributes to the party as they can.

Haste and Rage are never necessary to complete a raid. But then, a Sorcerer's nukes are never necessary, Fighters having 50+ strength is never necessary, a pale master's undead forms are never necessary, a bard's song is never necessary. A Paladin using Divine Sacrifice is never necessary.

They do, however, make everything better. They make fights easier. They help you as well as everyone else.

A sorcerer/wizard refusing to cast haste or rage on the party is like a Bard refusing to sing a song or a Cleric (battle or otherwise) refusing to toss a heal or a Paladin never ever using his Lay On Hands, even on himself.

There's an old adage that's appropriate here...

There is no I in Team.

EDIT: Let me clarify further.

Each class fulfills multiple roles. Some of them can't fill them all, but have the options to pick which ones. Most, however, can fill most roles at once.

Fighter: Physical DPS/CC
Barbarian: Physical DPS/HP Tank
Paladin: Physical DPS/Emergency Healing/Self Buffing
Wizard: Magical DPS/CC/Warforged Healing/Buffing/Trash Killing
Sorcerer: Magical DPS/CC/Warforged Healing/Buffing/Trash Killing/UMD Casting
Cleric: Physical DPS/Magical DPS/CC/Buffing/Healing
Favored Soul: Physical DPS/Magical DPS/CC/Buffing/Healing
Bard: Buffing/Physical DPS/CC/Healing/UMD Casting
Rogue: Physical DPS/Traps/UMD Casting
Ranger: Physical DPS/Self Healing/Versatility (Ranged and Melee)

For a Sorcerer to say "I'm only magical DPS!" is selling themselves short. A Cleric saying "I'm only melee!" is selling themselves short.

You can do many things without sacrificing a tick of magical DPS. Please do them. For your benefit as well as the party's.

[mobrien316]

Completely true.
Now how many quests have you run, where the arcane had neither rage nor haste, and it took longer than it would have, had the arcane had them? All of them.
How many quests have you been in, where the arcane had neither rage/haste and the melees (and pretty much everyone else) all gave a collective sigh/groan of disappointment.
How many quests have you been in where there was NO arcane, and at least one person said "Well this is gonna suck" (specifically referring to lack of rage/haste.

Note that your solo quests and static 'self sufficient' groups do not count.

Interesting note: Most LFMs that say self-sufficient in the notes will still expect the arcane to rage/haste, even though they dont expect a white hat to heal. And they will still expect the rogue to get traps for the bonus, even though they dont wait for the actual disarm itself.

How many times have you run a quest where there were no arcane casters (and thus no way to get Haste except a pot or a clickie) and yet you still had fun? That happens a lot, and it has nothing to do with spells/buffs cast or not cast. It has everything to do with the quality of the people you play with.

How many times have you run a quest where no one cast Haste, either because they didn't have it, didn't want to cast it, or no one stopped to ask for it, and yet you still had fun? That happens a lot, too, and again it has nothing to do with what was cast and everything to do with the people in the group.

I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that casting Haste is not a DPS boost and movement boost for the party - by definition it is. But I don't agree with the philosophy of booting a player and never grouping with him again because you don't believe his build was the uber-est it could be, and therefore he must be selfish and only suited to solo play.

I can't imagine posting an LFM and having a two-weapon fighter with twin battle axes join, and then immediately booting him for being a gimped, selfish, solo-only player because everyone knows khopeshes are mathematically higher in DPS than battle axes. I suppose I could argue that if a figher joins an LFM he should know that everyone expects him to be as mathematically uber as possible, so it is really his own fault for getting booted for not carrying what everyone knows is the best one-handed weapon in the game.

To me, this thread has nothing to do with whether Haste is worthwhile spell to carry... It is. This thread is more about the idea that good players might, for various reasons, build a character which you find to be less than optimal. The fact that they did so does not mean they are not good players.

If you absolutely can't live without a Radiant Servant cleric with completely maxed out healing abilities in your group, is it really so hard to post "Healer needed" in the LFM? Is doing so any more work than booting/squelching/adding to the "banned for life" list a cleric who joins and then says he is only a so-so healer because he is specced out to battle undead?

It seems that, rather than trying to dictate to every other player in the DDO universe what their build should be, it would be far, far easier to simply specify if there is something you want when you post the LFM. Or, as crazy as it sounds, being a little more tolerant when someone joins who doesn't have the build you expected them to have.

If there are players out there who can only have fun if they group with the most uber players who can zerg through every quest in minutes and whose only goal is completion so they can rack up more XP and move on to the next zergfest quest, I can understand that they would have little patience for anyone who is not as awesome as they are. For those players it would certainly make sense that they join or form a guild of like-minded players who have a huge interest in finishing, but so much interest in playing.

[varusso]

blah blah

None of this changes the fact that everyone knows what is expected form their class when they roll it -- that is everyone who is not new to the game, Why should we have to post "need a white hat who heals, an arcane who has rage/haste/buffs/CCs, a melee with decent DPS and HP, a bard who sings, a rogue who can do traps" etc when everyone already KNOWs that is the standard? Even assuming we had room for all that nonsense. The onus is on the person who wants to build something different, to inform the group that they are not a typical build.

Making atypical toons is just fine. Expecting everyone else to live with it when they are expecting something else is not. THAT is a "me me me" attitude. Group > Individual. Either be able to fill the expected role of your toon in a group, or accept the fact that you may be shunned for it. And quit complaining that the entire world wont conform to YOUR rules. Its just not going to happen.

[phillymiket]

To me, this thread has nothing to do with whether Haste is worthwhile spell to carry... It is. This thread is more about the idea that good players might, for various reasons, build a character which you find to be less than optimal. The fact that they did so does not mean they are not good players.

Actually, if you reread the OP, this thread is about Haste not being a waste of a spell slot.

Maybe the thread has gone off on a tangent which is understandable give how amazingly long the thread is for a topic that appears every two weeks but the original intent of the OPs sentiment was to say that the argument that the original poster was hearing that taking Haste wastes a spell slot is false.

Since you stated above that Haste IS a worthwhile spell why not just type "/signed" and be done. (that part is a joke - no offense)

[mobrien316]

And quit complaining that the entire world wont conform to YOUR rules. Its just not going to happen.

Actually, it seems obvious that is what you're doing. It is not what I'm doing.

I'm suggesting that people have an open mind regarding character builds and that the build is far less important than the player. Rather than automatically "shunning" players who don't conform to how you expect them to build their characters, why not try questing with them to see if they are a good player before deciding they are "me me me" selfish players you would never want to quest with?

I don't see how anyone can reasonably characterize that as "complaining that the entire world" is not conforming to my rules.

[Uska]

Yes, rage matters to AC builds. They worked to get their AC that high, and are justified in being upset about any spell that diminishes their work -- of course haste gives you back one of those lost AC

One solution would be to add the ability to click off buffs (but not debuffs). It would still be a PITA to have to click it off every time it is cast, but it at least gives these players options -- not to mention other players who dont want certain buffs <cough> inspire recklessness<cough>. Perhaps even an option in the interface to "auto decline" buffs that have debuff components Might be a tad complicated for devs to add though. Hey lets make it a checkbox with all the buff spells that include a debuff component!! If I am pipe dreaming, may as well dream big!

yes but without the rage with haste I have even more ac

[varusso]

Actually, it seems obvious that is what you're doing. It is not what I'm doing.

I'm suggesting that people have an open mind regarding character builds and that the build is far less important than the player. Rather than automatically "shunning" players who don't conform to how you expect them to build their characters, why not try questing with them to see if they are a good player before deciding they are "me me me" selfish players you would never want to quest with?

I don't see how anyone can reasonably characterize that as "complaining that the entire world" is not conforming to my rules.

Seeing as how the vast majority of players accept that these are the standards (because is is what the vast majority of players expect, thereby MAKING it the standard), and that alternative builds are the exception, no, you are the one doing it. And again, I have said many times that I support everyone's right to play the type of toon they want -- something which you have conveniently turned a blind eye to in order to keep arguing about it. The caveat is that when you are in a GROUP, your personal preferences are superceded by the group as a whole. If you cant or wont abide by that, then play a toon that DOES conform, or go solo -- or get in a static group that shares your views.

Unique or different build and playstyles are fine. But if you are playing a toon or in a manner that is not consistent with the group goals, then the group is not the ones in the wrong here. When you play an alternative build or style, you KNOW you are not playing to what is the accepted norm. You KNOW that most other players will be looking for something you are not providing, They have just as much right to their expectations as you do. Moreso, actually, since you are joining THEIR group.

[varusso]

yes but without the rage with haste I have even more ac

And on an AC build, that certainly matters. However we all know that AC builds are the exception now -- and anyone who has actually tried to build and maintain one knows why. The chances of an AC build being in a random PUG, as opposed to 3+ melees who wold rather have the extra TH, damage, and HP is very very small.

I personally have no problem making reasonable efforts not to rage that guy, just as I will make reasonable efforts to haste the guy who gets glitched. But realistically, its going to take special effort form the AC toon to avoid it too. Especially if he still wants haste

being able to click off buffs would help with that, but still be a PITA.

[goodspeed]

16 pages of I want a buff now slot it hahaha.

[Lycurgus]

The caveat is that when you are in a GROUP, your personal preferences are superceded by the group as a whole.

I agree with this for the most part, with a caveat to your caveat: it can be enjoyable, particularly in a pug, figuring out how to make different toons with different capabilities work together. By and large, though, your typical pug just wants a quick completion and the easiest way to achieve that is relying upon tried and true methods.

It is extremely annoying, though, how much of a one-way street individual commitment to group goals is in the game. You want your divines to heal and your arcanes to buff, fair enough. But, I would guarantee you that virtually every arcane and divine currently playing would like to see the following in melee they group with:

healing amp
heavy fort
500+ hp, bare minimum, no exceptions
some attempt at damage mitigation
grouping up for mass heals/buffs

If you want rage, haste and heals, it's incumbent upon you to make sure you're not making it difficult to provide them, reducing their efficiency, or wasting them by being crit every time you breathe on a mob.

I think if melee conformed to these standards, you'd find arcanes and divines much more agreeable when it came to making sure you had your rage, hjaste, and hjeals. If you AREN'T meeting those standards, as often as not your arcanes and divines would probably be happier carrying you in their backpack to the quest completion rather than wasting spell points keeping you buffed and alive.

[Astraghal]

Melee classes are fast becoming redundant in this game anyway, seeing less arcanes using rage and haste is just a sign of that.

[varusso]

I agree with this for the most part, with a caveat to your caveat: it can be enjoyable, particularly in a pug, figuring out how to make different toons with different capabilities work together. By and large, though, your typical pug just wants a quick completion and the easiest way to achieve that is relying upon tried and true methods.

It is extremely annoying, though, how much of a one-way street individual commitment to group goals is in the game. You want your divines to heal and your arcanes to buff, fair enough. But, I would guarantee you that virtually every arcane and divine currently playing would like to see the following in melee they group with:

healing amp
heavy fort
500+ hp, bare minimum, no exceptions
some attempt at damage mitigation
grouping up for mass heals/buffs

If you want rage, haste and heals, it's incumbent upon you to make sure you're not making it difficult to provide them, reducing their efficiency, or wasting them by being crit every time you breathe on a mob.

I think if melee conformed to these standards, you'd find arcanes and divines much more agreeable when it came to making sure you had your rage, hjaste, and hjeals. If you AREN'T meeting those standards, as often as not your arcanes and divines would probably be happier carrying you in their backpack to the quest completion rather than wasting spell points keeping you buffed and alive.

Absolutely no contest to this. I think variety in builds can add spice to alot of quests. I also know that most pugs look for X out of X class, not Z out of X class. I make oddball builds (like the cleric/rog/wiz I am kicking around), and I fully accept that a significant portion of players will look at that and just go "huh? <decline> But I KNOW that its because it is outside the norm, and I accept that as part of making something different.

Players that demand something, then refuse to sit still for it -- suck up and bust, go get it yourself. If you want rage/haste, stay in range when I cast it on the group. If you want heals, quit running around the corner while i chase you like a lost puppy -- cos I wont. By the same token, I extend the same courtesy to the arcane/healer or suffer without.

If you are an arcane who thinks they are too good to provide rage/haste or a white hat who refuses to heal (in a non-BYOH group), then I dont need you in the group. You can do your own thing while still providing that very basic, very easy function of your class. I just dont see why some people think it is worth throwing a tantrum over.

[phillymiket]

I would guarantee you that virtually every arcane and divine currently playing would like to see the following in melee they group with:

healing amp
heavy fort
500+ hp, bare minimum, no exceptions
some attempt at damage mitigation
grouping up for mass heals/buffs

If you want rage, haste and heals, it's incumbent upon you to make sure you're not making it difficult to provide them, reducing their efficiency, or wasting them by being crit every time you breathe on a mob.

I'm pretty sure most would agree that for the most part capped melee without those things are lacking in fulfilling their role.
(with some exceptions, such as a 1st life monk or ranger may find getting 500+ HP difficult before they are geared or people may not wait for buffs during a easy zerg run.)

Are you suggesting that the sorcs in the shroud mentioned by the OP were driven to not carrying Haste by melee who wouldn't gather when they cast Haste? Maybe, but I doubt it somehow.
Or are you suggesting that not having Heavy Fort etc is currently acceptable for a capped melee?

I think you are making a counter-argument to your own position.
It isn't acceptable for a melee to have 0% fortification.
It is not considered a group friendly build choice.
People will complain if you have no fort.
Replying "Don't tell me how to play my toon!" won't win anyone over.

[varusso]

I'm pretty sure most would agree that for the most part capped melee without those things are lacking in fulfilling their role.
(with some exceptions, such as a 1st life monk or ranger may find getting 500+ HP difficult before they are geared or people may not wait for buffs during a easy zerg run.)

Are you suggesting that the sorcs in the shroud mentioned by the OP were driven to not carrying Haste by melee who wouldn't gather when they cast Haste? Maybe, but I doubt it somehow.
Or are you suggesting that not having Heavy Fort etc is currently acceptable for a capped melee?

I think you are making a counter-argument to your own position.
It isn't acceptable for a melee to have 0% fortification.
It is not considered a group friendly build choice.
People will complain if you have no fort.
Replying "Don't tell me how to play my toon!" won't win anyone over.

I believe what he is referring to is the hypocrisy of some players, namely the melees (or any toon, really) who demand heals, but wont sit still for them and dont properly gear their toons to have good HP and damage mitigation (such as fort). Ditto for the ones who demand rage/haste but refuse to group up when it is cast, then demand it 10 seconds later when theirs runs out.

[phillymiket]

I believe what he is referring to is the hypocrisy of some players, namely the melees (or any toon, really) who demand heals, but wont sit still for them and dont properly gear their toons to have good HP and damage mitigation (such as fort). Ditto for the ones who demand rage/haste but refuse to group up when it is cast, then demand it 10 seconds later when theirs runs out.

Sure, there are those.
There are jerks of all classes and races.

But I don't think that any sorcs are switching in and out Haste as a spell based on who they are pugging with.

They carry it or they don't.
They do/don't have it for the party of inconsiderate, selfish melee and they do/don't have it for the melee that passes major pots to the casters and holds up their end.

I was asking what he was suggesting with the statements.
That melee, as a group, must weed out all of those that disrespect casters before some will carry basic buffs? or what?

I was also pointing out that the point of the elements of a sub-par melee he mentioned actually makes a good argument why casters should carry basic buffs.
Some things are build choices and some things just aren't group friendly.

Nobody is going to argue that a fighter with 250 HP, 0% fort, no DR, no AC and no healing amp is just "playing a unique build" and defend his right to "play the game the way he wants".
Can the fighter have such a build?
Sure.
But nobody will want to group with that fighter and who can blame them?
It's just not party friendly.

Edit - Ok reread you post Lycurgus. I guess you weren't suggesting that sorcs carrying haste was in anyway tied to melee having the basic tools of their class but that they may not cast it for some because of their performance.
Sorry and agreed.
I've certainly been in groups that I've asked to let me buff them a few time to no avail and just given up and Hasted myself only for the remainder of the quest.
I've ignore people who repeatedly wanted to have their own personal fresh haste because they refuse to group up when it was cast.
I've also been in groups on a healer where nobody would wait for deathward or resists and not kicked myself when the died.
I don't beg to buff people and don't chase people down to heal or haste them either.
Again, sorry I misrepresented your post.