PSA Haste does not waste a valuable spell slot

[KoboldKiller]

Just out of curiosity which quest is it required to have haste/rage in order to complete?

Heck for that matter tell me when did anyone ever fail a quest and then say "man if only we had haste/rage we would have completed"?

I'll answer both questions, none and never.

[TheDearLeader]

And I'm still amazed that people are still so concerned with what I will or will not carry in MY spell slots.

Maybe if others would worry more about what they do with their alts and less about dictating to others what they should do with theirs these types of arguments wouldn't happen.

These so called "PSA's" are nothing more than a way for someone who thinks they know more than others to dictate what someone should or shouldn't do.

I'm further amazed you have no idea how to use the "multi-quote" button.

No offense man, but you realize that you've got like, 6-7 posts that are all yours, on the same page of this thread?

I've said my piece in what I considered to be a very tactful way. I presented the benefits of the spells for the caster, and for the party as a whole. I presented the usefulness of actually casting the spell, versus pots/clickies. I have further said that during leveling, spell slots will vary.

I've yet to see a compelling rebuttal demonstrating the usage of 3rd level spell slots that necessitates carrying something other than Rage and Haste, especially when that still leaves two spell slots.

No need to get angry, or confrontational about this. I'm open to different playstyles - but to be open to them, I'd prefer to be capable of exploring them from the other person's point of view. So far all I've gotten from your posts is "They're my spells, blacklist me, zomg, don't tell me how to play, stop dictating things for me." And.. yes, this isn't a bad stance to have. No one pays your subscription fee for you.

Still.. might not hurt to tell us how your spell selection shapes up, and how you've come to a conclusion that, post Savant III, what 4 spells you find ideal for 3rd level, and why.

[varusso]

Just out of curiosity which quest is it required to have haste/rage in order to complete?

Heck for that matter tell me when did anyone ever fail a quest and then say "man if only we had haste/rage we would have completed"?

I'll answer both questions, none and never.

Completely true.
Now how many quests have you run, where the arcane had neither rage nor haste, and it took longer than it would have, had the arcane had them? All of them.
How many quests have you been in, where the arcane had neither rage/haste and the melees (and pretty much everyone else) all gave a collective sigh/groan of disappointment.
How many quests have you been in where there was NO arcane, and at least one person said "Well this is gonna suck" (specifically referring to lack of rage/haste.

Note that your solo quests and static 'self sufficient' groups do not count.

Interesting note: Most LFMs that say self-sufficient in the notes will still expect the arcane to rage/haste, even though they dont expect a white hat to heal. And they will still expect the rogue to get traps for the bonus, even though they dont wait for the actual disarm itself.

[Chai]

Just out of curiosity which quest is it required to have haste/rage in order to complete?

Heck for that matter tell me when did anyone ever fail a quest and then say "man if only we had haste/rage we would have completed"?

I'll answer both questions, none and never.

Literally? - never.

By proxy? - I have heard this ALOT. Haste and rage equate to DPS, and raids + epic boss fights etc do fail due to lack of DPS. This is where alot of these arguements about why a sorc should / should not carry haste / rage stem from. Players get into this situation where more DPS would have meant completion, then they figure out what they didnt have that would have helped in that department. Then the sorc moans that their uber 10 hit dice fireballs are better than carrying haste, heh.

By this logic, none of the other level 3 spells are required to complete either. evAr!!!

What level 3 spell in this game cast once equates to the same DPS as two minutes of three similar gear level melee getting a 15% haste boost?

Ill answer that one for you.

None.

[grodon9999]

Just out of curiosity which quest is it required to have haste/rage in order to complete?

Heck for that matter tell me when did anyone ever fail a quest and then say "man if only we had haste/rage we would have completed"?

I'll answer both questions, none and never.

As the same time what's the point of bringing a caster who won't provide these buffs when you can bring someone who is more useful?

[MindCake]

Just out of curiosity which quest is it required to have haste/rage in order to complete?

Heck for that matter tell me when did anyone ever fail a quest and then say "man if only we had haste/rage we would have completed"?

I'll answer both questions, none and never.

Rainbow in the dark. With jump+haste you can jump over the last spike pit. Without them, you need to navigate a Mario sequence through it, which may be difficult for some people. I bet there was at least one instance it was failed because the healers couldn't make the jump without haste.

Just out of curiosity, which quest is required to have fireball/acid splash/whatever 3rd level spell you carry in favor of haste/rage, in order to complete?

Tell me when did anyone ever fail a quest, with a group that included a level 10+ arcane and said "man, if only we had fireball, we could have completed"?

[Aashrym]

Rainbow in the dark. With jump+haste you can jump over the last spike pit. Without them, you need to navigate a Mario sequence through it, which may be difficult for some people. I bet there was at least one instance it was failed because the healers couldn't make the jump without haste.

Just out of curiosity, which quest is required to have fireball/acid splash/whatever 3rd level spell you carry in favor of haste/rage, in order to complete?

Tell me when did anyone ever fail a quest, with a group that included a level 10+ arcane and said "man, if only we had fireball, we could have completed"?

I like your rebuttal. Have some green.

[soulaeon]

Rainbow in the dark. With jump+haste you can jump over the last spike pit. Without them, you need to navigate a Mario sequence through it, which may be difficult for some people. I bet there was at least one instance it was failed because the healers couldn't make the jump without haste.

Actually, there's a trick to doing that, and none require Haste. You can literally walk to the first small pillar, and jump to the next, then to the other side. The arrangement of the pillars is deceptive, and moving too fast or too far can make it more difficult for some people.
Good to know one quest is worth a spell slot in your book

[Krinn83]

Good to know one quest is worth a spell slot in your book

It's actually more like, all of them, so yeah all quests are worth way more than a spell slot in my book.
Every single quest benefits more from having haste/rage than having fireball or any other level 3 spell. This isn't an opinion, this is a fact.

[Kushiel]

It's actually more like, all of them, so yeah all quests are worth way more than a spell slot in my book.
Every single quest benefits more from having haste/rage than having fireball or any other level 3 spell. This isn't an opinion, this is a fact.

Well... if for *whatever* reason, in any given quest - for any given class/experience/level - your *haster* is not having *fun* I think we've well and truly moved from "fact" to mere "opinion" about the value that spell has brought to that quest.

--
Look! A Game - wanna *play* it?
--

[Postumus]

I'm still amazed that people are so concerned about their third level spell slots as Savants.

Me too. I am amazed that someone else not only finds it necessary to dictate what 3rd level spells I choose for my sorcerer, but that they also have the hubris to keep arguing that I am somehow 'wrong' for choosing to design MY RPG character my way.


I'm very happy people who designed DnD or DDO didn't have this attitude since we'd only have four spells available to us, four classes, four stats, and about ten feats.

[Postumus]

It's actually more like, all of them, so yeah all quests are worth way more than a spell slot in my book.
Every single quest benefits more from having haste/rage than having fireball or any other level 3 spell.

This isn't a fact, this is my opinion.

Fixed that for you.

[Postumus]

As the same time what's the point of bringing a caster who won't provide these buffs when you can bring someone who is more useful?

Your lucky the arcane let you tag along... he/she certainly doesn't need your melee to complete the quest.

[varusso]

The thing that is killing me here....
None of the "my spellbook, my spell choices!!!" crowd have actually risen to the challenge of sharing WHAT spells they think are better than rage and haste (or resist energy or GH). Its as if they are afraid to share, knowing that everyone else will point out how wrong they are. Which, in all honesty IS what will happen. But that very insecurity only highlights the fact that they already KNOW that rage/haste are two of the spells they SHOULD have slotted there.

Seriously, we have all given our reasoning for why Rage/Haste should be slotted, yet no one has come forward to defend why something else would be better in those slots. And no, "my spellbook, my choice' is not a reason for why another spell would be BETTER. Here, I will even offer a starting point.

My personal choices in lvl 3 on a sorc:
Rage: Gives +2 STR/CON, -2 AC to everyone in AOE. This means more TH, more Dam, and more HP. Everyone class int the game can benefit from at least one of these. -2 AC really only affects AC builds and toons that are borderline on AC vs the mobs. Certainly it has no real effect on the arcane casting it. The +CON Mod also benefits 3 of the Savant T3 abilities.
Haste: +15% attack speed, +1 to AC, TH, and Reflex, run faster than striders to everyone in the AOE. Again, every class can benefit from this spell in at least one way. If you are casting rage, the +1 AC helps offset the rage AC penalty. Bonus TH and attack speed benefit the non-casters the most (unless you are a caster that likes to tote a wpn for combat too). Extra reflex means less likely to be hit by traps and most AOE damaging spells. Run faster = get to the next fight quicker, more likley to physically dodge distance-based attacks, also, more use out of the timers on your OTHER buffs.Most players much happier when not crawling around instead of running around.
Displacement: Single target, gives 50% miss chance to all incoming physical attacks. This doesnt 'stack' with blur, but it does proc separately. Also procs separately from the incorporeality of a Wraith. This spell is short duration (same as haste) and can be very effective when engaging multiple mobs at once, or boss/mini-boss mobs which have a high TH and hit like a truck when they DO connect. You may not be able to avoid the hit with AC, but with blur and displacement, that successful attack can still miss you. Comes in handy on your tanks and clerics too, in a pinch.
Other LVL 3 spell ...... Doesnt really matter once you have higher lvl spells to choose from and/or savant SLAs. Pick whichever flavor (including DPS) you like the most.

OK Ive shown you mine, now show men yours.

[varusso]

Me too. I am amazed that someone else not only finds it necessary to dictate what 3rd level spells I choose for my sorcerer, but that they also have the hubris to keep arguing that I am somehow 'wrong' for choosing to design MY RPG character my way.


I'm very happy people who designed DnD or DDO didn't have this attitude since we'd only have four spells available to us, four classes, four stats, and about ten feats.

You can choose whatever you like in your spell slots. No one has the right to MAKE you do anything else. But they DO have the right to tell you to leave their group if you arent going to bring to the table what the group wants/needs from you. Its a two-way street.

Sorc: "Dont tell me what I can or cannot put i my spellbook!!!"
PL: "Sure, NP." <kick> "Anyone know an arcane that has rage/haste and is willing to share with the rest of the group?"
Party Member: "Yeah I got a guildie."
PL: "Awesome, have him PM me pls"

[Kushiel]

The thing that is killing me here....
None of the "my spellbook, my spell choices!!!" crowd have actually risen to the challenge of sharing WHAT spells they think are better than rage and haste (or resist energy or GH). Its as if they are afraid to share, knowing that everyone else will point out how wrong they are. Which, in all honesty IS what will happen. But that very insecurity only highlights the fact that they already KNOW that rage/haste are two of the spells they SHOULD have slotted there.

Seriously, we have all given our reasoning for why Rage/Haste should be slotted, yet no one has come forward to defend why something else would be better in those slots. And no, "my spellbook, my choice' is not a reason for why another spell would be BETTER. Here, I will even offer a starting point.

My personal choices in lvl 3 on a sorc:
Rage: Gives +2 STR/CON, -2 AC to everyone in AOE. This means more TH, more Dam, and more HP. Everyone class int the game can benefit from at least one of these. -2 AC really only affects AC builds and toons that are borderline on AC vs the mobs. Certainly it has no real effect on the arcane casting it. The +CON Mod also benefits 3 of the Savant T3 abilities.
Haste: +15% attack speed, +1 to AC, TH, and Reflex, run faster than striders to everyone in the AOE. Again, every class can benefit from this spell in at least one way. If you are casting rage, the +1 AC helps offset the rage AC penalty. Bonus TH and attack speed benefit the non-casters the most (unless you are a caster that likes to tote a wpn for combat too). Extra reflex means less likely to be hit by traps and most AOE damaging spells. Run faster = get to the next fight quicker, more likley to physically dodge distance-based attacks, also, more use out of the timers on your OTHER buffs.Most players much happier when not crawling around instead of running around.
Displacement: Single target, gives 50% miss chance to all incoming physical attacks. This doesnt 'stack' with blur, but it does proc separately. Also procs separately from the incorporeality of a Wraith. This spell is short duration (same as haste) and can be very effective when engaging multiple mobs at once, or boss/mini-boss mobs which have a high TH and hit like a truck when they DO connect. You may not be able to avoid the hit with AC, but with blur and displacement, that successful attack can still miss you. Comes in handy on your tanks and clerics too, in a pinch.
Other LVL 3 spell ...... Doesnt really matter once you have higher lvl spells to choose from and/or savant SLAs. Pick whichever flavor (including DPS) you like the most.

OK Ive shown you mine, now show men yours.

I think I tried to allude to it, or maybe that was in another thread about an issue closely related enough in my mind that I've become confused, but the pieces that fall into place for me for why a *valid* different choice in that slot would be:

-Experimentation (depending on class with x/days before a change permitted)
-Fun

I know that falls way outside the folks arguing for efficiency and max jacking up of DPS and getting to the end of the quest where the XP rolls in and the loot drops like mana from heaven...

...but isn't that what ship buffs are supposed to help with too?! ;-}

Meant to say - Most of my input as been from my own Bards perspective, I've yet to build a Sorc so I probably have a less meaningful input than the actual Sorc builders/players.

[TheDearLeader]

Me too. I am amazed that someone else not only finds it necessary to dictate what 3rd level spells I choose for my sorcerer, but that they also have the hubris to keep arguing that I am somehow 'wrong' for choosing to design MY RPG character my way.

Thanks but...

And I'm still amazed that people are still so concerned with what I will or will not carry in MY spell slots.

It sounded better when it was said a page ago. Mainly because I've already responded to someone saying the exact same thing. But that's cool, I guess you think you're clever.

I've said several times that I'm open to suggestion on the issue - this is at least my second time stating that I've not heard concrete spells that would be better to have, at high levels, in a 3rd level spell slot, other than Haste/Rage.

Fixed that for you.

Your lucky the arcane let you tag along... he/she certainly doesn't need your melee to complete the quest.

Also, the above is how you "Multi-quote." It means you can respond to different people, at one time, without looking like you're Post-padding.

If an Arcane doesn't need a melee, the melee probably doesn't need the arcane. I will add only that if the Arcane doesn't feel like being helpful to the melee, the melee would indeed be better off without the Arcane, and would have gotten more out of [Insert Class Here].

[varusso]

I think I tried to allude to it, or maybe that was in another thread about a issue closely related enough in my mind that I've become confused, but the pieces that fall into place for me for why a *valid* different choice in that slot would be:

-Experimentation (depending on class with x/days before a change permitted)
-Fun

I know that falls way outside the folks arguing for efficiency and max jacking up of DPS and getting to the end of the quest where the XP rolls in and the loot drops like mana from heaven...

...but isn't that was ship buffs are supposed to help with too?! ;-}

Yeah I am really trying to focus on what is "better" than these 2 spells. Even in a solo environment, I would not consider swapping out these spells (once i have 3+ spell slots to use). And by better I dont mean "oooo pretty lights..." Thats all fine and dandy when you are by yourself -- not so much so when 5+ other ppl's gameplay is tied to yours. All we are getting so far is "Cos its MY spells." That really doesnt answer the question I am trying to focus on.

[Postumus]

I've said several times that I'm open to suggestion on the issue - this is at least my second time stating that I've not heard concrete spells that would be better to have, at high levels, in a 3rd level spell slot, other than Haste/Rage.

And this is the third time telling you that I, and other people playing arcanes, don't care how you rate our spell choices.


If you need Rage for your character to be successful, play a caster, get a clickie, or buy a potion.

[Postumus]

Also, the above is how you "Multi-quote." It means you can respond to different people, at one time, without looking like you're Post-padding.

So you not only need to control how other players build their characters, you need to control how they post to the forum as well? Fascinating.