PSA Haste does not waste a valuable spell slot

[Postumus]

You can choose whatever you like in your spell slots. No one has the right to MAKE you do anything else. But they DO have the right to tell you to leave their group if you arent going to bring to the table what the group wants/needs from you. Its a two-way street.

Absolutely. And I have yet to be told to leave a group because I didn't have Rage memorized.

So what does that tell you?

[Krinn83]

And this is the third time telling you that I, and other people playing arcanes, don't care how you rate our spell choices.


If you need Rage for your character to be successful, play a caster, get a clickie, or buy a potion.

...or squelch any caster that doesn't carry those spells and look for different ones.
Fortunately, *most* people playing arcanes are capable of seeing why haste and rage are so useful, even for their own character.

It's amusing how you can *fix* my statement [haste/rage being better choices is a fact] without *any* reasoning to the contrary, besides [it's MY spell list, I do what I want], to which I answer [then your spell choice is, as a fact, worse].
Worse/Better for a grouping AND soloing point of view.

And about the thing about multi-quoting, I think there's a forum rule about multi-posting, like you're doing now, being punishable.

Absolutely. And I have yet to be told to leave a group because I didn't have Rage memorized.

So what does that tell you?

That you were lucky so far.

[Aashrym]

And this is the third time telling you that I, and other people playing arcanes, don't care how you rate our spell choices.


If you need Rage for your character to be successful, play a caster, get a clickie, or buy a potion.

How about you tell us how you rate your spells instead? What do you take instead? What makes those better choices?

If you think haste and rage are poor spells choices then back that up and say why. If you don't disagree or can't give a reason why haste and rage are not good choices then I'm unclear what you are debating.

In my experience, playing my characters, haste is not a wasted slot. Rage is not a wasted slot. The alternatives cannot replace them when higher level offensive spells become available. That's not me rating your spells, it's me rating my spells and sharing that information. If you have any concerns over how I'm rating my spells you still have an opportunity to tell us why your choices are better.

Pots and clickies do the trick in a pinch and some have some relatively decent duration. That doesn't replace a good spell.

[Blank_Zero]

Cleric/FVS is expected to heal in a group-environment.
Rogue is expected to do traps.
Bard is expected to have songs/rage/haste.
Barb/fighter/pally are expected to bring DPS and or intim.
Wiz are expected to have rage/haste and a few other buffs, CC, death spells, and some nukes.
Sorc are expected to have rage/haste and a few other buffs, nukes, and possibly situational CCs.
Everyone is expected to have heals/remove curse/remove poison/heavy fort/lots of HP......
This is all standard *in addition* to whatever flavor you are currently working on, on your particular toon.

There are alot of expectations in place for everyone. None of it is rude. Its just how the game is played, particularly once we leave the harbor and market quests behind us. Its like going to a pot-luck dinner party and not bringing a dish.

Rogues should also bring dps.

Intimidate is dead btw

And where are rangers/monks?

[varusso]

Rogues should also bring dps.

Intimidate is dead btw

And where are rangers/monks?

If a rogue brings traps, most non-raid groups dont care if he pikes the rest of the dungeon. Even some raids.
Rangers in the back, monks in the front of course :P
Intim -- that would be the and/OR part.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

The thing that is killing me here....
None of the "my spellbook, my spell choices!!!" crowd have actually risen to the challenge of sharing WHAT spells they think are better than rage and haste (or resist energy or GH). Its as if they are afraid to share, knowing that everyone else will point out how wrong they are. Which, in all honesty IS what will happen. But that very insecurity only highlights the fact that they already KNOW that rage/haste are two of the spells they SHOULD have slotted there.

Alright- since you asked, and so did Krinn:

Acid Blast
Frost Lance
Displace
Haste

That's what I've slotted. I'm acid-specced, and I wanted some cold spells. My preference.
Like I said, I've yet to be declined or booted from a group because I didn't bring rage. I haven't had anyone whine about it in quest. And hey, if it happens...I'll run solo and not think twice about it. No skin off my back.

What's really got me here is that I agree with the OP. I think haste is a must have. I don't feel the same about rage.

[varusso]

Alright- since you asked, and so did Krinn:

Acid Blast
Frost Lance
Displace
Haste

That's what I've slotted. I'm acid-specced, and I wanted some cold spells. My preference.
Like I said, I've yet to be declined or booted from a group because I didn't bring rage. I haven't had anyone whine about it in quest. And hey, if it happens...I'll run solo and not think twice about it. No skin off my back.

What's really got me here is that I agree with the OP. I think haste is a must have. I don't feel the same about rage.

Are you acid spec as in earth savant, or just acid enhancements? Are you capped?

As an earth savant, I can kind of see this one. You dont have alot of one-off direct damage options in acid (the clouds dont count for that), so being able to cycle acid blast and SLA acid blast is very useful. The cold side however...if you are capped, there is polar ray -- which is harder to boost with items, but has no save -- otilukes freezing sphere and cone of cold (easy to augment with items), Also Ice storm, but that has alot of competition in the lvl 4 slot already.

The argument is that haste doesnt take up a lvl 3 slot that is better spent on DPS, because there are better DPS spells available in higher slots (especially with the savant SLAs for an extra lvl 3 DPS slot) -- this statement is currently being extended to rage (rage/haste is pretty much a package deal). Assuming you are capped, why not one of the higher lvl ice spells (which would do more damage and higher reflex DC), freeing up a lvl 3 slot for a group utility spell? If you arent capped -- well its self explanatory

[Gkar]

In honour of this thread my new Wizard...yes you heard me...wizard... will be my first caster never to load haste. I won't even inscribe or learn haste just so people can't tell me to swap to it at the next shrine.

[Lycurgus]

The thing that is killing me here....
None of the "my spellbook, my spell choices!!!" crowd have actually risen to the challenge of sharing WHAT spells they think are better than rage and haste (or resist energy or GH). Its as if they are afraid to share, knowing that everyone else will point out how wrong they are. Which, in all honesty IS what will happen. But that very insecurity only highlights the fact that they already KNOW that rage/haste are two of the spells they SHOULD have slotted there.

I think reasonable arguments could be made to justify deep slumber, hold person, halt undead or repair serious depending on a number of variables. Halt undead, in particular, is very content dependent, but it, along with deep slumber and hold person, provides obvious benefits to the entire party. Your melee may not be doing get +15% dps, but you've essentially negated incoming damage, and, with hold person, they're getting 50% extra damage. Deep slumber becomes particularly viable as a form of crowd control since hypno was nerfed. Repair serious naturally depends on exactly how many forgies are in the group and what other options are available, but my arcane has often been the sole "healer" on the main tank in Amrath, VoD, and ToD where the refresh timer on reconstruct was inadequate to keep up with the incoming damage.

Are these the BEST options available? It's debatable. I think they're viable for certain playstyles, and it requires a degree of short-sightedness to be incapable of seeing their potential benefits to group play.

[varusso]

I think reasonable arguments could be made to justify deep slumber, hold person, halt undead or repair serious depending on a number of variables. Halt undead, in particular, is very content dependent, but it, along with deep slumber and hold person, provides obvious benefits to the entire party. Your melee may not be doing get +15% dps, but you've essentially negated incoming damage, and, with hold person, they're getting 50% extra damage. Deep slumber becomes particularly viable as a form of crowd control since hypno was nerfed. Repair serious naturally depends on exactly how many forgies are in the group and what other options are available, but my arcane has often been the sole "healer" on the main tank in Amrath, VoD, and ToD where the refresh timer on reconstruct was inadequate to keep up with the incoming damage.

Are these the BEST options available? It's debatable. I think they're viable for certain playstyles, and it requires a degree of short-sightedness to be incapable of seeing their potential benefits to group play.

I like slumber, except that web is so annoyingly more effective, especially for a lower lvl spell LOL. Its also persistent, whereas slumber is a one-off effect. Also smacking a webbed mob doesnt wake it up and break the CC. The real focus of the discussion, though, is on higher lvl toons (hence the reasoning that there would be higher lvl damage spells than lvl 3 -- presumably at least lvl 18 to have the savant 3 SLAs), so hold person should be replaced by one of the mass holds. Likewise, Repair is probably going to be replaced by reconstruct -- especially given the likelihood that the sorc himself is prob going to be a WF -- and with the reduced cooldowns and casting times on a sorc -- rarely an issue. Halt Undead -- I load it situationally on my wizzie, but I just dont see loading it on a sorc. In higher lvl content, it just wont land enough to be worth the slot. Now that they ungimped the circle spells, Undeath to Death is a better choice -- though really only for a PM or necro-focused AM. Other than that, standard firewall for undead

There are some situational-use spells here, but in terms of mileage -- none of them stack up to haste and rage. Sorcs have to try and load spells that will see the most use overall, and a couple of 'just in case' spells if they can fit them in. But rage/haste/displacement leave one slot to play around with, so one of these could still be a flavor spell

[DDOisFree]

When I'm not playing on my Wizard, I have now completely stopped taking sorcerers in my group for any raids or epics (I was initially advised by other people in my group when making epic chrono groups NOT to take a sorc and to wait for a decent Enchantment wizard).

DPS sorcs are mostly useless in epics and high level raids, I'd rather have a Wizard like my own with high 40+ enchantment DCs that carries extend, blur, displacement, rage, haste and resist energy all the time and uses them on his team mates. Sorcs also die a lot, most of them have rubbish HP, whereas most PMs like mine and ones I've come across dont (I joined a normal group for shroud once, and the whole party wiped at harry due to massive lag spikes that the whole group was getting. Harry was down to around 25% HP, and only a level 20 WF pale master was still alive. He chugged a load of major pots, kept himself alive and fiished harry off on his own. Sorcs cant do that).

And of course when I'm on my wizard, I dont take any other casters for epics other than a Bard and Healer (other wizards and sorcerers are fine up until level 20, after that if your not a Wizard with 40+ Enchantment DC, Extend and buffs you really need a re-roll or a TR). Even in Epic Chrono, one enchantment specced wizard, a bard, and two healers is all you need if everyone is playing their class right for an unbelievably easy breeze through the whole thing.

I dont really get what people think is so great about the new savant sorcerers. They run out of SP and cant do anything anymore, die a lot, have weak DCs on spells that actually matter for the end game, and now dont even carry extend or highly useful arcane buffs because they think that their electric loop is 10x more better. A Wizard PM using CCs and spamming necrotic bolt and blast for 0 SP helps a lot more, and they can also built with 40+ enchantment DCs, extend and buffs.

[DDOisFree]

Pots and clickies do the trick in a pinch and some have some relatively decent duration. That doesn't replace a good spell.

Healing potions are easilly available, and sorcerers should have enough UMD to use heal scrolls, so the Clerics / FVS dont actually need to cast any heals on the sorcs.

I'm leveling a cleric atm, and tbh if I get an arcane that doesnt use Haste / Blur / GH / Rage at the least, then I dont need to give them any buffs or heals either.

Oh yea, also if they die, then you dont need to res them either. Res Cakes are easilly available too if you want to be ressed.

[Aashrym]

Healing potions are easilly available, and sorcerers should have enough UMD to use heal scrolls, so the Clerics / FVS dont actually need to cast any heals on the sorcs.

I'm leveling a cleric atm, and tbh if I get an arcane that doesnt use Haste / Blur / GH / Rage at the least, then I dont need to give them any buffs or heals either.

Oh yea, also if they die, then you dont need to res them either. Res Cakes are easilly available too if you want to be ressed.

I think I made that comment earlier, lol. If they do like my expectations on their spells they better have no expectations on mine.

[Uska]

I'm further amazed you have no idea how to use the "multi-quote" button.

No offense man, but you realize that you've got like, 6-7 posts that are all yours, on the same page of this thread?

I've said my piece in what I considered to be a very tactful way. I presented the benefits of the spells for the caster, and for the party as a whole. I presented the usefulness of actually casting the spell, versus pots/clickies. I have further said that during leveling, spell slots will vary.

I've yet to see a compelling rebuttal demonstrating the usage of 3rd level spell slots that necessitates carrying something other than Rage and Haste, especially when that still leaves two spell slots.

No need to get angry, or confrontational about this. I'm open to different playstyles - but to be open to them, I'd prefer to be capable of exploring them from the other person's point of view. So far all I've gotten from your posts is "They're my spells, blacklist me, zomg, don't tell me how to play, stop dictating things for me." And.. yes, this isn't a bad stance to have. No one pays your subscription fee for you.

Still.. might not hurt to tell us how your spell selection shapes up, and how you've come to a conclusion that, post Savant III, what 4 spells you find ideal for 3rd level, and why.

I can see not using multiquote I hate it myself as I like to respond to posts as I read them I dont read the whole thread or several posts and then reply I do it as I go along I wish mulitquote didnt even exist as I dont like reading other posts resonded to that well it doesnt mesh well with my way of thinking

[Uska]

Just out of curiosity which quest is it required to have haste/rage in order to complete?

Heck for that matter tell me when did anyone ever fail a quest and then say "man if only we had haste/rage we would have completed"?

I'll answer both questions, none and never.

got the haste dont carry rage on my sorc at least not at this time

[Uska]

Cleric/FVS is expected to heal in a group-environment.
Rogue is expected to do traps.
Bard is expected to have songs/rage/haste.
Barb/fighter/pally are expected to bring DPS and or intim.
Wiz are expected to have rage/haste and a few other buffs, CC, death spells, and some nukes.
Sorc are expected to have rage/haste and a few other buffs, nukes, and possibly situational CCs.
Everyone is expected to have heals/remove curse/remove poison/heavy fort/lots of HP......
This is all standard *in addition* to whatever flavor you are currently working on, on your particular toon.

There are alot of expectations in place for everyone. None of it is rude. Its just how the game is played, particularly once we leave the harbor and market quests behind us. Its like going to a pot-luck dinner party and not bringing a dish.

I dont usualy carry rage and I dont expect anyone else to either and on my fighter I get miffed when its caste without warning me to step away

[Krinn83]

on my fighter I get miffed when its caste without warning me to step away

I hope you're kidding, right?

Rage is negated as soon as Defensive Stance is activated if you are worried about AC, and it's not like anyone else might be worried by AC otherwise, but everyone enjoys +20 hp at the very least.

[Aashrym]

I think reasonable arguments could be made to justify deep slumber, hold person, halt undead or repair serious depending on a number of variables. Halt undead, in particular, is very content dependent, but it, along with deep slumber and hold person, provides obvious benefits to the entire party. Your melee may not be doing get +15% dps, but you've essentially negated incoming damage, and, with hold person, they're getting 50% extra damage. Deep slumber becomes particularly viable as a form of crowd control since hypno was nerfed. Repair serious naturally depends on exactly how many forgies are in the group and what other options are available, but my arcane has often been the sole "healer" on the main tank in Amrath, VoD, and ToD where the refresh timer on reconstruct was inadequate to keep up with the incoming damage.

Are these the BEST options available? It's debatable. I think they're viable for certain playstyles, and it requires a degree of short-sightedness to be incapable of seeing their potential benefits to group play.

All of those spells have can have upgraded versions or better effects, and there is still room for 1 of them when we have 4 slots and take haste, rage, displacement. If I saw an 18th level sorc cast hold person but not rage I would be offering advice. Hold person upgrades to hold monster, mass hold person, mass hold monster.

I like deep slumber but it wouldn't replace one of those other spells for me. And I can still fill a 4th slot with it if I wanted to make an enchantment sorc. I'm more into web for CC and blast things on a sorc these days, but I won't begrudge a sorc who can throw a decent disco ball on his own and blast things.

I don't see an issue with reconstruct being on timer on sorc, but if it is reconstruct scrolls work, and so does letting someone else heal the person (team play ftw). Halt undead maybe but then just give up deep slumber because there are other spells to replace it, like mass hold or a disco ball. Or just kill them with an instant kill spell that's a higher level.

It only turns into an issue if the sorc is trying to branch out in his casting in multiple directions and chooses to ignore team utility while doing so.

[azrael4h]

I've seen a ton of arcanes lately who don't carry Blur, Haste, or Resist Energy.
I hate it, but I deal...

I have a guildy who refused to carry resist energy on his paladin as well, when he hit 8. I told him either swap or do without. He whined incessantly, but never once got a resist from me. I do not waste spell points putting resists energy or any buffs at all on people who can cast them, and should. Especially when there's no reason to NOT take those spells. I think he said he took Angel Skin. I mean, I think my pally has it, but I also took resist energy on her for her first level 2 spell, and wouldn't do anything different on any caster; my Sorc and FvS both took it at 4, Cleric at 3. At level 8, there is no excuse for any class who can cast Resist Energy to not carry it.

My sorc has haste, rage, and displacement. There simply isn't anything better at level 3 to really want to take, when compared to more hp, less incoming damage, and more damage output from the melees (resulting in less incoming damage due to mobs dieing faster). I come from capping a Cleric and a FvS, so in my view damage mitigation is important, and part of that is the simple philosophy: The Best Defense is a Good Offense. I consider Haste and Rage to be offensive spells while in groups (rage is defensive when not, I usually won't bother with haste when not grouping since I have striding).

That said, I've soloed nearly everything that can be on my FvS (melee build) without having haste up, because the pots last too short a time and take too long to down. Rage pots at least last a bit, making them actually viable. Neither spell is remotely required, just optimal, and the trolls who come in here saying they won't group with a caster for not taking them are the same ones who are incapable of actually completing a raid. Won't group with a sorc, fine. I'll take my FvS and go find a group that actually completes, and enjoy the blacklist. There's only a couple raids where piking is acceptable, and you are nothing but a piker who requires people to carry you through everything.

That is my experience; those who exclude classes because of their own ignorance are highly incompetent, and unable to fulfill any role in any group whatsoever. I've grouped with raid leaders who excluded rangers and rogues because they aren't "dps" and failed the raid, and excluded sorcerers because they're "not wizards" and failed the raid. I group with competent leaders, and they always take first 11, with rare exceptions (waiting on high WIS characters for VoN, or a tank for VoD, HoX, and ToD etc). Never a wipe.

[thegreatneil]

When I'm not playing on my Wizard, I have now completely stopped taking sorcerers in my group for any raids or epics (I was initially advised by other people in my group when making epic chrono groups NOT to take a sorc and to wait for a decent Enchantment wizard).

DPS sorcs are mostly useless in epics and high level raids, I'd rather have a Wizard like my own with high 40+ enchantment DCs that carries extend, blur, displacement, rage, haste and resist energy all the time and uses them on his team mates. Sorcs also die a lot, most of them have rubbish HP, whereas most PMs like mine and ones I've come across dont (I joined a normal group for shroud once, and the whole party wiped at harry due to massive lag spikes that the whole group was getting. Harry was down to around 25% HP, and only a level 20 WF pale master was still alive. He chugged a load of major pots, kept himself alive and fiished harry off on his own. Sorcs cant do that).

And of course when I'm on my wizard, I dont take any other casters for epics other than a Bard and Healer (other wizards and sorcerers are fine up until level 20, after that if your not a Wizard with 40+ Enchantment DC, Extend and buffs you really need a re-roll or a TR). Even in Epic Chrono, one enchantment specced wizard, a bard, and two healers is all you need if everyone is playing their class right for an unbelievably easy breeze through the whole thing.

I dont really get what people think is so great about the new savant sorcerers. They run out of SP and cant do anything anymore, die a lot, have weak DCs on spells that actually matter for the end game, and now dont even carry extend or highly useful arcane buffs because they think that their electric loop is 10x more better. A Wizard PM using CCs and spamming necrotic bolt and blast for 0 SP helps a lot more, and they can also built with 40+ enchantment DCs, extend and buffs.

So funny. Do you play DDO?