Sorcs need more SP!

[danlan]

A human sorc with wizard past life (even just 1) can hit 41 dc in one school and 39-40 in all others with only +2 tome (and litany ). With debuffs and shorter cooldowns I don't think there is much difference in cc ability.
But as for first life wf sorc, I think you should only use irresistable dance for cc...

[Junts]

Okay, corrected Sorc charisma to 38 for no yugo/shipbuff and lowered SP to 2946. The wizard has increased spell points due to the AM prestige- being my best guess, Solomastaa is probably Necro/conj and only took the web sla so he actually gains +100 sp from AM prestige. An enchant/other focus AM would most likely break even or have a slight penalty to sp depending on how many sla's they take, and a palemaster will have -100 sp for lich form.


A Necro/conj focus AM(2400 sp) is about 550 sp behind with both mental toughness feats, 18% less sp, 22% less with 1 mental toughness feat.
Enchant/conj focus AM(2300 sp) is about 650 sp behind with both mental toughness feats, 21% less sp, 25% less with 1 mental toughness feat.
A palemaster(2200 sp) is about 850 sp behind with 1 mental toughness and Lich forms -100, 28% less sp, 32% less no mental toughess.

If wizards have on average +5 more DC's than sorcerers then mobs will save 25% less vs wizards. That is assuming the sorcerer fails a DC check when a mob rolls a 15 or higher, but if the sorcerer fails only on mobs that roll 16 or higher then wizards only have 20% less saves, 15% less if mob fails on 17 or higher, 10% at 18 or higher and finally only 5% at 19-20.

Is it balanced? I would say its just about right myself, but I haven't played a sorcerer yet.

As i said in my initial post, both wizards are necro/enchant and only have hypnotism and DC boosts. I specifically said it's the archmage builds that get into the ballpark of sorc SP numbers.

Wizards have the following dc advantage

capstone: 1 universal
archmage 4/5 or lichform pm: innately up to +4 in single school, total (always necro for lichform pm, variable for archmage)
secondary archmage and/or vampire pm option: +2 in 2nd school, again variable for am, highly unlikely for pm

On the PM side, I am includiong their ability to use yugo int all the time. AMs dont usuaully have that advantage. Sorcs can always use theirs as well.

The thing is, the only situations you will really notice this are landing instakills on very high fort melee-type mobs and trying to land holds on high-save orange named mobs. Regular trash, even with the buff to minion, don't have good enough saves to resist a well built sorceror on a regular basis. IMO the orange named instadeath immunity hurt wizards more than sorcs. While I used to be able to energy drain once or twice and finger those mobs, many of them the palemasters didn't even have to energy drain, and they always also had the option of easily loading powerword kill for them. Now, while their advantage in landing spells exists, its a lot less noticable IMO because a lot less monsters exist where their higher performance makes a big difference. Mostly it boils down to being able to wail stuff like the ogres and trolls in von1 and the like still, whereas those mobs have such great fort saves that sorcs are forced toa ctually rely on their nuking ability (probably after an extremely easy-to-land masshold to boost the damage).

[danlan]

As i said in my initial post, both wizards are necro/enchant and only have hypnotism and DC boosts. I specifically said it's the archmage builds that get into the ballpark of sorc SP numbers.

Wizards have the following dc advantage

capstone: 1 universal
archmage 4/5 or lichform pm: innately up to +4 in single school, total (always necro for lichform pm, variable for archmage)
secondary archmage and/or vampire pm option: +2 in 2nd school, again variable for am, highly unlikely for pm

On the PM side, I am includiong their ability to use yugo int all the time. AMs dont usuaully have that advantage. Sorcs can always use theirs as well.

The thing is, the only situations you will really notice this are landing instakills on very high fort melee-type mobs and trying to land holds on high-save orange named mobs. Regular trash, even with the buff to minion, don't have good enough saves to resist a well built sorceror on a regular basis. IMO the orange named instadeath immunity hurt wizards more than sorcs. While I used to be able to energy drain once or twice and finger those mobs, many of them the palemasters didn't even have to energy drain, and they always also had the option of easily loading powerword kill for them. Now, while their advantage in landing spells exists, its a lot less noticable IMO because a lot less monsters exist where their higher performance makes a big difference. Mostly it boils down to being able to wail stuff like the ogres and trolls in von1 and the like still, whereas those mobs have such great fort saves that sorcs are forced toa ctually rely on their nuking ability (probably after an extremely easy-to-land masshold to boost the damage).

I think for wf archmage, drinking yug pots and have 75% is quite fine and I personally never die from critical hits.

[Tirisha]

As i said in my initial post, both wizards are necro/enchant and only have hypnotism and DC boosts. I specifically said it's the archmage builds that get into the ballpark of sorc SP numbers.

Wizards have the following dc advantage

capstone: 1 universal
archmage 4/5 or lichform pm: innately up to +4 in single school, total (always necro for lichform pm, variable for archmage)
secondary archmage and/or vampire pm option: +2 in 2nd school, again variable for am, highly unlikely for pm

On the PM side, I am includiong their ability to use yugo int all the time. AMs dont usuaully have that advantage. Sorcs can always use theirs as well.

The thing is, the only situations you will really notice this are landing instakills on very high fort melee-type mobs and trying to land holds on high-save orange named mobs. Regular trash, even with the buff to minion, don't have good enough saves to resist a well built sorceror on a regular basis. IMO the orange named instadeath immunity hurt wizards more than sorcs. While I used to be able to energy drain once or twice and finger those mobs, many of them the palemasters didn't even have to energy drain, and they always also had the option of easily loading powerword kill for them. Now, while their advantage in landing spells exists, its a lot less noticable IMO because a lot less monsters exist where their higher performance makes a big difference. Mostly it boils down to being able to wail stuff like the ogres and trolls in von1 and the like still, whereas those mobs have such great fort saves that sorcs are forced toa ctually rely on their nuking ability (probably after an extremely easy-to-land masshold to boost the damage).

My sorc has a 37-39 Necro and I notice a big difference in most quests I run between that and My palemaster buddy with *edit* 40-42. Typically I have to throw drain life at mobs he'll just sling a finger at and my SP dries up a lot quicker from repeated use (if I don't throw drain life before a finger at pretty much any melee target, it dries up even faster.). That's not counting the fact that my Spell pen is significantly lower for things like devils considering there is no way in the nine hells I could fit in the feats and still be a Savant with some nuking cappability. Furthermore my *edit* 40-42 DC Palemaster friend notices a huge difference between his Saves DCs and my *edit* 42- 44 DC Palemaster friend.

The wizard is also gonna be able to run higher secondary DCs like enchantment so he can dance mobs a lot more effectively, setting it up better for circle+wail.

1 DC is a huge thing when you are throwing necro and a sorc will forever be down 3 (more realistically 4 since fitting in a Wizard past life feat on a sorc is tough though doable) DC which is more than worth 800 SP. 3 DC is the difference with a lot of mobs between throwing debuffs and having too.

The main problem I see is that the end game Sorcerers nuking advantage over a wizard is marginal at best and only situationally better while Wizards will forever enjoy significantly higher DCs. (a mob having to roll a 15 instead of say a 12 on a D20 to survive is a gigantic leap in my mind)

Edit for Note: I run a lot of fens, EDA, EATQ, EOOB, Sentials, not much Von at all. Mobs I'd have trouble on with 39 DC. Most any Suaghin (got I murdered that), Hobgoblins, Almost anything in EATQ save the casters mostly, Channelers, Orc Priests, Scorpians, Almost any Archer minion. Most of these things I'll either Circle (or crushing despair)+wail and prey (when it's off timer) or have to Drain life before Fingering for a reliable chance of taking it down. Almost any epic quest I can think off I'd be way better off with 3 higher DC cept when hitting soft targets *mostly just the occasional caster*

[wootvenu]

last life my sorc had 2900 sp! enough for me!