PSA Haste does not waste a valuable spell slot

[altrocks]

For Sorcerers: Haste yes. Rage no.

Why not rage? Especially with Savant now? A free +1 to your Icy Prison/Heat Death/Earth Grab DC, 20 more HP... no downside to carrying it.

[goodspeed]

your right. It's right there in pot form lol

[Khurse]

Read my earlier response, #186 in this thread.

If I post an LFM and an arcane joins and then says "I don't do buffs" I would probably pause a moment in surprise and then check to see if the group was filled so we could start. The only time I could really see myself not wanting to group with that person is if they said, "I don't do buffs, I don't do DPS, I don't heal, I don't fight, etc..." And then they put on their underwater action item and sat at the bottom of the nearest pool until the end of the quest. Other than that, if a players is trying to do a good job, that is the most important thing.

The only exceptions would be if there was a specific quest that required a specific skill (such as a trapmonkey) and then I would post "need a trapmonkey" in the LFM. If a rogue filled the last spot and then told me "I am DPS - I don't do traps" I would probably be a bit annoyed at his/her inability to read and comprehend, but then I would want to start the party.

Basically, when I post an LFM I am looking for five other people to play DDO with. If they are good players it does not matter a great deal how uber their characters are or what spells/gear/skills they have - it will likely be an enjoyable PUG. If the player is a total tool it really doesn't matter how uber their character is - it is unlikely to be a fun PUG.

And it's great that you do so. But (since this is, to be honest -going way beyond what I had wanted it too)
Are you suggesting that if you decide to do a TOD run, you put the LFM up for healers, get 2 and then they say "Oh yeah, BTW I don't heal, I turn undead and melee with my hands, no I don't use handwraps" you pause, think "wow, clerics who don't heal, how wonderful!" check that your group is full then run the raid.

Or do you say 'Hey thanks for trying to waste or time" before you hit the boot button.

Or set up an Epic DA and have a caster who as soon as he joins your group says "I don't CC, I have no DPS spells,I don't buff,I have 200HP's and no fort and I like to melee with this non DR breaking greataxe so I'll need a healer watching me all the time" and then a cleric joins who says "Yeah I don't heal, I don't melee, I don't buff anyone but myself" and say 'hey the group is full, let's go?

Or do you say to yourself, "Well it's great they want to play like that,but they are wasting the time of anyone in the group who actually wants to complete the quest"?

[mobrien316]

And it's great that you do so. But (since this is, to be honest -going way beyond what I had wanted it too)
Are you suggesting that if you decide to do a TOD run, you put the LFM up for healers, get 2 and then they say "Oh yeah, BTW I don't heal, I turn undead and melee with my hands, no I don't use handwraps" you pause, think "wow, clerics who don't heal, how wonderful!" check that your group is full then run the raid.

Or do you say 'Hey thanks for trying to waste or time" before you hit the boot button.

Or set up an Epic DA and have a caster who as soon as he joins your group says "I don't CC, I have no DPS spells,I don't buff,I have 200HP's and no fort and I like to melee with this non DR breaking greataxe so I'll need a healer watching me all the time" and then a cleric joins who says "Yeah I don't heal, I don't melee, I don't buff anyone but myself" and say 'hey the group is full, let's go?

Or do you say to yourself, "Well it's great they want to play like that,but they are wasting the time of anyone in the group who actually wants to complete the quest"?

I don't recall writing that I think, "How wonderful!" It's more of a pause while I think, "Hmmm... A cleric who doesn't heal. That's not what I expect when I encounter a cleric." Then I would see if the group is full so we could start. But, as I already wrote, if I post an LFM and specify "Healer needed" and a cleric joins and tells me they don't heal, that is annoying because they apparently couldn't be bothered to read the LFM.

I also already wrote that I would boot someone who essentially says they will do nothing (i.e. - no melee, no casting, no buffing, no traps, etc...). But I can't see booting someone just because they don't conform to the usual cookie-cutter build for their class.

I think my original post in this thread was to suggest that if you want something specific, post it in the LFM rather than asking the person who joins if they have a specific buff/spell/item/skill/whatever and if you don't like their answer, furiously scribbling their name in your "People I will never group with again because they are gimped, selfish, and anti-team" notebook.

In short, if I post an LFM and there are no specifics listed under my name, everyone is free to join. If after questing with that party I discover that player "X" is an immature moron, I will not group with them again. If they are a good player but have, for whatever reason, built a character that does not conform to the usual standard, I will be happy to group with them again.

If I am planning to do a quest where, for example, we simply have to include a trapmonkey, then I will post that on the LFM. If any of the first four people to join are rogues I will ask them if they can do traps. If they say they can, great. If not, then I will update the LFM from "Need a trapmonkey" to "Last spot open - MUST be able to do traps" or something similar. If, at that point, a rogue with a zero in Disable Device joins, I will likely boot them (with apologies) because if they refuse to read or follow simple directions they are not likely to be fun to PUG with.

I just can't see refusing to group with someone, regardless of player skill, because you don't agree with their build choices. I can see squelching poor players, but it seems a bit presumptuous to automatically assume someone is a poor player because of their build choice.

If you encounter, for example, a cleric who doesn't heal and is specced out to turn undead while fighting with a club in each hand, try questing with him or her before you decide they must be a crappy player. Maybe you will find a great team member for future quests. Who cares if that cleric can't heal? When assembling your next group, simply don't plan on that cleric filling a healing slot. If the person running that cleric is a good player they will be an asset to the party.

[KoboldKiller]

While I carry haste I am finding it more and more less useful.

Most players I have ran with lately barely even wait around for ANY buffs let alone haste.

They zone in and then run off as soon as they can.

So usually I'm the only one hasted.

As for rage, that's a matter of choice and I don't find it necessary to carry.

[voodoogroves]

While I carry haste I am finding it more and more less useful.

Most players I have ran with lately barely even wait around for ANY buffs let alone haste.

They zone in and then run off as soon as they can.

So usually I'm the only one hasted.

As for rage, that's a matter of choice and I don't find it necessary to carry.

Rage pots at least have moderately decent duration. Haste pots, do not.

[Missing_Minds]

Why not rage? Especially with Savant now? A free +1 to your Icy Prison/Heat Death/Earth Grab DC, 20 more HP... no downside to carrying it.

If sorcs were given the correct number of 2nd level spells... maybe.

But we aren't, so I don't.

resist energy
blur
knock (some solo, and want to open those chests and doors)
web
scorching ray
invisibility. (some players don't want to carry scrolls)
acid arrow. (not all savants are earth/not air. It ticks quite well now.)

The first 4 are the ones I take, and I will toss resists to save the "healer" sp if wanted.

[MindCake]

If sorcs were given the correct number of 2nd level spells... maybe.

But we aren't, so I don't.

resist energy
blur
knock (some solo, and want to open those chests and doors)
web
scorching ray
invisibility. (some players don't want to carry scrolls)
acid arrow. (not all savants are earth/not air. It ticks quite well now.)

The first 4 are the ones I take, and I will toss resists to save the "healer" sp if wanted.

Rage is 3rd level for wizards/sorcerers.

[mobrien316]

Most players I have ran with lately barely even wait around for ANY buffs let alone haste.

They zone in and then run off as soon as they can.

That, of course, is another common issue. Going into a raid with my sorcerer and having anywhere from five to ten other characters shouting at him, "Haste me! Rage me! GH me!" while simultaneously sprinting ahead.

The idea apparently being that it is not only my job to buff them, it is also my job to find them and catch them in order to buff them.

[KoboldKiller]

That, of course, is another common issue. Going into a raid with my sorcerer and having anywhere from five to ten other characters shouting at him, "Haste me! Rage me! GH me!" while simultaneously sprinting ahead.

The idea apparently being that it is not only my job to buff them, it is also my job to find them and catch them in order to buff them.

Exactly.

[Postumus]

Why not rage? Especially with Savant now? A free +1 to your Icy Prison/Heat Death/Earth Grab DC, 20 more HP... no downside to carrying it.

I'm not saying Sorcs shouldn't carry rage, I'm saying I disagree that all Sorcs must carry rage - especially now that Extend is no longer a must have feat.


Again it really depends on your build and style of play, but I don't carry it on my main sorc and I don't miss it one bit.

Also, allow me to quote page one from everyone's favorite divine caster book I Don't Carry That Spell Apologia: it comes in pots.

[TheDearLeader]

If sorcs were given the correct number of 2nd level spells... maybe.

But we aren't, so I don't.

Uh...

Rage is 3rd level for wizards/sorcerers.

Ah yes, this guy's got it. Thanks.

I'm not saying Sorcs shouldn't carry rage, I'm saying I disagree that all Sorcs must carry rage - especially now that Extend is no longer a must have feat.

Again it really depends on your build and style of play, but I don't carry it on my main sorc and I don't miss it one bit.

Also, allow me to quote page one from everyone's favorite divine caster book I Don't Carry That Spell Apologia: it comes in pots.

I'm just curious why Sorcerers are currently in such a tizzy about their low-level spell slots. As a Savant, we're already given our "best" DPS spell per that spell level for free. Fireball, Frost Lance, Lightning Bolt, Acid Blast.

Three spells that make it into my repertoire by level 20 are Haste, Rage, and Displacement. This still leaves one spell slot for... something, whatever.

Haste and Rage do, indeed, come in pots. And, moreso, they come in clickie form.

But lets go over the facts here:

• Potions are Single-Target only (the drinker).
• Potions are 0:30 of Haste, 1:30 of Rage.
• Clickies are cast as a Wizard's abysmal casting speed. Haste clickies vary on duration, only Rage clickies I know do 1:30, like pots.

Whereas, as a Sorc, without Extend:

• Casting animation is fast.
• Spells are AoE.
• The spell lasts 4x longer than a Haste pot, 2x longer than Rage.
• With extend, the values go to 8x longer, and 4x longer respectively.

The to-Sorc benefits of casting their own Rage and Haste:

• They're always included in the Rage/Haste
• +20 HP
• +1 Fort and Reflex Saves, (+1 Morale to Will: Does not stack with GH, but perhaps these Sorcs don't buff that, either?)
• +40% movement speed, which is truly +40% (wiki says 32%?). 30% Striders are only +24% movement speed IIRC. Either way, Haste is faster than Striders, and also means you can have some more useful form of boot on.
• +1 to tier III DCs
• +2 Strength leads to less embarrassing moments where you can't cast/move because you're enfeebled. Not a problem on my Sorc past his first life and day 1 in Sands, but I hear some experience this still.
• The one penalty, -2 AC, does not factor into this class whatsoever. These spells are entirely win, specifically to the Sorcerer casting them.

What does this mean to a real-life group?

• Well, realistically, not everyone will have Haste/Rage clickies. Most players have pots, but will only use them at "crucial" moments, like large groups of enemies, or boss fights. Especially considering if a quest lasts 10 minutes, they've already consumed 20 pots, or 1/5th of their stack.
• The quest/raid *will* take longer. Sure, your savant is high deeps - but so are the other toons in the party. They are even higher deeps when they are given an extra +15% to attack, +2 to hit and +1 to damage, better saves, and 20 more HP.
• The quest/raid *will* take longer. Why do I say this twice? Because without Haste, moving from place to place *will* be slower, since Strider Boots have no equivalent speed boost to Haste. Also, many melee toons tend to have these "Madstone Boot" things, which are only Striding 20%, which we all know is actually less than 20% boost to movement speed.
• The quest raid *will* take longer. Why do I say this thrice now? Because those that want to use pots, or clickies, need to stop swinging, and chug/click. Not just do they need to do this, but they need to do it much more often than an arcane caster reproducing the same effects.

So lets sum this up: Haste/Rage, from an arcane, is better for you, better for me, better for them, regardless of the class you/me/them happen to be playing at the time, including the arcane currently casting it.

I've seen this tendency lately of all classes, not just Arcane, to lead toward the self-serving. I'm a Sorc w/o resists and haste, I'm a FvS icon, but I literally promise to not use a single healing spell or scroll, I'm a Spellsinger, but don't expect songs...the list goes on.

Here's the thing: we all help one another. And the truly good groups are the ones that can help one another out the most. Does this mean every single quest in the game needs a ten-minute at-the-quest-entrance pow-wow for the Axer Package™? No, certainly not.

What it does mean is that anyone with a blue bar can provide buffs, as well as doing all-powerful DPS. Paladins, Rangers, Bards, FvS, Cleric, Sorcerers, Wizards - all of them can buff, while still performing a variety of other party roles.
Conversely, this also means smart melee.
Melee fight one mob at a time, focusing first on enemy casters, second on mobs with SR higher than the party's arcane can reasonable deal with.
Break Fascinated mobs, if applicable, one at a time, and using the same order.
If caster is in trouble, melee intimidate/stun/trip/physically block trouble-causing mobs, and eliminate them.
Melees "Box" boss mobs, especially those that cannot teleport, and allow the arcane to do their all-powerful burst DPS.

I've talked about this in other threads - tactics. And smart ones at that. The more and more we work together in this game, the better we as individuals, and as a group, perform. No class is exempt from this simple assertion.

[Kushiel]

::Snip::

I've talked about this in other threads - tactics. And smart ones at that. The more and more we work together in this game, the better we as individuals, and as a group, perform. No class is exempt from this simple assertion.

Good layout of the benefits brought by Haste or Rage. In broad general terms I agree with what you've written.

I try to hand out what buffs I can, no matter the class I'm playing. I'll use my neutralize poison/remove blindness/remove curse/etc. clicks on party members as I see they are in trouble (since I also carry stacks of guild pots that work just on me).

As a buffer, I hate being chanted at repeatedly by people to keep them buffed with what they want. Especially if we've been running a chain together... and now here, on part 4, they are still chanting at me for things I've been doing all along.

Or I may be cycling through some gear changes to pull fresh sp from the Korthos necklace and ring of spell storing before I continue casting - or moving some other piece of my equipment around because it aids what I'm trying to to for myself or a different companion *at that moment* - and a three second interval of someone barking at me to take care of them, and getting bent out of shape/abusive is a real quick trip to getting Nothing.

"Our working Together" - is not *me* doing what *You* want me to do when you want me to do it [Generic *you* TheDearLeader, not you *you* - that sentence just reminded me of how some people seem to view Working Together]. Our working together is understanding what everyone brings to the quest at that point in time, whether optimal or preferred by some or not, and moving forward together - at whatever pace in whatever degree of preparedness - to attempt the mission. ;-}

[mobrien316]

"Our working Together" - is not *me* doing what *You* want me to do when you want me to do it [Generic *you* TheDearLeader, not you *you* - that sentence just reminded me of how some people seem to view Working Together]. Our working together is understanding what everyone brings to the quest at that point in time, whether optimal or preferred by some or not, and moving forward together - at whatever pace in whatever degree of preparedness - to attempt the mission. ;-}

QFT

It is not unheard-of for some of the very same melees that holler for a neverending cycle of buffs to be continually recast, when the same arcane caster who just used up a good portion of his remaining spell points to buff them to the max grabs the aggro by throwing a spell or two at the boss, to decide that they don't like chasing after moving bosses and they'd rather stay where they are and take out the generic mobs while the boss hunts down and kills the mana-depleted caster.

In a perfect world, the buffed-out melees would think about trying to hold aggro or, at the very least, going to help the caster if he winds up stealing the aggro from the melee. There's that team concept again: The arcane buffs the melee for close combat, the melee engages in close combat against the most dangerous boss/caster/mob because he has just been buffed specifically to do that.

When going through Invaders (and recasting Haste after pretty much every single beholder encounter) I have occasionally offered melees the suggestion that, when encountering a beholder, they try to move to its side or back so it will turn around and my sorc (and any other casters) won't be in the anti-magic cone. A couple of these melees, the same ones who scream for new buffs every time theirs run out or are dispelled, have flat-out told me that they know what they're doing and I should just leave it to them.

The clear message I got from that was that it's okay for them to tell me my job (i.e. - buff them, buff them again, and then buff them some more) so they can go out and kill stuff, but it is unacceptable for me to suggest a very minor change in their tactics (is it really so difficult to charge a beholder, which is what they are doing anyway, and then take a couple of steps to the left or the right to get behind it?) that would help me kill stuff.

Of course, this is just a few people out of a lot, so it is not representative of everyone who plays DDO. But perhaps someone looking at this from a melee point of view could take a look at it from the arcane's point of view, too.

[varusso]

Good layout of the benefits brought by Haste or Rage. In broad general terms I agree with what you've written.

I try to hand out what buffs I can, no matter the class I'm playing. I'll use my neutralize poison/remove blindness/remove curse/etc. clicks on party members as I see they are in trouble (since I also carry stacks of guild pots that work just on me).

As a buffer, I hate being chanted at repeatedly by people to keep them buffed with what they want. Especially if we've been running a chain together... and now here, on part 4, they are still chanting at me for things I've been doing all along.

Or I may be cycling through some gear changes to pull fresh sp from the Korthos necklace and ring of spell storing before I continue casting - or moving some other piece of my equipment around because it aids what I'm trying to to for myself or a different companion *at that moment* - and a three second interval of someone barking at me to take care of them, and getting bent out of shape/abusive is a real quick trip to getting Nothing.

"Our working Together" - is not *me* doing what *You* want me to do when you want me to do it [Generic *you* TheDearLeader, not you *you* - that sentence just reminded me of how some people seem to view Working Together]. Our working together is understanding what everyone brings to the quest at that point in time, whether optimal or preferred by some or not, and moving forward together - at whatever pace in whatever degree of preparedness - to attempt the mission. ;-}

Tell that guy to stuff it in his ear and wait or grab a pot. They are the exception to the rule.

[TheDearLeader]

"Our working Together" - is not *me* doing what *You* want me to do when you want me to do it [Generic *you* TheDearLeader, not you *you* - that sentence just reminded me of how some people seem to view Working Together]. Our working together is understanding what everyone brings to the quest at that point in time, whether optimal or preferred by some or not, and moving forward together - at whatever pace in whatever degree of preparedness - to attempt the mission. ;-}

I could not agree more.

I think PUGs are where we see the most issues here. A group of people that party together will often "know" one another, i.e. that guy always has Planar Girds & Draconic necklaces, that guy doesn't have Extend so I'll do the hastes, that guy will handle Destruction and Improved Destruction on Malicia.. etc.

Add a new person to the mix, and that is where we have the origins of these PSAs. I was on a level 20 Barb (not in sig, he sucks), and over the course of a week ran three SoS runs.

2/3 runs had 2 casters, I recall at least one of the runs being 2x Wizard. What did these runs have in common?

No buffs during the fighting of the 4x elemental masters, which is technically the entire quest, since Sor'jek is an "Optional" (although we, as players, don't see it that way). No elemental resist, no GH, no blur, and on at least one of the runs, there was *one* Haste tossed the entire 40 minutes of the actual quest. Note that 40 minutes is slow - I attribute lack of Haste and slower movement speeds to be a direct contributor. No Rages. Divine buffs... were scarce, but not unseen, save for the same issue with lack of resists.

To me? It is horribly odd. Maybe it is because my first two toons were melee, whereas my second two were arcane. I don't know. But if I can help a party in any way, be it buff them/debuff the enemy/CC the enemy... I just do it. Simple things, like checking people's examination windows for what ship buffs they have, and filling in the blanks... I just kind of *do it*.

And that in itself is a failing point for me - that I expect others to react in exactly the same situation as I would. It is also not in my nature to ask for buffs - while I can do so, I don't enjoy doing it. When I am on an arcane, it is annoying to be asked for buffs as I am passing them, via visual clues such as 4x people in the party, 1 by 1, getting GH symbols over their head - guess what buddy? You're next, you don't have to ask! -- As a result, I am hesitant to ask for buffs, and just assume that they have not yet "gotten to me".

But yes, Kushiel, I do agree. Parties, guilds, cliques, and DDOers of various experience levels will share different opinions on the concept of cooperation. What I do disagree with is the overabundance of 3rd level spells that a Sorcerer could have in their spellbook that is more beneficial to them, and the party, (but mainly them), than Haste/Rage, for the reasons I listed in the prior statement.

When going through Invaders (and recasting Haste after pretty much every single beholder encounter) I have occasionally offered melees the suggestion that, when encountering a beholder, they try to move to its side or back so it will turn around and my sorc (and any other casters) won't be in the anti-magic cone. A couple of these melees, the same ones who scream for new buffs every time theirs run out or are dispelled, have flat-out told me that they know what they're doing and I should just leave it to them.

But perhaps someone looking at this from a melee point of view could take a look at it from the arcane's point of view, too.

Heavily snipped the above, to address the key points. Perhaps the melees were aware of the fact that the Beholder's back eyes contain the only guaranteed one-shot kill out of their spell repertoire, Finger of Death? And, as a result, did not want to move behind them in order to avoid instant and unsatisfying death. Do I agree with this? No.. not really. I'd likely have a Deathblock item on, Silver Flame Talisman after a certain point. But this *may* be their reasoning. Also... beholders kinda hover however they please. A melee may, or may not, be capable of spinning them as you desire.

To the second portion I quoted: per my toons in the signature, I have 4 toons you're likely to see me on. Paladin, Fighter, Sorcerer, Bard. All are single-time TRs, whose past lives were of the same class. I speak from 4 lives of melee, 4 lives of arcane, when I stress the importance of the [>>].

[goodspeed]

Exactly.

haha ya. Pally screams out haste me. I look around, I click on his name "Target is to far away" Where the hell are you? Pally yells out, I don't know im lost. That's ok let me just hit haste to come find you, then i'll haste you so you can run faster cause hey who needs a sprint clicky heh. Then I'll haste you again so you can run like a crackhead some more, and swing your sword that misses 3 quarters of the time.

Meanwhile while your swing your stick their, I'll just cast a few spells and kill them... and then i'll haste you again so you can outrun the group and make the healers life a living hell. Horray!!!

Aren't pugs fun? I can't imagine why anyone would want to deck out their char to solo.

[KoboldKiller]

Actually this brings up the issue of buffs as a whole.

There are too many people it seems that want WAAY to many buffs, some of which aren't needed.

They want every elemental resist, they want jump, they want <insert any number of buffs here>.

I know you may not know who's in your group but generally I trust that the buffs handed out were the ones I need for that quest.

Generally on my sorc I will hand out blur, GH, the appropriate elemental resist, stoneskin if I'm really generous and an initial haste.

[mobrien316]

Heavily snipped the above, to address the key points. Perhaps the melees were aware of the fact that the Beholder's back eyes contain the only guaranteed one-shot kill out of their spell repertoire, Finger of Death? And, as a result, did not want to move behind them in order to avoid instant and unsatisfying death. Do I agree with this? No.. not really. I'd likely have a Deathblock item on, Silver Flame Talisman after a certain point. But this *may* be their reasoning. Also... beholders kinda hover however they please. A melee may, or may not, be capable of spinning them as you desire.

To the second portion I quoted: per my toons in the signature, I have 4 toons you're likely to see me on. Paladin, Fighter, Sorcerer, Bard. All are single-time TRs, whose past lives were of the same class. I speak from 4 lives of melee, 4 lives of arcane, when I stress the importance of the [>>].

Regarding the beholders, it is certainly possible, although everyone concerned *claimed* at the start of the quest to have deathblock items equipped. And I believe Finger of Death is not a guaranteed insta-kill - a fortitude save prevents death.

Regarding the second part, I was not directing the comment at you, since your earlier posts seemed well reasoned and balanced. And throughout this thread I have not disputed the importance of Haste - I have primarily written about my concern with the practice of immediately classifying a player as "gimped" or "selfish" or whatever if they don't have a specific buff/skill/item/whatever.

[Aashrym]

I see this thread took off since I last looked.

The OP doesn't state other players shouldn't carry haste pots or clickies. It also doesn't state we need extend. It states that haste is not a wasted slot.

Really, looking at characters who are 15th+ levels a high utility SP efficient spell should be on the casters' lists at that point. If someone needs a pot or clickie they should also have that but pots and clickies do not last as long as unextended hastes (let alone extended), and adding the time to use them still takes away from other actions. Those should be back ups as needed, not the expectation.

Shroud clickies should not be the expectation on a lvl 16 barbarian, for example either, because while those are useful haste is readily available for a cheap SP cost, low level spells slot, and uses up a cheap component. Shroud clickies use time and mats that might not have been available to said barbarian yet if he's new to shroud. Haste has definitely been available to arcane casters.

I can see a sorc waiting to take haste with the limited slots and requirement for other offensive spells while leveling up. A bard is crazy not to take it right away and wizard can slot it as needed (which really is most of the time with most groups, imo); wizards and bards both end up with more level 3 slots as well. Later on tho, that sorc should have better offensive spells and has more slots. The sorc is giving up haste for no reason considering that alternatives available at higher levels and the added option it brings to a group.

Sheesh, just take the darn spell for when it is useful.

PS: A caster who tells me I can't tell him how to use his blue bar better not tell me how to use mine when he dies.