19C/1F TR advice please

[PNellesen]

Hey all,

I have a 19C/1F who was my first character, and I never really had a good plan for him or knew exactly what I wanted him to focus on (I was learning as I went), so he's currently got a mishmash of melee/casting feats and stats. I have a casting-focused 16C who I'm really happy with, so I was thinking of TRing my first back into a 19C/1F, only this time much more focused on melee instead of offensive casting (but I did toss some Smiting enhancements in to give his Divine Punishment some oomph - love that spell), while still having a good pool of SP and good raid/party healing abilities. Anyway, here's what I've come up with. Any suggestions welcomed (I plan to swap Extend for Extra Turning at level 18 or so);

EDIT: Updated per suggestions below.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Neutral Good Human Male
(2 Fighter \ 18 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 326
Spell Points: 1118 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 6
Will: 15

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    24
Dexterity            10                    10
Constitution         15                    18
Intelligence         10                    10
Wisdom               14                    18
Charisma             14                    16

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               2                    11
Bluff                 2                     3
Concentration         6                    24
Diplomacy             2                     3
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                2                     3
Heal                  2                     6
Hide                  0                     0
Intimidate            2                     3
Jump                  4                    20
Listen                2                     4
Move Silently         0                     0
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                     0
Search                0                     0
Spot                  2                     4
Swim                  3                     7
Tumble                1                     2
Use Magic Device      n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Cleric)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Cleric
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 3 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 4 (Cleric)


Level 5 (Cleric)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 7 (Cleric)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 10 (Cleric)


Level 11 (Cleric)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Cleric)


Level 14 (Cleric)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 16 (Cleric)


Level 17 (Cleric)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 19 (Cleric)


Level 20 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant II
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Wisdom I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Improved Heal I
Enhancement: Improved Heal II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life III
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma I
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning II
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery II
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery III

[Kahless_of_Cannith]

Stats:

Why so much wisdom? Divine punishment has no save, blade barrier and cometfal do decent damage even on a save, and the amount of sp gained is trivial. Drop wisdom down to 14 or even 12, unless you care about saves.

Why so little charisma? Divine might is one of the few ways a cleric can up their melee dps, and you will need serious tome-age just to qualify for the first tier.

Feats:

Take power attack later. I'd suggest a second fighter level, since that would facilitate taking PA later and would allow you to fit in the whole thf line.

With regard to thf, why not go for the full line? Drop mental toughness, take the second fighter level, and you're golden.

Extend probably should be dropped. I would suggest Empower for divine punishments etc., but extra turning would also work. Spell Pen is probably not worth it, especially if you want to go melee over offensive casting. Keep in mind that empower also amps up bursts.

This method (dumping wisdom, ditching mental toughness) will cut into your sp pool. However, since you will be a melee, that will be much less of a concern than it would normally be. Just keep an aura up, throw bursts, and wade into the thick of melee. If you can get a conc opp greensteel or pull the elusive torc, your sp pool as a melee cleric will be almost literally infinite.

Here's my build for comparison, I think it's aiming for what you are: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3811103 (The final build is toward the end of page 2.)

[tekkentroop]

you call 18 wis 15 str melee focused?

If I wanted to go melee focused, Id take a horc (if available) or dwarf, give him max str and all lvl ups in str, and leave wis at about 14. A tier III greensteel weapon and a carnifex would help immensely leveling him up. Maybe take two levels of fighter and take the entire thf line, although Id prefer having only one level to keep RS aura at max (19 cl is 22 per tick with sup devotion, 16-18 cl just 18 per tick).

You definitely shouldnt take spell pen feats or enhancements.. anything with evasion and spell pen should just be chopped down. My battlecleric (actually quite close to your below build except that hes a dwarf, I wouldnt call him melee focused but just melee capable) uses mainly blade barrier, divine punishment and cometfall as offensive spells, and gets along well without spellpen.

about enhancements: wand/scroll mastery IV seems a bit overkill, better just get one or two tiers and take human greater adaptability wis or con. I also told you my opinion about prayer of incredible life II and III in the thread about your helf cleric. Maybe fit in the first tier of improved empower healing if you got some spare action points.

[kernal42]

Worth considering:

Estimate your melee dps using A_O's spreadsheet (or whatever your favourite tool is) with realistic gearings. Compare this dps output with both what you can do via just spells (mmm DP) and what the real melees are contributing. Ask yourself "is it worth it?" Also, post results here because I want to know.

-Kernal

[tekkentroop]

you can melee during the cooldown of DP so melee is definitely worth it.

[kernal42]

you can melee during the cooldown of DP so melee is definitely worth it.

Does not follow.

If your melee dps is contributing, for example, 5% as much as your divine punishment dps, then you'll end up with better dps by going pure cleric (thus boosting the base DP damage by 5.3%). Plus, the increased sp, spell slot, and reduced MAD will also make you a better healer.

If your melee dps is contributing, as another example, 50% as much as your divine punishment, then it becomes an interesting choice.

-Kernal

[Timmeke123456]

Hey man!

I'm goin 18clr/2Ftr & liking it a lot!

I went 18str, 14Con, 16Wis (32pt)& you can your 2extra tr points in char(extra turn)/dex(get rid of neg modifier)/int (extra skill pts) The stat's are working perfectly for me.

hope this helped a bit

[Sarisa]

I'm particularly fond of Divine Might based melee builds. Still have spell damage from Blade Barrier and Divine Punishment, and have good healing capability for raids between a good SP pool (SP from WIS isn't really that much, 27 or 29 for each 2 WIS) and a large number of turns.

[PNellesen]

While I still have trouble wrapping my head around a cleric who doesn't Max WIS (and with only maybe 1500SP at cap with gear) went ahead and dropped WIS, raised STR and CHA. Added a fighter level, and all level ups in STR. Now has Divine Might and full THF line.

To all you guys who play a Cleric like this - do you really end up with enough SP to heal raids like Shroud (pts.4 and 5), HoX, and VoD? I understand that with his HP, Conc. Opp item, Torc (if he can get it before TRing) and number of turns he should be doing most of his healing from right in the thick of things, but it's still hard to picture. I can easily heal GOOD raid groups with well under the 2K SP he has now, but it's when things go really south that the extra SP comes in really handy.

Thanks for the input

[cyadra]

While I still have trouble wrapping my head around a cleric who doesn't Max WIS (and with only maybe 1500SP at cap with gear) went ahead and dropped WIS, raised STR and CHA. Added a fighter level, and all level ups in STR. Now has Divine Might and full THF line.

To all you guys who play a Cleric like this - do you really end up with enough SP to heal raids like Shroud (pts.4 and 5), HoX, and VoD? I understand that with his HP, Conc. Opp item, Torc (if he can get it before TRing) and number of turns he should be doing most of his healing from right in the thick of things, but it's still hard to picture. I can easily heal GOOD raid groups with well under the 2K SP he has now, but it's when things go really south that the extra SP comes in really handy.

Thanks for the input

In a word.....yes

[phalaeo]

Looks pretty good to me- one nitpicky thing is asking if you have access to a +2 CHA tome, which would allow you to take DMII.

[PNellesen]

Here's something I worked up as a complement to the "Caster Half-Elf" in my sig. Max STR, as many THF feats as I could work in while still being able to be a decent raid healer and get Divine Intervention as well. (A lot less damage in melee than Human 18C/2F, but I really like being a pure cleric )

Character Generated Using: DDO Character Generator
Direct Link to Build: http://www.ddochargen.com/home.aspx?build=1787

Cleric 20
Male Half-Elf - True Neutral
________________________________________________________________

PAST LIVES SELECTED:
Cleric (1)
________________________________________________________________

Relevant Stats at End of Level 20 (with gear/feats/enhancements):
HP:447
SP:1888
STR:32(+11)
DEX:16(+3)
CON:22(+6)
INT:16(+3)
WIS:24(+7)
CHA:18(+4)

________________________________________________________________
LEVEL 1
Race Selected: Male Half-Elf
Alignment Selected: True Neutral
Class Selected: Cleric (Cleric 1)

Abilities Raised: 
STR: 18
DEX: 10
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 14
CHA: 10

Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (1), Concentration +2 (2),
Jump +1 (1), Tumble +1 (1)
Feats Selected: Toughness, Half-Elf Dilettante (Fighter)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 2:
Class Selected: Cleric (Cleric 2)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +2 (4)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 3:
Class Selected: Cleric (Cleric 3)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (2)
Feats Selected: Two-Handed Fighting
Tomes Applied: STR: +1
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 4:
Class Selected: Cleric (Cleric 4)
Abilities Raised: STR: 20
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +2 (6)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 5:
Class Selected: Cleric (Cleric 5)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (3)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 6:
Class Selected: Cleric (Cleric 6)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +2 (8)
Feats Selected: Empower Healing Spell
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 7:
Class Selected: Cleric (Cleric 7)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (4)
Tomes Applied: STR: +2, CON: +2, WIS: +2
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 8:
Class Selected: Cleric (Cleric 8)
Abilities Raised: STR: 22
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +2 (10)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 9:
Class Selected: Cleric (Cleric 9)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (5)
Feats Selected: Maximize Spell
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 10:
Class Selected: Cleric (Cleric 10)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (6)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 11:
Class Selected: Cleric (Cleric 11)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +2 (12)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 12:
Class Selected: Cleric (Cleric 12)
Abilities Raised: STR: 23
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (7)
Feats Selected: Power Attack
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 13:
Class Selected: Cleric (Cleric 13)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +2 (14)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 14:
Class Selected: Cleric (Cleric 14)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (8)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 15:
Class Selected: Cleric (Cleric 15)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +2 (16)
Feats Selected: Quicken Spell
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 16:
Class Selected: Cleric (Cleric 16)
Abilities Raised: STR: 24
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (9)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 17:
Class Selected: Cleric (Cleric 17)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (10)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 18:
Class Selected: Cleric (Cleric 18)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +2 (18)
Feats Selected: Improved Critical (Slashing)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 19:
Class Selected: Cleric (Cleric 19)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +2 (20)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 20:
Class Selected: Cleric (Cleric 20)
Abilities Raised: STR: 25
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (21), Diplomacy +1 (1)
Equipment Mods Changed To: HP: 105, SP: 400,
STR: 6, DEX: 6, CON: 6, INT: 6, WIS: 6, CHA: 6, FORT: 5,
REFL: 5, WILL: 5

Enhancements Selected:
Cleric Life Magic I,II,III
Cleric Divine Vitality I
Improved Heal I,II
Cleric Wisdom I,II
Human Improved Recovery I,II
Racial Toughness I,II
Cleric Prayer of Life I,II,III
Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I,II,III
Cleric Charisma I,II
Cleric Extra Turning I,II
Cleric Energy of the Zealot I,II,III
Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I,II,III
Cleric Improved Turning I,
Cleric Radiant Servant I,II
Half-Elf Fighter Strength I
Cleric Improved Spell Penetration I,
Cleric Smiting I,II
Cleric Prayer of Smiting I,II
Cleric Prayer of Incredible Smiting I,II
Human Versatility I,II
Cleric Divine Intervention

Balance:13
Concentration:27
Jump:12
Tumble:4

[bigolbear]

my advice is quite simple realy.

even if your making a battle cleric unless you want to go extreme for flavour reasons its a good idea to keep wisdom as your primary stat. 18 to start and all lvl ups there.

Let me explain why. A cleric with a starting str of 16, statring wis of 18 will be a good caster just like any other cleric and will hit an end game str of 24 to 28 depending on tomage and exceptional stuf. wheras a cleric that maxes out str with little to no wisdom will hit an end game str of about 34.

That means theres a meagre 5 (typicaly 7 2handed) damage diference gained for loosing out on all your offensive casting not to mention 200+sp diference.


If you do want to go extreme mele then you'll need both high str, and high base charisma for divine might.

[Firesmall_at]

As a human take human versatility 1 and maybe even tier 2 cause you are a melee build. For orange names. It amazes me that they rave about divine might tier 3 but skip this. It is such a cheap enhancement cost for a human. You get 5 uses, and I rarely use them all.

At lower lvls use it as an attack bonus and with divine power or divine favor (after lvl6) use the damage bonus instead. It is a cheap +2 or +3 to attack or damage that can be used with fighter haste. I keep fighter haste and human versitity clickie on my E and Q keys for quick activation in combat. Divine favor lvls 9-15 (if u have a +4 or +6 STR item to forgo divine power) as a mouse clickie then divine power takes over at latter lvls with a better "to hit" and hitpt buff. Earlier without a good STR item.

Many don't recommend the critical lines for enhancements. Just enough to get radiant servant 1 and 2.

Empower is more important than extend or extra turning to buff bursts and offensive spells.

I was also thinking Half-orc cause I think you buff power attack, and STR is cheaper.

Looks like a fun build, but I would tell the group you are melee focused.

[PNellesen]

@previous 2 posters - thanks for the input. Still trying to decide exactly how I want to play when I TR my main; My biggest concern is having enough SP to heal raids without pot usage, and once I have that covered, concentrate on melee. Right now, he has a bit over 2K, and he very, very seldom has to use a pot, even in Epics. I figure I can probably live with something in the 1600-1800 range, since I've got a pretty good feel now for how the different raids go (on Normal, at least )

[Firesmall_at]

@previous 2 posters - thanks for the input. Still trying to decide exactly how I want to play when I TR my main; My biggest concern is having enough SP to heal raids without pot usage, and once I have that covered, concentrate on melee. Right now, he has a bit over 2K, and he very, very seldom has to use a pot, even in Epics. I figure I can probably live with something in the 1600-1800 range, since I've got a pretty good feel now for how the different raids go (on Normal, at least )

Melee build = scrolls

I don't see a way around it.

Just buy the cheap ones and use mana instead of expensive ones. I have one raise dead scroll. Had it for over a month now. It is not for the random deaths and zerging. It is to get though a tough quest completion. Had one melee zerging and drop cause I would not raise him with a scroll. lol Like it is my obligation to burn 500 plat for his zerging ahead of everyone else. I don't care if he pays me for it. I would rather it go to someone who is a team player.

[PNellesen]

Melee build = scrolls

I don't see a way around it.

Oh, that's definitely part of the plan - I keep a stack of 100 Heal Scrolls, 100 Greater Restoration scrolls, and maybe 25 Rez scrolls on a hotbar the way it is, and in most situations other than boss fights they're my primary method of healing/raising.

[kernal42]

my advice is quite simple realy.

even if your making a battle cleric unless you want to go extreme for flavour reasons its a good idea to keep wisdom as your primary stat. 18 to start and all lvl ups there.

Let me explain why. A cleric with a starting str of 16, statring wis of 18 will be a good caster just like any other cleric and will hit an end game str of 24 to 28 depending on tomage and exceptional stuf. wheras a cleric that maxes out str with little to no wisdom will hit an end game str of about 34.

That means theres a meagre 5 (typicaly 7 2handed) damage diference gained for loosing out on all your offensive casting not to mention 200+sp diference.

No.

Sp differences from wisdom are extremely inefficient. 2 wisdom points for 28 sp is really not worthwhile. The difference between starting 14 and starting 18 with levelups is 9 wisdom (ten if you're human/helf), corresponding to 112 (140) sp. Meanwhile you save 10 build points and 5 levelup points to put into anything else (str, con, cha) for much better results.

Furthermore, while 7-8 damage a swing itself is quite significant, you'll notice even more your attack bonus increasing by 5. Melee casters tend to have more issues hitting end-game mobs, especially in epics, than pure melee builds. That +10 strength can be a 40-50% dps increase if you're not already hitting on a 2. That's far more significant than a 8% sp increase.

The only content in which this tradeoff is not worthwhile is content in which you are not meleeing.

-Kernal

[bigolbear]

ive played both varieties kernal (max str and max wis) - you right about the spell points i guess i over estimated a bit there, but ive honesly not found hiting an issue on a 26 str cleric - even on epics, the only exception i can think of so far is malicia. perhaps its the rest of the build i duno - i took dwarf axe bonus so i guess that shores up both to hit and damage some and ive always got divine power/favour going.

Id still maintain that even on a cleric that intends to mele it is beter in my experience to not forgoe the ability to reliably land your spells.

[kernal42]

ive played both varieties kernal (max str and max wis) - you right about the spell points i guess i over estimated a bit there, but ive honesly not found hiting an issue on a 26 str cleric - even on epics, the only exception i can think of so far is malicia. perhaps its the rest of the build i duno - i took dwarf axe bonus so i guess that shores up both to hit and damage some and ive always got divine power/favour going.

Id still maintain that even on a cleric that intends to mele it is beter in my experience to not forgoe the ability to reliably land your spells.

It's true that divines do better here than, for example, arcanes on account of having sweet buffs like divine favor to shore up their weaknesses.

On your build, did you use:
THF, TWF, or S&B?
Power Attack?

It's certainly true that I may be overestimating the importance of to-hit for a Two-hander; that -4 for (large) TWF is not insignificant. The dwarven axe enhancements obviously help as well.

That said: If you want to dps, you should probably be half-orc and/or TWF.
Horc gets +3 str and +10 damage (via PA enh) over helf, for +11-13 base damage, or 14-16 damage/swing [and more with glancing blows] (vs 0% fort with falchion). That ends up with much more dps than the 3d6 (10.5) helf SA damage, and more reliable too. You do suffer from a net -1 to-hit.

Helf (or dwarf) is probably better if you're TWF, although feats are tighter if you want to use khopeshs. TWF is a little harder on the stats, but you're 34-pt build. Even if you take a small hit to base con, the increased healing amp and con/toughness enh you can get from helf probably nets you an increase in survivability, as well as dps.

Cheers,
Kernal