Exotic Weapons Improvments

[Requiro]

Hello.

In my opinion Exotic Weapons should be just like ordinary weapons until we take proper Weapons Proficiency. After that you should get special (exotic) bonus when using them.

First changes to some weapons itself, for more balance in game:

Khopesh: Base damage 1d8 19-20/x2 (GS: 1d10 19-20/x2)
Kama: Base damage 1d6 20/x4 (GS: 1d8 20/x4)
Shuriken: Base damage 1d3 20/x2 (GS: 1d4 20/x2)

Now what we get with proper Weapon Proficient feat:

• Kama: Inherent, stacking Maiming property

• Dwarven Axe: Inherent Elasticity property instead current Glancing Blows

• Bastard Sword: Inherent 20% bypass fortification and current Glancing Blows

• Khopesh: +1 critical multiplier

• Great Crossbow: Knock the target with Natural Vorpal (roll 20) strike, no save.

• Repeating heavy crossbow: 3 attack per shoot
• Repeating light crossbow: 3 attack per shoot

• Shuriken: Inherent slicing ability (additional 1d4 damage to target)

Some explanations:

Kama – Always worse then Dwarven Axe, but better then Longsword (In DPS term)

Bastard sword - Will be good weapon against 50% fortification mobs, and superior against 100% fortification mobs.

Dwarven axe – On no fortification mobs it will gain a little more power then Khopesh unless you have high +dmg (45 for Dwarfs 15 for the rest). Against 50% fortification will be almost the best weapon, unless you have extreme high +dmg (100 for Dwarfs 50 for the rest). Nothing change for 100% fortification mobs.

Khopesh – Still the best one handed weapon for everyone with high +dmg. But useless against 100% fortification mobs. Without feat, it will work like ordinary longsword.

Great Crossbow – this change is made by Eladrin: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...01&postcount=5

Repeating heavy crossbow and Repeating light crossbow – nothing changes. We just need that bug fixed (hope from link above)

Shuriken - Additional damage is great (4,5 average damage with base damage) until mobs have Damage Reduction (both damage are on separate trigger). And I resign from inherent double strike because when consider weapon effects from shuriken, that will be to powerful.

[Requiro]

I'm change my suggestion after read this thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=315675

Any comment are welcome.

This is a math for my new proposal:

• Against No fortification mobs:
  
  • Khopesh will be the best weapon again no fortification mobs if you have very high Str
  • Dwarven Axe will be better at low str (unless you get +15 dmg or +45 for Dwarfs)
  • Bastard Sword will be very week
• Against 50% fortification mobs:
  
  • Khopesh will be still very good if you have extreme high str
  • Dwarven Axe will be the best for most players (unless you will have +50 dmg or +100 for Dwarfs)
  • Bastard Sword will be in average place. Better then Khopesh but worse then Dwarven Axe.
• Against 100% fortification mobs:
  
  • Khopesh will be very week
  • Dwarven Axe will be good especially in Dwarf hand
  • Bastard Sword will be superior to all weapon in game included Khopesh and Dwarves Axe.

Math was done with LitII and +6 seeker item.

+Dmg	Kho	Daxe	Diff	+%	Bsrd	Diff	+%
0	40,8	42,4	-1,5	-4	40,4	0,5	1
10	54,3	54,9	-0,5	-1	51,9	2,5	5
20	67,8	67,4	0,5	1	63,4	4,5	7
30	81,3	79,9	1,5	2	74,9	6,5	9
40	94,8	92,4	2,5	3	86,4	8,5	10
50	108,3	104,9	3,5	3	97,9	10,5	11
60	121,8	117,4	4,5	4	109,4	12,5	11
70	135,3	129,9	5,5	4	120,9	14,5	12
80	148,8	142,4	6,5	5	132,4	16,5	12
90	162	154	7,5	5	143,9	18,5	13
100	175,8	167,4	8,5	5	155,4	20,5	13

Againts 50% fortification:

+Dmg	Kho	Daxe	Diff	+%	Bsrd	Diff	+%
0	35,4	37,8	-2,1	-7	38,2	-2,8	-8
10	46,9	48,8	-1,9	-4	49,1	-2,2	-5
20	58,4	59,8	-1,4	-2	60,0	-1,6	-3
30	66,5	70,8	-0,9	-1	70,9	-1	-1
40	81,4	81,8	-0,4	-1	81,8	-0,4	-1
50	92,9	92,8	0,1	0	92,7	0,2	0
60	104,4	103,8	0,6	1	103,6	0,8	1
70	115,9	114,8	1,1	1	114,5	1,4	1
80	127,4	125,8	1,6	1	125,4	2	2
90	138,9	136,8	2,1	2	136,3	2,6	2
100	150,4	147,8	2,6	2	147,2	3,2	2

And against 100% fortification:

+Dmg	Kho	Daxe	Diff	+%	Bsrd	Diff	+%
0	29,9	33,3	-3,3	-11	34,7	-4,7	-16
10	39,4	42,8	-3,3	-8	44,6	-5,1	-13
20	48,9	52,3	-3,3	-7	54,5	-5,5	-11
30	58,4	61,8	-3,3	-6	64,4	-5,9	-10
40	67,9	71,3	-3,3	-5	74,3	-6,3	-9
50	77,4	80,8	-3,3	-4	84,2	-6,7	-9
60	86,9	90,3	-3,3	-4	94,1	-7,1	-8
70	96,4	99,8	-3,3	-3	104,0	-7,5	-8
80	105,9	109,3	-3,3	-3	113,9	-7,9	-8
90	115,4	118,8	-3,3	-3	123,8	-8,3	-7
100	124,9	128,3	-3,3	-3	133,7	-8,7	-7

So what do you think about this solution?

[Standal]

What is really the problem with the current weapons as is?

Bastard sword is equally available to all races and pretty terrible. Bastard sword needs some help or just shrug and let it be poor. It's a got a tank sword and board role, so maybe it's OK as is.

Dwarven axes aren't a true exotic IMO. DAs are free to dwarves. Making them equal to khopesh either by buffing DA or nerfing khop will shift the balance toward dwarves.

I think that what people want is to have options in weapons and playstyle. Why not just introduce blunt and piercing exotic weapons that are equal to the khopesh? Maybe do something for THFers also.

[Requiro]

What is really the problem with the current weapons as is? One to rule them all: Khopesh.

Bastard sword is equally available to all races and pretty terrible. Bastard sword needs some help or just shrug and let it be poor. Do You read my proposal? It's a got a tank sword and board role, so maybe it's OK as is.

Dwarven axes aren't a true exotic IMO. DAs are free to dwarves. Making them equal to khopesh either by buffing DA or nerfing khop will shift the balance toward dwarves. I don't made then equal. Do You read my post??

I think that what people want is to have options in weapons and playstyle. And that is in my proposal. You don’t read my post, isn’t you? Why not just introduce blunt and piercing exotic weapons that are equal to the khopesh? Maybe do something for THFers also.

Comments in red

To be clear: With my proposal Khopesh will not be the only best weapon to use in DDO any more. They will be very very good, worth feat, but have a good competition. Bastard Swords will be better with extreme high Str (and you can obtain it with Horc now) and Daxe will be nice option, always worst in DPS term, but almost free for Dwarves.

Ok. I will post math for this.

[Miow]

What is really the problem with the current weapons as is?

Bastard sword is equally available to all races and pretty terrible. Bastard sword needs some help or just shrug and let it be poor. It's a got a tank sword and board role, so maybe it's OK as is.

Dwarven axes aren't a true exotic IMO. DAs are free to dwarves. Making them equal to khopesh either by buffing DA or nerfing khop will shift the balance toward dwarves.

I think that what people want is to have options in weapons and playstyle. Why not just introduce blunt and piercing exotic weapons that are equal to the khopesh? Maybe do something for THFers also.

DA are not free to pure rogue dwarves which are arguably a melee toon.

[Requiro]

Some math. Clear the post. Now I have new idea.

[Ungood]

I mean, think about this, When it comes to Kopesh, there is there is nothing about it, in the designed, description, or even in it's history as a weapon, that sets it apart and makes it so that it should be the top tier damage weapon.

It is just a curved bladed long sword for all intents and purposes.

a Good game does not have a "One to rule them All" type weapon and trying to suggest one be put in, is a bad game design. A good design is where players have options, and can make choices, like take Bastard Sword, or Kopesh and not feel like they are gimping their build.

In fact, right now, I will agree the Kopesh is a bit too hot market, and could do with a little tone down, with crafting on the rise, and possible GS decon coming out, maybe now is the time to really balance the weapons out knock Kopesh down a notch bring it more in line to the other exotics and even martial weapons.

[Ungood]

Dwarven axes aren't a true exotic IMO. DAs are free to dwarves.

No they are not, they just count as martial weapons to dwarves, so, rogues, clerics, bards, etc, would not get them, unless they either gave up cap-stone, or paid the feat.

[Requiro]

<snip>

Thus, a suggestion to try and make this "Super Sword" is really a bad idea.

This is not my idea - look at my math

a Good game does not have a "One to rule them All" type weapon and trying to suggest one be put in, is a bad game design.

For now there is one: Khopesh. That why my suggestion. Look at my math.

But that is just my two bits.

Comments in red

[Pape_27]

so, then this is what? Another cleverly disguised "Nerf Khopesh" thread, then?

/not signed.

and I dont even use the Khopesh anymore.


_

[Requiro]

so, then this is what? Another cleverly disguised "Nerf Khopesh" thread, then?

/not signed.

and I dont even use the Khopesh anymore.


_

Great. But… This thread is about adjust Exotic weapons in game. So try read one more time, see math, and post why not signed.

[Pape_27]

So thats a yes on the "Its another Nerf Khopesh by Requiro" post then?

why?

The Khopesh is thought of as the best one handed weapon in the game.

It costs a feat to use.

If you nerf the weapon, it suddenly becomes a long sword with a different skin, thus relegating it to the trash bin. Who wants to spend a feat on a long sword? Not me. Nerf the khopesh, you might as well remove every exotic weapon in the game.

After, if you have your way, the Khopesh falls off the top of the hill, people will just take aim at the next "IT" weapon. Then the call will come to "Nerf it, its too op"... Its an endless cycle.

There are viable options to the Khopesh. There are a multitude of weapons people use in the game right now. It creates a diverse look to the game, where nobody is geared exactly the same way. Basically the Khopesh is the only exotic weapon feat worth taking. You want to eliminate that? Pretty soon, the only weapon choices will be scimitar for slashing, rapiers for piercing and DA's for dwarves. Pretty soon the game will look like wow, with everybody geared exactly the same way.

You want to make a change to exotic weapons? Then make a change... to the weapons that need a boost, not nerfing the one that doesnt. Give people a reason to take an exotic weapon feat. Dont take away the only reason in the game to use an exotic weapon feat. Make the other weapons more viable in comparison.

_

[Requiro]

<snip>

Hmm... Do you read my proposal? Especially my math?

Where I put Khopesh in pair with long sword?

In my proposal, I adjust ALL exotics to made them better.

And where you don't see possibility to adjust them ("Its an endless cycle") I see solution. Solution is made the weapons the best one but only in special situation.

In my proposal Khopesh are the best one handed until you reach 70-90 STR. After that Bastard Sword is the best in DPS term. Dwarwen axe have little less power, but can be almost free for Dwarfs and can get +2dmg bonus. Same for Scimitars for Elfs. So this is trade of cost/more DPS

Give me some argument against my proposal other then:

- Don’t nerf, Buff only (this is your whish of endless buffing).
- When you Nerf it other will become overpower (which is lie, in my proposal, no other weapons will be overpowered)

[Pape_27]

answer my question.

then i will answer yours.

[Requiro]

answer my question.

then i will answer yours.

Which one? I don't see any question that I don’t answer you already... So elaborate which one.

[dkyle]

In my proposal Khopesh are the best one handed until you reach 70-90 STR. After that Bastard Sword is the best in DPS term.

Redo your math for 50% Fort.

Whichever weapon rules 50% Fort is the one that rules overall.

Looks to me like you just plan to pass the crown of DPS-king from Khopesh to BSword.

I've suggested it before: Fortification bypass for BSwords. This could allow BSwords to roughly equal Khopeshes vs 50%, without ever overtaking them at 0%, and to rule significantly at 100%.

Ideally, neither weapon would strictly beat the other at all fortification levels, no matter the STR mod. Whereas your proposal would mean that, in the long run (as available STR inevitably increases), BSwords would simply become the one weapon to rule them all. To an even greater degree than Khopesh; at least BSword marginally beats the current Khopesh at 100% fort.


Khopesh needs no nerf because it is perfectly in line with what a DPS feat should do. If anything, compared to other feats, it is underpowered. Raising other weapons to its level is not power creep or "endless buffing". There is an end: viability next to Khopesh.

[sjbb87]

I had a similar idea, but to balance a different way.
The weapons are as they are ...
but would add
Improved use Exotic Weapons:


Kama: +2 damage stacking bonus and 20/x4

Bastard Sword: 50% to activate Glancing Blows. In Pnp this weapon could be used as a two-handed weapon


Dwarven Axe: +2 stacking damage and +2 stacking techniques to combat DC

Khopesh: +4 stacking property Seeker and +2 stacking hit

Great Crossbow: +4 damage stacking

Repeating Heavy Crossbow: 4 attack per shoot

Repeating Light Crossbow: 4 attack per shoot

Shuriken: slicing Inherent Ability (additional 1d4 damage to target) (this a C and CTRL V xD) and critical range 19/20

Bonus ....
New Exotic Weapon
Flamberge
Flamberge damage 2d6 critical range 18~20/2 Slashing

Improved use Exotic Weapons: Flamberge. Critical - 18~20/x3


= D

[Pape_27]

Hmm... Do you read my proposal? Especially my math? Yes I saw your math. Its the same "Math" you've been posting for months

Where I put Khopesh in pair with long sword? crit multipliers: "New Khopesh" X2; Long sword X2; and Khopesh still costs a feat.

In my proposal, I adjust ALL exotics to made them better. Better? no. More in line with what your sensibilities are does not make the changes "better". It forces people who want to use certain weapons down a distinct, narrowing path needed to take advantage of all these "tactics" in order to make the weapons useful. again more homogeneous builds, less Flavor in the game.

And where you don't see possibility to adjust them ("Its an endless cycle") I see solution. Solution is made the weapons the best one but only in special situation. Its an endless cycle because something will take the place of the Khopesh. In this scenario, its the Bastard sword. Then the calls will come to nerf the new "King of Weapons" because it makes someone else feel bad about their build... an endless cycle.

In my proposal Khopesh are the best one handed until you reach 70-90 STR. After that Bastard Sword is the best in DPS term. Dwarwen axe have little less power, but can be almost free for Dwarfs and can get +2dmg bonus. Same for Scimitars for Elfs. So this is trade of cost/more DP, And none of them besides the Bastard Sword cost a feat. Allow the Bastard Sword to be treated as a true Hand and a Half weapon, and you are done. One fix vs 100 little tinkerings with all the exotics in the game

Give me some argument against my proposal other then:

- Don’t nerf, Buff only (this is your whish of endless buffing). Endless? No. Just one. Buff the Bastard sword. Make it worthwhile to take the feat.
- When you Nerf it other will become overpower (which is lie, in my proposal, no other weapons will be overpowered)
Because, basically, looking at YOUR math, the "Old Khopesh" Numbers do not stand out as super powered. The fall in line with everything else around it, especially considering the cost to use the weapon. You want a nerf for no reason other than the 19-20 x3 seems to irk you for some reason. You have yet to make a rational argument for the nerfage other than the Khopesh does slightly more damage than other weapons. Every other weapon is within ten percent of the average damage output.

All of these damage calculations are based on best case scenarios in a sterile environment. They are not based on actual game play and damage caused in game. So basically you are calling for a nerf based on what? A theoretical abstract. Not good enough.


as for the question I want you to answer: Is this another "Nerf Khopesh" thread by you? a simple Yes or No will suffice.

_

[joaofalcao]

While I can agree to the fact that weapons are poorly implemented on DDO, the changes presented are way too rough. Giving effects to base weapons sounds out of place. Effects like that sound like magical properties rather than anything else.

And again, nerfing kopeshes would grief those folks who have been farming GS kopeshes for ages.

A change to base dmg and crit modifier sounds a better solution to improve the other exotic weapons to compete with the kopesh.

If you boost other weapons instead of nerfing the ones most players got, you can create balance without grief.


Still, now that we are on the subject, eSoS is the best option for every situation(or 99%, whatever). A boost to other epic weapons could create balance and add some flavor to the epic experience.

[Ithaquah]

D&D has always had very minimal increases between weapons as you move up the scale, so why should there be a big jump for Exotic Weapons...

?? "because you need a feat to use them" ??

A rogue needs a feat to use a longsword, but there's not a big increase over a shortsword. It's only a die-step increase from a d6 to a d8. So along those lines it just makes sense that a bastard sword gets another die-step increase from d8 to d10.