PSA Haste does not waste a valuable spell slot

[Postumus]

Actually this brings up the issue of buffs as a whole.

There are too many people it seems that want WAAY to many buffs, some of which aren't needed.

They want every elemental resist, they want jump, they want <insert any number of buffs here>.

Generally on my sorc I will hand out blur, GH, the appropriate elemental resist, stoneskin if I'm really generous and an initial haste.

I don't carry rage or GH. If I didn't use blur on myself, I might not even carry that. Mainly b/c bards or wizards will have these spells, so the odds are good someone else will have them.


I do cast blur, haste, stoneskin, resists (although someone else usually has it), jump (situationally), and displacement (situationally) on other party members.

[Postumus]

Uh...





So lets sum this up: Rage, from an arcane, is better for you, better for me, better for them, regardless of the class you/me/them happen to be playing at the time, including the arcane currently casting it.

Agree about Haste. Why any player who could cast Haste wouldn't take it is beyond me.


Not Rage.

Rage isn't a bad choice for a spell, and you made some good points why. But Rage is not ALWAYS better for every situation, especially when a Sorcerer can only carry four spells. Haste and Displacement are better than Rage for Sorcs for both solo and team play. That leaves TWO spells a Sorc can memorize, and depending on play style, Rage is not always the best option.


Maybe if I'm capped at 20 and run the same epics over and over, but not everyone plays that way. For raids, you'll probably see a bard or a wizard in the party, so it's unnecessary for the Sorc to carry it.


And while leveling Rage is a situational spell for me. Depending on level, savant line, and quest chain, Chain Missiles, Frost Lance, Ray of Exhaust, Lightning Bolt, Halt Undead, Fireball, Acid Blast, Prot from Energy, and Hold Person can be better choices and none of those come in pots except Prot from Energy.

[Musouka]

Rage isn't a bad choice for a spell, and you made some good points why. But Rage is not ALWAYS better for every situation, especially when a Sorcerer can only carry four spells. Haste and Displacement are better than Rage for Sorcs for both solo and team play. That leaves TWO spells a Sorc can memorize, and depending on play style, Rage is not always the best option.

I have rage, because I don't want to rely on pots for +1 DC to my earthgrab.

[varusso]

Agree about Haste. Why any player who could cast Haste wouldn't take it is beyond me.


Not Rage.

Rage isn't a bad choice for a spell, and you made some good points why. But Rage is not ALWAYS better for every situation, especially when a Sorcerer can only carry four spells. Haste and Displacement are better than Rage for Sorcs for both solo and team play. That leaves TWO spells a Sorc can memorize, and depending on play style, Rage is not always the best option.


Maybe if I'm capped at 20 and run the same epics over and over, but not everyone plays that way. For raids, you'll probably see a bard or a wizard in the party, so it's unnecessary for the Sorc to carry it.


And while leveling Rage is a situational spell for me. Depending on level, savant line, and quest chain, Chain Missiles, Frost Lance, Ray of Exhaust, Lightning Bolt, Halt Undead, Fireball, Acid Blast, Prot from Energy, and Hold Person can be better choices and none of those come in pots except Prot from Energy.

OK So IIRC, by the time you have 4 lvl 3 spell slots as a sorc, you have to be AT MINIMUM lvl 11, right? That means you have 3 lvl 4 and 2 lvl 5 slots to fill as well. Thats 5 more spell slots with better effects and DCs than the situational spells in lvl 3, in addition to your SLAs. Past that, it only gets better.

At low lvls, a sorc definitely has to make some tough choices in those 'must have' slots. But once you get a few more lvls, those other lvl 3 spells just arent as beneficial as haste/rage/displacement...and that still leaves one more spot for flavor/situational use. A sorc just cant pick a spell for every situation, and they cant swap them out when needed like a wiz, so the sorc has to pick the spell that will have the best benefit in the most situations, then fill whatever other thing they were trying to fill in another spell level slot.

Honestly, looking at the lvl 3 spell list, I cant pick out a single one that is more useful overall (especially at lvl 11+) than those 3, whether in group or solo play, but especially grouping. Especially given the extra DPS slots granted by SLAs.

[TheDearLeader]

Regarding the beholders, it is certainly possible, although everyone concerned *claimed* at the start of the quest to have deathblock items equipped. And I believe Finger of Death is not a guaranteed insta-kill - a fortitude save prevents death.

Regarding the second part, I was not directing the comment at you, since your earlier posts seemed well reasoned and balanced. And throughout this thread I have not disputed the importance of Haste - I have primarily written about my concern with the practice of immediately classifying a player as "gimped" or "selfish" or whatever if they don't have a specific buff/skill/item/whatever.

You're correct, there is a Fort Save. And even anti-magic, no buffs, their Fort save should cover it. Although I would say even a failed save, based on the new rules, would be a hefty sum of negative energy damage. And when I'm around beholders, I seem to roll a hefty number of 1's, if you know what I'm saying.. - again, without deathblock. That's on the melees to have.

And I didn't think you were targeting me with the second part - but I felt it didn't hurt for me to state my "qualifications", so to speak, on the matter.

Agree about Haste. Why any player who could cast Haste wouldn't take it is beyond me.

Not Rage.

Rage isn't a bad choice for a spell, and you made some good points why. But Rage is not ALWAYS better for every situation, especially when a Sorcerer can only carry four spells. Haste and Displacement are better than Rage for Sorcs for both solo and team play. That leaves TWO spells a Sorc can memorize, and depending on play style, Rage is not always the best option.

Funny, many would say that Displacement is the odd man out. Me? I like all three. I'm always Hasted and Raged, and I Displace myself/the party as/when necessary.

I understand the "Spell slot" conundrum quite well - planning out my Water Savant, and losing Protection from Elements to make space for Niac's, was an issue for me for sure.

But let me ask, and I'm only talking about levels 18 and up here: What two spells does a Savant need from the third level spell list that justify lack of Rage?

Maybe if I'm capped at 20 and run the same epics over and over, but not everyone plays that way. For raids, you'll probably see a bard or a wizard in the party, so it's unnecessary for the Sorc to carry it.

And while leveling Rage is a situational spell for me. Depending on level, savant line, and quest chain, Chain Missiles, Frost Lance, Ray of Exhaust, Lightning Bolt, Halt Undead, Fireball, Acid Blast, Prot from Energy, and Hold Person can be better choices and none of those come in pots except Prot from Energy.

Admittedly good spells. I've never bothered with Halt Undead, Ray of Exhaust, or Hold Person, but I'm sure that is playstyle differences - I can understand their efficacy.

I don't think I took Rage on my second life until I got to about level 14... at that point, I think I could swap running into a room and fireballing, with running into a room and DBFing.

Spells while leveling are like gear while leveling - they will come and go. I don't begrudge anyone being on a Sorcerer, and not having Rage, until they're past Savant level III. That's when Rage really starts to matter in all it's aspects (Duration, amount of hit points, tier III ability, increased Fort Saves and the like).

A note toward the "Well the Bard/Wizard can cast it" mindset - true, and false. Why? There's good, and bad to it.

One, you're falling into the "Well someone else will get it" mindset - which has led to me running VoDs with 2x Cleric, or 2x FvS, both over level 18, who had no way to Death Ward a party, or even the tank. It's a slippery slope.
Two, Bards and Wizards have something in common - their spell point pool is smaller than the Sorcerer. A Spellsinger won't hesitate to toss them out, perhaps, but a 16/2/2 Warchanter may be sparse about giving buffs, even moreso in longer raids. And maybe that Warchanter doesn't carry Extend, because it's not increasing their DPS, I dunno. And Wizards... well, a Capstone Wizard, with Extend, will have the best SP efficiency for second Hasted/Raged. But regardless, their pool is smaller, and they may be counting those SP as well.

Very good points - and perhaps it is redundant to have 3 or more party members that can cast the same spell. But I also take into consideration that there are those odd parties where I'm the only proper arcane around. And I like my Rage almost as much as I like my Haste.

[Krinn83]

Haste, Rage and Displacement are must have for any Sorcerer, just like Heal, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement and Mass Heal are must have for Favored Souls.
If you don't conform, you'll perform an ill service to any group you're in, unless they enjoy to complete the quest less efficiently or incur more chances of failure.
Sorcerers have most of their spell slots available for them to fill as they wish, but some are set in stone: Haste, Rage, Displacement, Blur (unless you're willing to keep the party displaced), Knock, Resist Energy, Dimension Door, Greater Heroism. Any sorcerer is rightfully expected to be able to cast those spells when needed. Up to them if using scrolls (for GH it's nice, for DD it's less optimal, Knock from wand is an option) or using spell points, but the latter last longer, have greater effects and can't be dispelled as easily.

That's at most 8 spells. A sorcerer can memorize 32 spells at level 20, so 24 spells left to personal choice.
Don't party at all if you don't have a way to cast those spells at least when you have higher level slots to fill for dps, or don't complain if you won't find any once the rumors about your gimp sorcerers spread out in squelch lists.

[KoboldKiller]

Haste, Rage and Displacement are must have for any Sorcerer, just like Heal, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement and Mass Heal are must have for Favored Souls.
If you don't conform, you'll perform an ill service to any group you're in, unless they enjoy to complete the quest less efficiently or incur more chances of failure.
Sorcerers have most of their spell slots available for them to fill as they wish, but some are set in stone: Haste, Rage, Displacement, Blur (unless you're willing to keep the party displaced), Knock, Resist Energy, Dimension Door, Greater Heroism. Any sorcerer is rightfully expected to be able to cast those spells when needed. Up to them if using scrolls (for GH it's nice, for DD it's less optimal, Knock from wand is an option) or using spell points, but the latter last longer, have greater effects and can't be dispelled as easily.

That's at most 8 spells. A sorcerer can memorize 32 spells at level 20, so 24 spells left to personal choice.
Don't party at all if you don't have a way to cast those spells at least when you have higher level slots to fill for dps, or don't complain if you won't find any once the rumors about your gimp sorcerers spread out in squelch lists.

I hope this post is in jest.

NOBODY is going to tell me what I HAVE to do with MY alt and MY build.

If I don't want to carry rage on MY Sorc then DEAL with it.

As for being gimped because I don't carry BUFF spells YOU think I should carry, then so be it, that's your problem not mine.

[Ironforge_Clan]

I hope this post is in jest.

NOBODY is going to tell me what I HAVE to do with MY alt and MY build.

If I don't want to carry rage on MY Sorc then DEAL with it.

As for being gimped because I don't carry BUFF spells YOU think I should carry, then so be it, that's your problem not mine.

/bow

[Khurse]

NOBODY is going to tell me what I HAVE to do with MY alt and MY build.

If I don't want to carry rage on MY Sorc then DEAL with it.

As for being gimped because I don't carry BUFF spells YOU think I should carry, then so be it, that's your problem not mine.

Wow 12 pages, I am in awe.

In any event-honestly- this attitude is fine.
I don't have an insurmountable huge issue with Arcanes not carrying rage/haste/blur/whatever, or Divines not carrying Dward or heals.I think it's stupid not to, but other obviously disagree and that's their right.

However, be upfront enough when joining parties to admit that you don't carry Haste on your Arcane (or that you refuse to cast it to buff the party) or that you don't heal on your cleric.
That LFM for TOD that has the FVS and Cleric Icons up ,and "Heals" in the message isn't looking for your undead turning speccd muckbane wielding cleric to join. The LFM's looking for an arcane aren't usually there because everyopne wants to see you cast a lightning bolt instead of haste.

A simple message at the start saying "I don't have/cast haste" goes a long way towards letting the party leader know he might want to find someone who does.
Either with you in the party or without.

[Maugrim101]

Some spells are situational and are only handy in some quests. Haste helps a group in every quest I can think of.

Not taking what is probably the most useful spell in the arcane spellbook will make people wonder what other unusual metagaming strategies you intend to bring to help the group complete.

[Ironforge_Clan]

Some spells are situational and are only handy in some quests. Haste helps a group in every quest I can think of.

Not taking what is probably the most useful spell in the arcane spellbook will make people wonder what other unusual metagaming strategies you intend to bring to help the group complete.

I would bet that 99% of arcanes carry the spell....that isn't the real issue. The issue is whether or not they will cast it and why. What was that old addage...be nice to the guy healing you or you won't get healed. In today's game the same can be said about the arcanes. I don't begrudge anyone if they've had enough and tell a needy player to go sod off.

[varusso]

I hope this post is in jest.

NOBODY is going to tell me what I HAVE to do with MY alt and MY build.

If I don't want to carry rage on MY Sorc then DEAL with it.

As for being gimped because I don't carry BUFF spells YOU think I should carry, then so be it, that's your problem not mine.

You are free to build and play however you like, but if you join a GROUP, then you are expected to bring certain things to the table. You know what these things are. If you CHOOSE not to bring them, then that is fine. Be honest about it, and dont be surprised when you are once again looking for a new group and they are looking for a new arcane that GETS the fact that the group play environment requires more than an individualist ME ME ME attitude.

I like to build 'different form norm' toons as well. But it is not the responsibility of 5 random people to make up for the lack of standard spells/abilities that I choose not to bring to their group.

If I see an LFM that is filtered to just accept rogue - even with no notes in the comments, I KNOW they want a trap monkey. If I see a filter to only fvs/cleric, i KNOW they want a healer. If I see a filter to sorc/wiz, I KNOW they want some combination of nukes/CCs/buffs. Those buffs include rage and haste. If I cant provide those things on my toon (regardless of my toon's icon), i KNOW not to click the LFM.

People posting LFMs should not have to pre-qualify everyone that sends a request. Its up to the player who wants IN to bring waht they KNOW is expected of them, or have the courtesy not to waste the group's time. Play what/how you want. But when you join a group, bring what the group needs or stay away.

[Maugrim101]

I would bet that 99% of arcanes carry the spell....that isn't the real issue. The issue is whether or not they will cast it and why. What was that old addage...be nice to the guy healing you or you won't get healed. In today's game the same can be said about the arcanes. I don't begrudge anyone if they've had enough and tell a needy player to go sod off.

Yes, I agree. There are times when Jerky behaviour from one or more people in a group will have people no longer doing things that help each other.

I was just making a general statement that any arcane that doesn't carry the spell will surely raise a few eyebrows in any group he or she joins. Some people on this thread seem to think that not to be the case and that haste potions all round is the way to go.

[Alektronic]

The answer to all complaints/inquiries/issues in DDO.

"Just drink a pot."

-Lecker (warforged barb)

[varusso]

I would bet that 99% of arcanes carry the spell....that isn't the real issue. The issue is whether or not they will cast it and why. What was that old addage...be nice to the guy healing you or you won't get healed. In today's game the same can be said about the arcanes. I don't begrudge anyone if they've had enough and tell a needy player to go sod off.

A jerk is a jerk is a jerk. Regardless of class.

If I rage/haste the party and you didnt get it -- its not because i didnt cast it. Its either because you ran off while we were buffing -- in which case you can suck a pot -- or because of that WONDERFUL glitch that sometimes just doesnt hit one person, due to a .00001 cm difference in the height of the floor or some other nonsense. In which case, I will make a reasonable effort to workaround that glitch by targeting you in a huddle (which usually solves it). In theory, the group understands and is willing to pause for a couple of seconds when its time to refresh rage/haste, rather than me casting it on the fly at choke points (and missing you again due to the glitch).

If however you are the guy that scream haste/rage when there is still 30 secs left, and everyone is scattered, you can suck up and bust. Team play goes both ways. "Come service me" is not team play. "Give something beneficial to the group" is.

By the same token I will boot a healer that refuses to heal. I am not worried about ****ing off the white hat that isnt doing his job anyway. If we are dealing with the same moron who runs off and overpulls and screams for heals, HE will get booted. But if the healer refuses to heal the barb that is doing his job -- and getting beat up for it, like they WILL -- bye bye healer. Same with a rogue that cant/refuses to do traps when he is the only rogue.

And since I am usually the arcane in the party -- rage/haste is rarely an issue

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

You are free to build and play however you like, but if you join a GROUP, then you are expected to bring certain things to the table. You know what these things are. If you CHOOSE not to bring them, then that is fine. Be honest about it, and dont be surprised when you are once again looking for a new group and they are looking for a new arcane that GETS the fact that the group play environment requires more than an individualist ME ME ME attitude.

You know sorcs have limited spells, right? I'm not a buffbot. If someone wants a buff I have, then by all means- but if I wanted that role I'd have played a bard. I'm mostly there to sling damage spells, which is what most groups are expecting.

I have yet to be declined cause I don't have rage, and if I did I'd consider it a close shave with a bad group.

[Krinn83]

You know sorcs have limited spells, right? I'm not a buffbot. If someone wants a buff I have, then by all means- but if I wanted that role I'd have played a bard. I'm mostly there to sling damage spells, which is what most groups are expecting.

I have yet to be declined cause I don't have rage, and if I did I'd consider it a close shave with a bad group.

If that group could choose between your sorc and another one who does have haste and rage, which one do you think they'd choose?
Sorcs have limited spells, sure, but there are PLENTY for rage and haste. So no need to refer to buffbots, that's *very* few slots used for buffs and easily affordable by anyone past level 11 or so.
Which level 3 spells do you carry, out of curiosity, to consider the lack of rage?

[KoboldKiller]

You know sorcs have limited spells, right? I'm not a buffbot. If someone wants a buff I have, then by all means- but if I wanted that role I'd have played a bard. I'm mostly there to sling damage spells, which is what most groups are expecting.

I have yet to be declined cause I don't have rage, and if I did I'd consider it a close shave with a bad group.

Exactly.

Most of the groups I have ran with RARELY ever ask me as a Sorc to buff. They expect that I'm there to put out as much damage as possible and yes the occasional haste.

I can't remember ever being asked for a rage.

[Krinn83]

I can't remember ever being asked for a rage.

Because it should be a given, you shouldn't even ask for haste/rage when you're in a party with an arcane caster, as you wouldn't ask for death ward when you're in party with a divine.

[varusso]

You know sorcs have limited spells, right? I'm not a buffbot. If someone wants a buff I have, then by all means- but if I wanted that role I'd have played a bard. I'm mostly there to sling damage spells, which is what most groups are expecting.

I have yet to be declined cause I don't have rage, and if I did I'd consider it a close shave with a bad group.

No, i was not aware that my capped sorc had limited spell slots. I was also not aware that the introduction of savants effectively gave me more spell slots that were specifically dedicated to DPS, including one in the level 3 range, effectively giving me more choices in what I can put in that slot. I was also not aware that i already have rage/haste/dispel in lvl 3 slots -- leaving one for whatever flavor I choose to put there, resist energy and blur in lvl 2, and carry GH. In addition to all the DPS/death/CC spells I actually need on a sorc.

Man, I wish I had more spell slots