Assassins! Begin Breaking the Rules! THF! FTW!

[nerdychaz]

This post serves as a prequel to my upcoming assassin guide. 40 pages of instant death!

What has the standard been? Strength based, two weapon fighting rogues all swinging khopeshes. Those who go dex based are seen as outsiders from the "L337."

The creativity has been sucked out of the rogue.

What needs to change? Your idea of what a rogue should do.

As of now, rogues MUST have TWF, Power Attack, Improved Crit, Khopeshes, Strength, Dex, Int, Con, Lots of Con! That means everything else suffers. You can't forget about your charisma or wisdom, or those skills suffer! We don't have dump stats, we have burdens!

We end up with high DPS, but can't hit much on epic content. Sure, fully bard buffed, double madstoned, with divine favor clickies etc. etc. etc. we can hit it. But, that is a lot of work for little reward.

We get tons of skill points, but more would be cool, except we cant, we dump statted int for everything else we need!

We need at a minimum, 12 for strength (add tomes), 15 for dex (add tomes), 13 for int (yeah, you could go lower, but it's embarassing), and 14 for con (ADD TOMES!!! MOAR TOMES)!!!!

ZOMG

Okay, then you are left to go on to feats. Everyone must have Toughness, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, IC Slash, WPN Proficiency Khopesh, maybe power attack and once you step foot in an epic dungeon, you can't hit anything! You can't even assassinate because you miss!

So, you can do one of these things well, and the rest you just suck at. You can either assassinate and do traps well, DPS well, or maybe have some skills, or perhaps you die well because you forgot about CON.

Okay, I exaggerate, but I propose a solution.

Well now my friends, it is time to break free from dexterity all together! DEX CAN BE A DUMP STAT!!!

You need to give up having pairs of weapons. Open up your inventory to PHAT LEWT!! MAX INT, STR, and maybe a bit of CON, Nah, MOAR CON!!!

How could you possibly benefit? Well, first off, you take a negative to your BAB due to TWF. Didn't know that? They did it one of the last updates. You see, TWF feats only grant a percentage chance the second strike will hit at all, for that to succeed, the first must hit. Instead you always take a negative to your BAB, unless you take OTWF.

Cite your source NOOB!
http://ddowiki.com/page/Attack_sequence
http://ddowiki.com/page/Two_Weapon_Fighting
http://ddowiki.com/page/Update_5
http://ddowiki.com/page/Oversized_Two_Weapon_Fighting

So, what do you do for weapons? Well, you could be a quarterstassassin! Now make that name work with a halfling and I will LOL. Of course, if you were to do HELF, you could take the fighter dilly for proficiency to everything!

And for god's sake DO NOT multiclass assassin! You fool!

What are the benefits of this? High int = high assassinate, trap skill, more skills, etc.

Feats? What about feats? What, you don't know what to take? DO NOT TAKE the THF line! It is unnecessary and draws aggro! Do you want aggro? Not in my DMZ soldier!

What about Cleave? Cleave rocks! Ever proc an a sneak attack vorpal on a cleave? Me either! I'm at level 13 with this one, 5 to go! Then I can do it!

Maybe you don't want cleave? What do you want? I don't care!

Hahaha, silly noob, your evasion will suck. Haha! Ignorant elitist! I have the feat insightful reflexes! I really am smart! So says my 32 INT!

I will edit this post later with some more coherent information you can make use of. In the mean time, I think I need to let the caffeine wear off.......

UPDATE: response build

[RJBsComputer]

Hmmmmm.....Is That a Gauntlet at my feet? Never thought about going that way.......must think...OUCH....that hurts.....OUCH......

[dkyle]

How could you possibly benefit? Well, first off, you take a negative to your BAB due to TWF. Didn't know that? They did it one of the last updates. You see, TWF feats only grant a percentage chance the second strike will hit at all, for that to succeed, the first must hit. Instead you always take a negative to your BAB, unless you take OTWF.

The main hand attack does not need to hit to trigger an off hand attack. With GTWF, 80% of all main hand swings carry an off-hand attack as well.


A quarterstaff Acrobat is a flavor build.

A quarterstaff Assassin is just plain gimped. It makes no sense mechanically or thematically.

Seriously. You're giving up 80% sneak attack for +2 to hit?

And under 13 INT isn't "embarrassing". A Rogue could go 6 INT, and still no-fail epic traps.

[Acers13]

And under 13 INT isn't "embarrassing". A Rogue could go 6 INT, and still no-fail epic traps.

PLease tell me how a rogue can go 6 INT and not fail Epic Traps, i am serious i want to know 0.0.

And yes, sry man. A THF Rogue Assassin is gimped, trust me i have tried. D:

And the ratio of a TWF rogue is to a THF rogue on a 50% fort mob using a boss beater is, based on Aaxeyu and A_O's spreadsheet, 456.84 to 409.99, using a DR-bypassing eSoS.

[nerdychaz]

oh, but the flavor tastes sooooo good.

Don't be scared of change.

Will Two Weapon Fighting do incredible top end game DPS? Yes, with the proper buffs and gear, TWF can easily beat out any other build. My upcoming guide will focus 90% on TWF.

Is DPS the only way to measure a build? No.

Honestly, yes, the quarterstaff assassin is gimped, but only by damage type and a low crit range. It is the low cost alternative to taking weapon proficiencies for greatsword or falchion. Scrolling Master's touch every other minute does not appeal to me. Is that even available in scrolls?

My Rogue Mantras
I can only DPS as long as I can hit.
My current Hit Points have a direct causal relationship with my Reflex Save.
Why DPS when it's dead?
Dex builds are nice, but they are too nice to constructs and undead.
Skills are awesome! MOAR Skills!

Benefits of the THF Assassin
Imagine walking into a quest with an epic SOS, as a halfling!
Increased assassinate. 41-43 achievable depending on race, up to 45 if you go overboard, good luck hitting (currently thinking of how to make this viable Mwuahaha)
You do not sacrifice BAB for extra attacks
Power Attack will do even more damage
Lack the need for any dexterity item
High Base Damage makes for useful attacks against constructs and other non-crittables.

The story: This all started as I was planning my TR from your typical TWF khopesh assassin (still haven't TR'd). I rerolled an alt to test the theory. It works. Cleave is not necessary, but very fun. Adds great burst DPS with the new update. The point was to increase my assassinate check beyond forty without needing much new gear while increasing my base damage and attack. I wanted to be able to hit epic bosses without being madstoned. I like to throw a rez scroll when necessary. I was honestly hoping to reduce my DPS, as those in my dedicated group were getting angry that I had most of the kills. It backfired in such a beautiful way. Try explaining to your friends "honestly, I thought the DPS would be lower!"

If you want top DPS, this is not the way to go. But, it is not far off. If you want more skills, a high assassinate, a high attack, more open item slots, more feats, more creativity to your build, this is how to do it. If you want to stay on the same cookie cutter builds, feel free. It works, it's proven, it's safe, everyone is doing it.

Perhaps later I will post some builds to show just how versatile the theory is.



REPLIES

Where did I say this was TOP DPS? I don't recall saying that.

Yes, a Half-orc assassin of 6 INT can fully do traps with max ranks, dumping spot, a few enhancement points, plenty of gear, and a bit of greensteel or DT armor tossed in for Int skills.

You do not lose 80% of sneak attacks. /facepalm TWF attacks are slower, THF is a little faster, the loss is a lot smaller than you think. In fact, with a higher BAB and higher attack, more attacks beat the AC of your target making for higher DPS. I will post some charts later.

[stille_nacht]

PLease tell me how a rogue can go 6 INT and not fail Epic Traps, i am serious i want to know 0.0.

And yes, sry man. A THF Rogue Assassin is gimped, trust me i have tried. D:

And the ratio of a TWF rogue is to a THF rogue on a 50% fort mob using a boss beater is, based on Aaxeyu and A_O's spreadsheet, 456.84 to 409.99, using a DR-bypassing eSoS.

easy, max disable, max search, +15 item, youll be fine.

as for teh dps, yeah... thf is far far behind twf for rogues because of all the SA you lose thf :/.

[SableShadow]

<what is this i don't know what>

easy, max disable, max search, +15 item, youll be fine.

Hmmmmm....been away for a while, haven't tinkered with trap search/dd DCs since I've been back, but I dunno about that.

14 base int, +4 tome, plus drow, plus GH, means searching with a CC spyglass (+2 ex int, +2 luck) in eChains.

My Tharne's don't cut it, so just running +15s seems a bit low, particularly if someone's dumping int on a Horc. Not challenging it can't be done; GS item is +6 to skills all by itself, just pointing out that I'm leary of the blanket statement that 6 base int, +15 item being all that's needed.

I could, of course, simply be wrong and need to pay better attention, but ...

TWF attacks are slower, THF is a little faster, the loss is a lot smaller than you think.

No it isn't...although it is much, much easier to snipe kills with THF.

I will post some charts later.

No you won't, because then you'll be sober.

[Aeolwind]

Why not finesse build and go with Epic Midnight Greeting's? Keep the int cranked, helps assassinates, you'll still hit, have a 15-20 crit range with improved crit on 2d4 dice & don't have to spend a feat. Saves the khopesh feat & finesse feat. On a 36pt build, elf, dump str, 18 dex, 18 int with fighter and monk PLFs, level ups in int, extra 2 from Elf in Dex, plus rogue enh.

Doesn't sound bad.

And to comment on the thf, keep in mind, vorpals do proc on glancing blows.

[SableShadow]

Doesn't sound bad.

Multiple past lives, plus dump str, plus dump the finesse feat, plus ... if it doesn't sound bad to you, ok, but it's giving me a migraine.

[Aeolwind]

Multiple past lives, plus dump str, plus dump the finesse feat, plus ... if it doesn't sound bad to you, ok, but it's giving me a migraine.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Midnight_Greetings

Gives Kukri feat and finesse for free. Probably better as a final build than as a build you plan to TR. At 20 though it would be pretty solid.

[SableShadow]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Midnight_Greetings

Gives Kukri feat and finesse for free. Probably better as a final build than as a build you plan to TR. At 20 though it would be pretty solid.

Is this where I ask "What do you do in situations where this weapon doesn't work well?" and you say "Why, log in a useful character!"

If so, we really have nothing to talk about, do we?

[Illiain]

If so, we really have nothing to talk about, do we?

I like eggs.

[SableShadow]

I like eggs.

I like pie. Why do you hate pie so much?

Seriously, though, there's a huge world of difference between someone who wants to run a character in very specific circumstances (most forum builds are targetted toward end game raids, for example) and someone who's looking for something more general.

Understanding the difference in scope is key in evaluating a build.

[Dawnsfire]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Midnight_Greetings

Gives Kukri feat and finesse for free. Probably better as a final build than as a build you plan to TR. At 20 though it would be pretty solid.

Genasi is promising changes to it too if that helps:

Epic Midnight's Greetings: Dexterity to hit and damage, and the weapon's enhancement bonus will be equal to your Intelligence modifier (min 6, max 10). We'll also add Improved Paralyzing.

And:

Epic Midnight's Greetings: We'll say the higher of strength or dex for to-hit/damage on this one, much as the Epic Elyd Edge will be. You may have seen that I was planning on putting a new Improved Deception with about twice the proc rate of normal Deception on the Phiarlan Spy Dagger. What about applying that here, too, and having this item be the slashing equivalent to the Spy Dagger? I also like the idea of it increasing Assassinate DCs (+2 does seem reasonable), considering it's geared towards Assassins to begin with, so perhaps all those things combined will be enough to make it worth running for.

While this does help the whole max intel... The rest of the OP's idea might not work too well with it

[bigolbear]

to the op.

Ive got a 2 hander str based rogue, and it works rather well so kudos on your post and thinking outside the box.

hes 12 rogue, 6 paly and will be 13 rogue 6 pally and um.. havent decided, probably 1 wiz or fighter, hes a warforge and uses greatswords.

my to hit is excelent for a rogue and i do 100+damage a swing if im getting sneaks which due to diplomacy is most of the time, glancing blows have a chance of procing sneak damage, and cleave as you say is fantastic on this kind of character.

As real benefit my non sneak damage is also prety good, 60+ a swing easily.

I went mechanic for a decent ranged option (not the trap dcs there not a problem) but i can see it working just as well on an assassin build.

Your also right about dumping dex and taking insightful reflexes, no reason it cant work, in my case its unneeded tho because of paly lvls and a high charisma - hes a umd nut.

If and when i get round to TRing him i am seriously considering staying pure rogue, going str based again and 2 handed, and taking insightful reflexes for the evasion rolls.

Of course theres also nothign wrong with a traditional old school finesse 2wf rogue - i mean at d6 sneak damage every 2 lvls + a shed load of bonuses its not like the majority of your top class damage is coming from str now is it - and at those numbers turning off power attack is most likely gona increase damage if you missing on anything bar a 1.

Thug archetype rogues are just the flavour of the month built around having just enough to hit for the content they want to do. its a metagamed build for a powergamer mindset.

[Artos_Fabril]

[...] i do 100+damage a swing if im getting sneaks which due to diplomacy is most of the time, glancing blows have a chance of procing sneak damage, and cleave as you say is fantastic on this kind of character.

Any half-decent rogue will do over 100 damage per hit, assuming sneak attacks. And glancing blows cannot proc sneak attack damage, although cleave can.

[andbr22]

looking for a good weapon. Epic Midnight greetings are good. Rogue who used dualwielding them Outkilled all on epics at least 2 times (while i could outkill his barbarian on my fighter).
You cannot hit on epic (it is not embarasing) turn off power attack, and use light offhand weapon. Most ROG dmg go from sneak attacks dmg (dont forget about subtele backstabbing).

Lot of rogues usess rapiers (unfortunetly piercing weapons become very overestimated due to crit change - so slashing uber ales).
Some take Oversized TWF.
There is great Rogue underestimated feat (hammersting I think it is called -> it works similary to tenden slice used to work before repairs -> it slow attack speed (even purpure named) (but work as active use)).

[Roguewiz]

Any half-decent rogue will do over 100 damage per hit, assuming sneak attacks. And glancing blows cannot proc sneak attack damage, although cleave can.

^ This.

1d6 + 21 (buffs/enhancements ect) + 8d6 = 75 max per hit, not counting crits and procs. Per swing. TWF > THF fora Rogue.

The fundamental problem with THF as a Rogue is Threat. If you were a Rogue/Favored Soul Warforged, you could potentially do adequate enough damage to warrant going that route, but due to splash damage and generally lower hp than other THF characters; you're generallly going to need to hold back or wait for a rez. I've tried the Greatsword/Great Axe route on a Warforged. The DPS was great, up until around level 6 or 7, when things start getting painful.

To end, on a somewhat positive note, seeing a crit with a Great Axe with a sneak attack and procs will make you go "holy H-E-double hockey-sticks"

[Therigar]

A Rogue could go 6 INT, and still no-fail epic traps.

This is a true statement. It is all about the gear and buffs. But, it misses the point.

An assassin can't go 6 INT and still assassinate reliably.

The original post isn't about being a trap monkey. It is about being an assassin.

You're giving up 80% sneak attack for +2 to hit?

It isn't about DPS, it is about assassinate.

And, it might actually be much more than +2 to hit when you've adjusted for STR (or DEX). If a standard build starts with 14 in the key stat and the THF build can manage to start with 18 then the total difference might be +4 to hit.

If that means 95% to-hit on epic vs 75% to-hit then the total damage numbers could begin to add up in favor of the THF build -- especially if you figure ESOS for weapon (or similar).

What I'd like to see is the numbers from OP to help sell his idea. I think it is worth taking a look at.

[Tinco]

The fundamental problem is very easy: Static per-hit damage bonuses such as sneak attack scale with exactly one property - attack speed. TWF has a higher amount of attacks per time frame and thus is preferable to THF. That's even the problem for Acrobats who get the fastest THF attack speed in the game with their sticks.

The pain wrong stuff that has been posted here by some people makes my head ache.