Assassins! Begin Breaking the Rules! THF! FTW!

[Glenalth]

If you're looking for a higher first attack bonus, look at doing part of your attack chain and then tumbling. You can then wander around and your next attack will be at the point in the chain that you tumbled.

The original starting area combat trainer used to explain this to people, along with training how to block attacks and such. I miss him and his golems.

[Cardtrick]

The fundamental problem is very easy: Static per-hit damage bonuses such as sneak attack scale with exactly one property - attack speed. TWF has a higher amount of attacks per time frame and thus is preferable to THF. That's even the problem for Acrobats who get the fastest THF attack speed in the game with their sticks.

That's actually not true, though. Static per-hit damage bonuses also scale with the percentage of attacks that hit. The argument that nerdychaz (and some others) are making is that TWFing rogues miss often enough that their attack speed bonus is partially negated.

Now, personally, I disagree with them. I think enough gear and buffs are available that to-hit is not a major concern, at least when sneak attacking. Yes, a TWF rogue that's not fully-geared will have to switch off Power Attack sometimes -- but TWF without power attack still beats THF with power attack for a pure rogue getting sneak attacks.

My feeling is that any non-acrobat character taking more than 6 rogue levels and interested at all in min-maxing should go TWF. They lose too much potential sneak attack damage, otherwise. In fact, I would say the "best" builds for rogues right now are pure 20 TWF strength-based rogues, 13 rogue THF acrobat builds with some monk and/or fighter (these builds give up a lot of sneak attack damage, but make up for it with survivability and significant non-sneaking DPS), or 2 rogue splashes for evasion and skills. Any other split or configuration is non-ideal. That doesn't mean you shouldn't build it, if you find it fun -- but it does mean you probably shouldn't post on the forums about how it's superior to a more typical build.

[CaptainCameo]

The main hand attack does not need to hit to trigger an off hand attack. With GTWF, 80% of all main hand swings carry an off-hand attack as well.


A quarterstaff Acrobat is a flavor build.

A quarterstaff Assassin is just plain gimped. It makes no sense mechanically or thematically.

Seriously. You're giving up 80% sneak attack for +2 to hit?

And under 13 INT isn't "embarrassing". A Rogue could go 6 INT, and still no-fail epic traps.

You missed the point and failed the test. Your -2 INT bonus didn't help.

And sneak attack only works if the enemy isn't looking at you, which in most cases it is because you're causing more pain than everyone else.

[Cardtrick]

And sneak attack only works if the enemy isn't looking at you, which in most cases it is because you're causing more pain than everyone else.

No. A well-played rogue can avoid aggro while still doing more damage than anyone else. You get sneak attacks whenever you don't have aggro. Two or three tiers of Subtle Backstabbing, use of Bluff and/or Dipl, various gear (Tharne's, etc.) all reduce threat and let you sneak attack pretty much at-will against unfortified enemies.

[Kinerd]

And, it might actually be much more than +2 to hit when you've adjusted for STR (or DEX). If a standard build starts with 14 in the key stat and the THF build can manage to start with 18 then the total difference might be +4 to hit.

If that means 95% to-hit on epic vs 75% to-hit then the total damage numbers could begin to add up in favor of the THF build -- especially if you figure ESOS for weapon (or similar).

It is important to remember that the 3rd and 4th animations are at +5 and +10 to hit. As such, 4 lower to-hit means 95% vs. 85%. Additionally, the attack rolls lost are necessarily the low end (which is to say not criticals), so the actual DPS loss is even less. A Seeker item avoids losses due to critical confirmation.

In fact, I would say the "best" builds for rogues right now are pure 20 TWF strength-based rogues, 13 rogue THF acrobat builds with some monk and/or fighter (these builds give up a lot of sneak attack damage, but make up for it with survivability and significant non-sneaking DPS), or 2 rogue splashes for evasion and skills.

Another good one is 19 rogue 1 monk unarmed TWFers. This is especially relevant in this thread as they have none of the usual to-hit penalty associated with TWF.

[Battlehawke]

I have a Dwarven 2HF Axer that is 13Rogue/6Barb/1Ftr that absolutely rocks.. He is Max Str, High Con build, and can hit all epic traps....dex, wis, and cha were all dump stats... His DPS rocks vs Mobs, and with rages, he destroys Bosses.. I love it....

[Chai]

The main hand attack does not need to hit to trigger an off hand attack. With GTWF, 80% of all main hand swings carry an off-hand attack as well.

Ganked, right outa EQ.

A quarterstaff Acrobat is a flavor build.

Its not max DPS to the spreadsheet gamers, so its a flavor build? Theres a PRE centered around it too. I suppose hunter of the dead and Stalwart defenders are flavor builds as well. TWF khopesh is a flavor build in epic wizard king. The horc staff builds rock their face.

And under 13 INT isn't "embarrassing". A Rogue could go 6 INT, and still no-fail epic traps.

We owe this to the "we want a challenge" crowd, who will moan and complain they want a challenge right up to and until they are given one, and the minute their dumped int max str khopesh assassin couldnt hit those traps in epics it was three "ZOMG how much do I have to GIMP my toon to hit epic traps?" threads a week for 8 months straight. The end result of that is that a single celled organism who can sneak attack for 125 points of SA damage per hit can now do epic traps no fail. I disagreed with that decision. Epic is supposed to be tough. In my opinion this means you either build for it or you dont succeed. If that means losing 2 points of str so your rogue only has 54 buffed str instead of 56, in order to build those other stats in, so be it.

[Aeolwind]

Ganked, right outa EQ.

I thought it, but didn't say it

[kmau]

I fully support THF rogues sneak-attacking a whole bunch of mobs with glancing blows.

[Tinco]

That's actually not true, though. Static per-hit damage bonuses also scale with the percentage of attacks that hit. The argument that nerdychaz (and some others) are making is that TWFing rogues miss often enough that their attack speed bonus is partially negated.

The typical disadvantage of TWFing is a mere -2 to all attacks. This can be achieved by taking OTWF or a light weapon in the offhand. Which means that a TWF rogue suffers from 10% more misses, probably 15% if you max str and dump dex for THF (which has other downsides like reflex save).

So the question is: Is there a reasonable (or even any) amount of game content where THF rogues could outshine TWF rogues? I myself am quite confident that the 10-15% (worst case) more misses don't even nearly make up for the number of attacks lost from not taking TWF which would render the question pretty much obsolete.

The statements that THF rogues 'rock', do 'a lot of damage' or 'are better because they hit more often' are worthless in the sense of game mechanics. Play what you like, I mean I played a Staff-acrobat for quite some time (though I had no delusions that in a lot of fights TWF would be more beneficial for my damage), but if you make bold statements, try to back the claims up by some numbers or at least some reasonable pro and contra arguments.

@Chai: Not that tiresome memento again. Everyone can and should play whatever they like and there are folks around for every style of play, but here it's about the poster of this thread and his voluminous presentation of the solution for all rogue problems. Horrible exaggeration towards the tohit differences between the styles, an implication that starting int 16 is needed to get enough skills/hit epic traps, the citing of outdated sources and so on. It would be ok as am open discussion (what do I gain from going THF?) but the way this was presented is just bad in my opinion.

[dingal]

This post serves as a prequel to my upcoming assassin guide. 40 pages of instant death!

What has the standard been? Strength based, two weapon fighting rogues all swinging khopeshes. Those who go dex based are seen as outsiders from the "L337."

The creativity has been sucked out of the rogue.

What needs to change? Your idea of what a rogue should do.

As of now, rogues MUST have TWF, Power Attack, Improved Crit, Khopeshes, Strength, Dex, Int, Con, Lots of Con! That means everything else suffers. You can't forget about your charisma or wisdom, or those skills suffer! We don't have dump stats, we have burdens!

We end up with high DPS, but can't hit much on epic content. Sure, fully bard buffed, double madstoned, with divine favor clickies etc. etc. etc. we can hit it. But, that is a lot of work for little reward.

We get tons of skill points, but more would be cool, except we cant, we dump statted int for everything else we need!

We need at a minimum, 12 for strength (add tomes), 15 for dex (add tomes), 13 for int (yeah, you could go lower, but it's embarassing), and 14 for con (ADD TOMES!!! MOAR TOMES)!!!!

ZOMG

Okay, then you are left to go on to feats. Everyone must have Toughness, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, IC Slash, WPN Proficiency Khopesh, maybe power attack and once you step foot in an epic dungeon, you can't hit anything! You can't even assassinate because you miss!

So, you can do one of these things well, and the rest you just suck at. You can either assassinate and do traps well, DPS well, or maybe have some skills, or perhaps you die well because you forgot about CON.

Okay, I exaggerate, but I propose a solution.

Well now my friends, it is time to break free from dexterity all together! DEX CAN BE A DUMP STAT!!!

You need to give up having pairs of weapons. Open up your inventory to PHAT LEWT!! MAX INT, STR, and maybe a bit of CON, Nah, MOAR CON!!!

How could you possibly benefit? Well, first off, you take a negative to your BAB due to TWF. Didn't know that? They did it one of the last updates. You see, TWF feats only grant a percentage chance the second strike will hit at all, for that to succeed, the first must hit. Instead you always take a negative to your BAB, unless you take OTWF.

Cite your source NOOB!
http://ddowiki.com/page/Attack_sequence
http://ddowiki.com/page/Two_Weapon_Fighting
http://ddowiki.com/page/Update_5
http://ddowiki.com/page/Oversized_Two_Weapon_Fighting

So, what do you do for weapons? Well, you could be a quarterstassassin! Now make that name work with a halfling and I will LOL. Of course, if you were to do HELF, you could take the fighter dilly for proficiency to everything!

And for god's sake DO NOT multiclass assassin! You fool!

What are the benefits of this? High int = high assassinate, trap skill, more skills, etc.

Feats? What about feats? What, you don't know what to take? DO NOT TAKE the THF line! It is unnecessary and draws aggro! Do you want aggro? Not in my DMZ soldier!

What about Cleave? Cleave rocks! Ever proc an a sneak attack vorpal on a cleave? Me either! I'm at level 13 with this one, 5 to go! Then I can do it!

Maybe you don't want cleave? What do you want? I don't care!

Hahaha, silly noob, your evasion will suck. Haha! Ignorant elitist! I have the feat insightful reflexes! I really am smart! So says my 32 INT!

I will edit this post later with some more coherent information you can make use of. In the mean time, I think I need to let the caffeine wear off.......

Nothing wrong with building for flavor and I applaud the efforts but the way the game is now DPS is king. I've got a 42 standing str rogue with only a +2 tome. I could get 44-48 with madstone/double which puts me in the wonderful position of hitting most everything especially if I'm playing as I should and getting my sneak attacks and using my assasin boosts to get them even higher.

I started with an 8 base int and I can't assassinate anything but with my gear I can search, spot and disable anything in the game and I don't need to assassinate because my DPS is extremely high, I have a RadII khopesh guaranteeing sneak attacks and every 20 I roll is a vorpal as long as the mobs are under 1000hp which doesnt take long with 40% haste boost and haste.

I can also 100% UMD heal scrolls at all times, rez party members and buff myself and top top it off I've got 464hp.

I could use different weapons, gain a feat and do some of the other things you've suggested but there's really not a big reason to do so UNLESS it's just how I feel like playing.

The reason most rogues go the route they do with khopeshes etc is it's the best way to get the most mobs killed quickly and dead mobs can't hurt anyone.

I don't begrudge anyone for their build choices as long as they have enough con to not explode every 2 seconds and enough of "whatever else" to make a contribution to their group.

I personally like hitting hard and killing things fast so I went pure str/con and let gear do the rest.

[Razcar]

Epic is supposed to be tough. In my opinion this means you either build for it or you dont succeed. If that means losing 2 points of str so your rogue only has 54 buffed str instead of 56, in order to build those other stats in, so be it.

But that was hardly the case, was it? I understand if you exaggerate for flourish, but this was little too much.

[dkyle]

You missed the point and failed the test. Your -2 INT bonus didn't help.

What point? The OP said less than 13 Int was an embarrassment for Rogue. I assumed that referred to traps (blowing a trap being generally embarrassing), because the alternative was that he was saying any Rogue that can't assassinate is an embarrassment. Which would be a ridiculous thing to say.

And sneak attack only works if the enemy isn't looking at you, which in most cases it is because you're causing more pain than everyone else.

Not if the Rogue is competently built and well geared.

Ever heard of threat reduction?

A Rogue that's in a group and not getting SA is doing it wrong, unless they're in trivial content where it's better to just zerg like Barbarian.

Ganked, right outa EQ.

Good mechanics are good mechanics. A much better system than that absurd attack sequnce based system we used to have. I couldn't care less who did it first.

Its not max DPS to the spreadsheet gamers, so its a flavor build? Theres a PRE centered around it too. I suppose hunter of the dead and Stalwart defenders are flavor builds as well. TWF khopesh is a flavor build in epic wizard king. The horc staff builds rock their face.

All Rogues are flavor builds if all you pay attention to is Wiz King.

Sorry, but being somewhat more mediocre in one endgame quest out of dozens doesn't elevate it above flavor build.

DDO is a vastly varied game. Just about any build can find a place to shine. Doesn't mean all builds are above flavor build status.

[Kinerd]

Its not max DPS to the spreadsheet gamers, so its a flavor build? Theres a PRE centered around it too. I suppose hunter of the dead and Stalwart defenders are flavor builds as well.

Would you argue that Deepwood Snipers are anything but flavor builds?

TWF khopesh is a flavor build in epic wizard king. The horc staff builds rock their face.

Let us consider this mathematically.

TWF Khopesh rogues are perfectly able to use Maces - criticals are largely irrelevant against undead, and they have no khopesh-based enhancements. Our TWF rogue will therefore have two Triple Positive Heavy Maces, and will start with 14 Strength. Triple Positive means Holy, Good Burst, Good Blast, and Greater Disruption, or 2d6 + 1d6 + 6d6 on hit, 3d6 + 3d6 on crit, and 4d6 + 100 or death on vorpal. We will give our Horc staff user 20 starting Strength and +4 damage from enhancements. Each will have 5 level-ups, a +6 item, and a +2 tome.

TWF
main hand
19 * (5.5 + 8 + 30.5) + 1 * 21 + 114
off hand
0.8 * [19 * (5.5 + 4 + 30.5) + 1 * 21 + 114]
total damage
1687

effective swing rate with Haste Boost IV over Haste:
(10 * 102.2 + 18.8 * 133.3) / 30 = 117.6

Damage per Second:
(1687 / 20) * (117.6 / 60) = 165.3

THF
main
19 * (4.5 + 16 + 4 + 30.5) + 2 * 21 + 114
glancing
.75 * .5 * 19 * (4.5 + 16 + 4 + .15 * 30.5)
total damage
1408

effective swing rate with Haste Boost IV over Haste:
(10 * 113.3 + 18.8 * 140.1) / 30 = 125.6

Damage per Second:
(1408 / 20) * (125.6 / 60) = 147.4

.

We can also investigate how much additional damage bonus, Strength bonus, and Power Attack will change each number.

For damage bonus, we have:
TWF
1.8 * (19 / 20) * (117.6 / 60) = 3.35
THF
1.375 * (19 / 20) * (125.6 / 60) = 2.73
Hence, every additional point of damage bonus (Claw set, Prayer, Bard song, etc.) is better for the TWF.

For Strength, we have:
TWF
1.4 * (19 / 20) * (117.6 / 60) = 2.61
THF
1.375 * (19 / 20) * 1.5 * (125.6 / 60) = 4.10
Hence, every additional point of Strength bonus (exceptional, Rage, etc.) is better for the THF.

And for Power Attack, we have:
TWF
1.8 * (19 / 20) * (117.6 / 60) = 3.35
THF
1.375 * (19 / 20) * 2 * (125.6 / 60) = 5.47

So, if we suppose our rogues happen to have an additional 10 damage bonus, 4 Strength bonus, and 5 Power Attack, then the overall change is:

10 * (3.35 - 2.73) + 4 * (2.61 - 4.10) + 5 * (3.35 - 5.47) = -10.36

Which is to say, 10.36 DPS in favor of the THF build. As the TWF had an 18 point lead to start, we would still expect the TWF build to do more DPS.

.

We can also investigate the possibility of miss chance. We know that each miss roll will only be a miss half the time until that miss roll exceeds 6, so let us see if the base THF build described above can catch the TWF build by that point. The critical threat and vorpal portions of the formula remain unchanged, so for each miss roll we are subtracting:

.5 * (5.5 + 8 + 30.5) + .5 * .8 * (5.5 + 4 + 30.5)
= 38 total damage
= (38 / 20) * (117.6 / 60) = 3.72 DPS

Therefore, if the base TWF misses on rolls 2, 3, 4, and 5, they will still do more DPS than the base THF build. For the better-geared builds, the base TWF will do more DPS even if it misses on rolls 2 and 3. It is worth pointing out that the THF enjoys at most a 7 to-hit margin over the TWF, so it will never drastically outpace the TWF build.

.

.

In conclusion, I find your claim questionable. If you have figures to back it up, I would like to see them.

[nerdychaz]

@ Tinco

his voluminous presentation of the solution for all rogue problems. Horrible exaggeration towards the tohit differences between the styles, an implication that starting int 16 is needed to get enough skills/hit epic traps, the citing of outdated sources and so on.

I apologize for my caffeine enhanced, lolcat influenced, energetic writing style. I have a bit of a problem with caffeine... there isn't enough. I did not want to give the impression that I was proposing the solution to all rogue problems. Rather, I was proposing a new (or old) way of making the ASSASSIN do something different. I suggested 13 as the minimum, in my opinion, as you can still end up with a useful assassinate in most situations. You neglect my post where I concur that a minimum int of 6 is completely viable for hitting traps. Read the thread. Cite your sources!

@ Bigolbear

Ive got a 2 hander str based rogue, and it works rather well so kudos on your post and thinking outside the box.

hes 12 rogue, 6 paly and will be 13 rogue 6 pally and um.. havent decided, probably 1 wiz or fighter, hes a warforge and uses greatswords.

I really hope you are joking. I appreciate your support, but it sounds like you really have a mess there. I think you just ruined a pally, or a rogue. I haven't decided yet.



@ All

We all play rogues differently and in different situations. We are all geared differently, and find different ways of overcoming our shortcomings (BAB 15, etc). An assassin can dump stat INT for a higher attack and end up with a useless assassinate. Why not dump stat DEX, lose a bit of DPS, and have a great assassinate?

My personal goals for the build:

Higher Attack I hate seeing so many misses against epic bosses. Dumping Dex grants more ability points. Yes, I can hit everything when fully buffed. I can't always guarantee that a bard will be around or the cleric will use prayer.

Higher Assassinate 41+ Assassinate works in epic now. Why not use the single most powerful melee attack in the game?

More skills Yes, I like to have Bluff and Diplomacy. One is AOE, One is single target. Both on the same cooldown timer. I use them in different situations. The new inherent threat reduction of these skills is awesome! Sure, you don't need spot or tumble, but it is nice to have. We can't all remember where every single trap is in the game. Tumble is nice because I like to swap between FF and striders (sometimes I forget to swap). I also like to jump off cliffs without FF on at all! Yeah, sure, I could get X item and do Y instead. But, I either don't have that gear/slot/time/ or need.

More Feats When considering TR, the Sneak of Shadows feat looks beautiful. Not everyone wants to play human. The TWF line is at minimum 3 feats, 4 to overcome the negative to BAB (or using a light weapon which is a reduction in DPS which seems so important to everyone). Toughness is a requirement. Weapon proficiency Khopesh or Weapon finnesse is needed to be a good two weapon fighter. That leaves 1 feat. Power attack is popular for raid DPS, but there is a host of other options. I found myself taking precision (based upon the opportunist build), which I turn on only when I can't hit epic boss AC because of any number of situations (i.e. death = loss of buffs) or to set up for an assassinate where I don't care about my damage but really I want the attack to land. Why not avoid a lot of this through other means?

Higher Base Damage You apply 150% of your strength to damage. You apply an additional 10 to damage from power attack vs. 5 from TWF. This help immensely against the non-fleshy variety.

Why DPS if it's dead? Assassinate is sooooo incredibly useful in epic level content that the mild loss of DPS is not much compared to it's ability. If you consider the four second cooldown timer, and can reliably hit 80% of all assassinates

Where I agree with you

TWF Strength khopesh rogues rogues are the top DPS in the game. My main proves it, of course, he has a great assassinate too (39). http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af273/guildleadership/ScreenShot00075.jpg Yes, that is a strength based TWF halfling rogue, the "gold standard."

DPS is important, 17d6 of sneak attack dice is nothing to laugh at. Unless it's an evil "I'm going to kill everything" laugh.

Where I disagree with you

"All rogues must be TWF top DPS, if you are not, you are doing it wrong." DDO is a game of more than DPS. If that were the name of the game, I would go play WoW. Assassins can do less than optimal DPS and still be kill leaders via assassinate and a higher base damage. http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af273/guildleadership/ScreenShot00075.jpg Yeah, it's not genesis point, it's my test toon at level 9. I am quite happy with the result.

"Minimum intelligence does not have an effect on gameplay." Yes, it does. You lose the ability to assassinate at epic level and the ability to use a whole host of class skills and even non class skills if you so choose. The trade off is just as similar as dropping your DPS a bit to increase your assassinate. In fact, I find the drop in DPS a lot smaller of a problem than a loss of an effective assassinate. 3d6 SA dice is not the only reason to play an assassin. If that were the case, I would probably be playing a mechanic.

Conclusion

I am not saying that this idea is better, rather, I am saying there are other ways of effectively doing things. As I said in the OP, this is a bit of a preview to a 40 page guide on assassins that I will be releasing in about a month. It may be 50 by that time, more if I illustrate it well. As I said previously, that guide is 90% about two handed fighting. It does strongly state that the THF rogue is non optimal, but it has it's applications. Just wait until you read my treatise on Dex Vs. Strength.

I should say, i now hate the cliche' "thinking outside the box" as it implies the current "orthodox" is sound.

I will be posting my planned TR build in a separate thread and link it.

[nerdychaz]

As promised

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...00#post3853400

[brzytki]

Higher Attack I hate seeing so many misses against epic bosses. Dumping Dex grants more ability points. Yes, I can hit everything when fully buffed. I can't always guarantee that a bard will be around or the cleric will use prayer.

Looks like u need some more gear.

Weapon proficiency Khopesh or Weapon finnesse is needed to be a good two weapon fighter.

Not true. You are perfectly fine with rapiers, DAs depending on race. The difference between khopeshes and rapiers is around 20DPS which for average 500DPS assassin is 4%, even less if u have higher DPS like my rogue (breaks 600 using rapiers over 5min, ~630 over 4min). That's not really worth a feat for me, especially on non-human TRs. Rapiers + Quickdraw (even while not being a drow) brings total DPS very close to kopeshes while still maintaining the advantage of higher crit range).

I found myself taking precision (based upon the opportunist build), which I turn on only when I can't hit epic boss AC because of any number of situations (i.e. death = loss of buffs) or to set up for an assassinate where I don't care about my damage but really I want the attack to land. Why not avoid a lot of this through other means?

There was a thread just after the change to precision feat in which it was proved that u do even less damage with precision on but like u said u hit more often.

Higher Base Damage You apply 150% of your strength to damage. You apply an additional 10 to damage from power attack vs. 5 from TWF. This help immensely against the non-fleshy variety.

You are forgetting that +5 dmg from PA is applied to both hands while TWFing.

Why DPS if it's dead? Assassinate is sooooo incredibly useful in epic level content that the mild loss of DPS is not much compared to it's ability. If you consider the four second cooldown timer, and can reliably hit 80% of all assassinates.

It would be even more powerful if they hadn't cut mobs hp in half. I don't get the part about 4 second cooldown. You know it's 15 seconds, right?

[Kinerd]

An assassin can dump stat INT for a higher attack and end up with a useless assassinate. Why not dump stat DEX, lose a bit of DPS, and have a great assassinate?

Because Assassinate is a parlor trick. You must account for the time it takes to maneuver into position and hide. More importantly, you could just as easily drop Strength by 2 rather than tank Dex and be only 1 or 2 DC behind. Most importantly, TWF has an enormous, enormous advantage when it comes to the Assassin III ability of vorpal on 20.

Weapon proficiency Khopesh or Weapon finnesse is needed to be a good two weapon fighter.

Khopesh is needed to be an elite TWF. It is very easy, especially on a rogue, to make a good TWF without it. Weapon finesse frequently makes for a worse TWF.

Higher Base Damage You apply 150% of your strength to damage. You apply an additional 10 to damage from power attack vs. 5 from TWF. This help immensely against the non-fleshy variety.

As demonstrated above, THF acrobats are still behind in those scenarios. THF assassins would be even worse.

[bigolbear]

@ nerdychaz

"I really hope you are joking. I appreciate your support, but it sounds like you really have a mess there. I think you just ruined a pally, or a rogue. I haven't decided yet. "

no, not joking. I realy do have that character and for what its worth im known for making 'messes', and then making them work.

my intention on the build was a warforge comando, solid up front damage, but more with sneak - a good ranged option and ability to have significant burst dps.

I wasnt trying to build a 'top dps' character, it was most definatly a flavour/roleplay build, but taking that into consideration my damage is prety comparable to a fighter or a pure pally and considering at lvl 18 not fully geared im sitting at 400 hp with 30 to 40 saves surviveablility is good.

the synergies there incase you havent worked it out are +4 to damage, +2 to hit from pally and exalted smites and divine sacrifice. The high charisma gives good saves to all, a great umd score and being warforge and pally all my imunites are covered.

As others have stated (correctly) a rogue will never have as good dps going 2 handed than one going 2 weapon. The advantage comes from having more 'up front' damage which is traded from sneak attack, and a higher to hit.

My opinion is that a rogue who chooses to go with 2 handers has made a concious choice to trade 'sneak attack dps' for 'non sneak attack dps'.

Oh and glancing blows have a chance to trigger sneak attack in the same way that they have a chance to trigger weapon effects such as 'flaming'.

[Cyr]

Having run with too many int based rogues recently for my tastes I can safely say that a twf int based rogue for assassinates sounds like a truly horrible idea.