Assassins! Begin Breaking the Rules! THF! FTW!

[nerdychaz]

This post serves as a prequel to my upcoming assassin guide. 40 pages of instant death!

What has the standard been? Strength based, two weapon fighting rogues all swinging khopeshes. Those who go dex based are seen as outsiders from the "L337."

The creativity has been sucked out of the rogue.

What needs to change? Your idea of what a rogue should do.

As of now, rogues MUST have TWF, Power Attack, Improved Crit, Khopeshes, Strength, Dex, Int, Con, Lots of Con! That means everything else suffers. You can't forget about your charisma or wisdom, or those skills suffer! We don't have dump stats, we have burdens!

We end up with high DPS, but can't hit much on epic content. Sure, fully bard buffed, double madstoned, with divine favor clickies etc. etc. etc. we can hit it. But, that is a lot of work for little reward.

We get tons of skill points, but more would be cool, except we cant, we dump statted int for everything else we need!

We need at a minimum, 12 for strength (add tomes), 15 for dex (add tomes), 13 for int (yeah, you could go lower, but it's embarassing), and 14 for con (ADD TOMES!!! MOAR TOMES)!!!!

ZOMG

Okay, then you are left to go on to feats. Everyone must have Toughness, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, IC Slash, WPN Proficiency Khopesh, maybe power attack and once you step foot in an epic dungeon, you can't hit anything! You can't even assassinate because you miss!

So, you can do one of these things well, and the rest you just suck at. You can either assassinate and do traps well, DPS well, or maybe have some skills, or perhaps you die well because you forgot about CON.

Okay, I exaggerate, but I propose a solution.

Well now my friends, it is time to break free from dexterity all together! DEX CAN BE A DUMP STAT!!!

You need to give up having pairs of weapons. Open up your inventory to PHAT LEWT!! MAX INT, STR, and maybe a bit of CON, Nah, MOAR CON!!!

How could you possibly benefit? Well, first off, you take a negative to your BAB due to TWF. Didn't know that? They did it one of the last updates. You see, TWF feats only grant a percentage chance the second strike will hit at all, for that to succeed, the first must hit. Instead you always take a negative to your BAB, unless you take OTWF.

Cite your source NOOB!
http://ddowiki.com/page/Attack_sequence
http://ddowiki.com/page/Two_Weapon_Fighting
http://ddowiki.com/page/Update_5
http://ddowiki.com/page/Oversized_Two_Weapon_Fighting

So, what do you do for weapons? Well, you could be a quarterstassassin! Now make that name work with a halfling and I will LOL. Of course, if you were to do HELF, you could take the fighter dilly for proficiency to everything!

And for god's sake DO NOT multiclass assassin! You fool!

What are the benefits of this? High int = high assassinate, trap skill, more skills, etc.

Feats? What about feats? What, you don't know what to take? DO NOT TAKE the THF line! It is unnecessary and draws aggro! Do you want aggro? Not in my DMZ soldier!

What about Cleave? Cleave rocks! Ever proc an a sneak attack vorpal on a cleave? Me either! I'm at level 13 with this one, 5 to go! Then I can do it!

Maybe you don't want cleave? What do you want? I don't care!

Hahaha, silly noob, your evasion will suck. Haha! Ignorant elitist! I have the feat insightful reflexes! I really am smart! So says my 32 INT!

I will edit this post later with some more coherent information you can make use of. In the mean time, I think I need to let the caffeine wear off.......

UPDATE: response build

[RJBsComputer]

Hmmmmm.....Is That a Gauntlet at my feet? Never thought about going that way.......must think...OUCH....that hurts.....OUCH......

[dkyle]

How could you possibly benefit? Well, first off, you take a negative to your BAB due to TWF. Didn't know that? They did it one of the last updates. You see, TWF feats only grant a percentage chance the second strike will hit at all, for that to succeed, the first must hit. Instead you always take a negative to your BAB, unless you take OTWF.

The main hand attack does not need to hit to trigger an off hand attack. With GTWF, 80% of all main hand swings carry an off-hand attack as well.


A quarterstaff Acrobat is a flavor build.

A quarterstaff Assassin is just plain gimped. It makes no sense mechanically or thematically.

Seriously. You're giving up 80% sneak attack for +2 to hit?

And under 13 INT isn't "embarrassing". A Rogue could go 6 INT, and still no-fail epic traps.

[Acers13]

And under 13 INT isn't "embarrassing". A Rogue could go 6 INT, and still no-fail epic traps.

PLease tell me how a rogue can go 6 INT and not fail Epic Traps, i am serious i want to know 0.0.

And yes, sry man. A THF Rogue Assassin is gimped, trust me i have tried. D:

And the ratio of a TWF rogue is to a THF rogue on a 50% fort mob using a boss beater is, based on Aaxeyu and A_O's spreadsheet, 456.84 to 409.99, using a DR-bypassing eSoS.

[stille_nacht]

PLease tell me how a rogue can go 6 INT and not fail Epic Traps, i am serious i want to know 0.0.

And yes, sry man. A THF Rogue Assassin is gimped, trust me i have tried. D:

And the ratio of a TWF rogue is to a THF rogue on a 50% fort mob using a boss beater is, based on Aaxeyu and A_O's spreadsheet, 456.84 to 409.99, using a DR-bypassing eSoS.

easy, max disable, max search, +15 item, youll be fine.

as for teh dps, yeah... thf is far far behind twf for rogues because of all the SA you lose thf :/.

[Therigar]

A Rogue could go 6 INT, and still no-fail epic traps.

This is a true statement. It is all about the gear and buffs. But, it misses the point.

An assassin can't go 6 INT and still assassinate reliably.

The original post isn't about being a trap monkey. It is about being an assassin.

You're giving up 80% sneak attack for +2 to hit?

It isn't about DPS, it is about assassinate.

And, it might actually be much more than +2 to hit when you've adjusted for STR (or DEX). If a standard build starts with 14 in the key stat and the THF build can manage to start with 18 then the total difference might be +4 to hit.

If that means 95% to-hit on epic vs 75% to-hit then the total damage numbers could begin to add up in favor of the THF build -- especially if you figure ESOS for weapon (or similar).

What I'd like to see is the numbers from OP to help sell his idea. I think it is worth taking a look at.

[CaptainCameo]

The main hand attack does not need to hit to trigger an off hand attack. With GTWF, 80% of all main hand swings carry an off-hand attack as well.


A quarterstaff Acrobat is a flavor build.

A quarterstaff Assassin is just plain gimped. It makes no sense mechanically or thematically.

Seriously. You're giving up 80% sneak attack for +2 to hit?

And under 13 INT isn't "embarrassing". A Rogue could go 6 INT, and still no-fail epic traps.

You missed the point and failed the test. Your -2 INT bonus didn't help.

And sneak attack only works if the enemy isn't looking at you, which in most cases it is because you're causing more pain than everyone else.

[Cardtrick]

And sneak attack only works if the enemy isn't looking at you, which in most cases it is because you're causing more pain than everyone else.

No. A well-played rogue can avoid aggro while still doing more damage than anyone else. You get sneak attacks whenever you don't have aggro. Two or three tiers of Subtle Backstabbing, use of Bluff and/or Dipl, various gear (Tharne's, etc.) all reduce threat and let you sneak attack pretty much at-will against unfortified enemies.

[Chai]

The main hand attack does not need to hit to trigger an off hand attack. With GTWF, 80% of all main hand swings carry an off-hand attack as well.

Ganked, right outa EQ.

A quarterstaff Acrobat is a flavor build.

Its not max DPS to the spreadsheet gamers, so its a flavor build? Theres a PRE centered around it too. I suppose hunter of the dead and Stalwart defenders are flavor builds as well. TWF khopesh is a flavor build in epic wizard king. The horc staff builds rock their face.

And under 13 INT isn't "embarrassing". A Rogue could go 6 INT, and still no-fail epic traps.

We owe this to the "we want a challenge" crowd, who will moan and complain they want a challenge right up to and until they are given one, and the minute their dumped int max str khopesh assassin couldnt hit those traps in epics it was three "ZOMG how much do I have to GIMP my toon to hit epic traps?" threads a week for 8 months straight. The end result of that is that a single celled organism who can sneak attack for 125 points of SA damage per hit can now do epic traps no fail. I disagreed with that decision. Epic is supposed to be tough. In my opinion this means you either build for it or you dont succeed. If that means losing 2 points of str so your rogue only has 54 buffed str instead of 56, in order to build those other stats in, so be it.

[Aeolwind]

Ganked, right outa EQ.

I thought it, but didn't say it

[Razcar]

Epic is supposed to be tough. In my opinion this means you either build for it or you dont succeed. If that means losing 2 points of str so your rogue only has 54 buffed str instead of 56, in order to build those other stats in, so be it.

But that was hardly the case, was it? I understand if you exaggerate for flourish, but this was little too much.

[dkyle]

You missed the point and failed the test. Your -2 INT bonus didn't help.

What point? The OP said less than 13 Int was an embarrassment for Rogue. I assumed that referred to traps (blowing a trap being generally embarrassing), because the alternative was that he was saying any Rogue that can't assassinate is an embarrassment. Which would be a ridiculous thing to say.

And sneak attack only works if the enemy isn't looking at you, which in most cases it is because you're causing more pain than everyone else.

Not if the Rogue is competently built and well geared.

Ever heard of threat reduction?

A Rogue that's in a group and not getting SA is doing it wrong, unless they're in trivial content where it's better to just zerg like Barbarian.

Ganked, right outa EQ.

Good mechanics are good mechanics. A much better system than that absurd attack sequnce based system we used to have. I couldn't care less who did it first.

Its not max DPS to the spreadsheet gamers, so its a flavor build? Theres a PRE centered around it too. I suppose hunter of the dead and Stalwart defenders are flavor builds as well. TWF khopesh is a flavor build in epic wizard king. The horc staff builds rock their face.

All Rogues are flavor builds if all you pay attention to is Wiz King.

Sorry, but being somewhat more mediocre in one endgame quest out of dozens doesn't elevate it above flavor build.

DDO is a vastly varied game. Just about any build can find a place to shine. Doesn't mean all builds are above flavor build status.

[Kinerd]

Its not max DPS to the spreadsheet gamers, so its a flavor build? Theres a PRE centered around it too. I suppose hunter of the dead and Stalwart defenders are flavor builds as well.

Would you argue that Deepwood Snipers are anything but flavor builds?

TWF khopesh is a flavor build in epic wizard king. The horc staff builds rock their face.

Let us consider this mathematically.

TWF Khopesh rogues are perfectly able to use Maces - criticals are largely irrelevant against undead, and they have no khopesh-based enhancements. Our TWF rogue will therefore have two Triple Positive Heavy Maces, and will start with 14 Strength. Triple Positive means Holy, Good Burst, Good Blast, and Greater Disruption, or 2d6 + 1d6 + 6d6 on hit, 3d6 + 3d6 on crit, and 4d6 + 100 or death on vorpal. We will give our Horc staff user 20 starting Strength and +4 damage from enhancements. Each will have 5 level-ups, a +6 item, and a +2 tome.

TWF
main hand
19 * (5.5 + 8 + 30.5) + 1 * 21 + 114
off hand
0.8 * [19 * (5.5 + 4 + 30.5) + 1 * 21 + 114]
total damage
1687

effective swing rate with Haste Boost IV over Haste:
(10 * 102.2 + 18.8 * 133.3) / 30 = 117.6

Damage per Second:
(1687 / 20) * (117.6 / 60) = 165.3

THF
main
19 * (4.5 + 16 + 4 + 30.5) + 2 * 21 + 114
glancing
.75 * .5 * 19 * (4.5 + 16 + 4 + .15 * 30.5)
total damage
1408

effective swing rate with Haste Boost IV over Haste:
(10 * 113.3 + 18.8 * 140.1) / 30 = 125.6

Damage per Second:
(1408 / 20) * (125.6 / 60) = 147.4

.

We can also investigate how much additional damage bonus, Strength bonus, and Power Attack will change each number.

For damage bonus, we have:
TWF
1.8 * (19 / 20) * (117.6 / 60) = 3.35
THF
1.375 * (19 / 20) * (125.6 / 60) = 2.73
Hence, every additional point of damage bonus (Claw set, Prayer, Bard song, etc.) is better for the TWF.

For Strength, we have:
TWF
1.4 * (19 / 20) * (117.6 / 60) = 2.61
THF
1.375 * (19 / 20) * 1.5 * (125.6 / 60) = 4.10
Hence, every additional point of Strength bonus (exceptional, Rage, etc.) is better for the THF.

And for Power Attack, we have:
TWF
1.8 * (19 / 20) * (117.6 / 60) = 3.35
THF
1.375 * (19 / 20) * 2 * (125.6 / 60) = 5.47

So, if we suppose our rogues happen to have an additional 10 damage bonus, 4 Strength bonus, and 5 Power Attack, then the overall change is:

10 * (3.35 - 2.73) + 4 * (2.61 - 4.10) + 5 * (3.35 - 5.47) = -10.36

Which is to say, 10.36 DPS in favor of the THF build. As the TWF had an 18 point lead to start, we would still expect the TWF build to do more DPS.

.

We can also investigate the possibility of miss chance. We know that each miss roll will only be a miss half the time until that miss roll exceeds 6, so let us see if the base THF build described above can catch the TWF build by that point. The critical threat and vorpal portions of the formula remain unchanged, so for each miss roll we are subtracting:

.5 * (5.5 + 8 + 30.5) + .5 * .8 * (5.5 + 4 + 30.5)
= 38 total damage
= (38 / 20) * (117.6 / 60) = 3.72 DPS

Therefore, if the base TWF misses on rolls 2, 3, 4, and 5, they will still do more DPS than the base THF build. For the better-geared builds, the base TWF will do more DPS even if it misses on rolls 2 and 3. It is worth pointing out that the THF enjoys at most a 7 to-hit margin over the TWF, so it will never drastically outpace the TWF build.

.

.

In conclusion, I find your claim questionable. If you have figures to back it up, I would like to see them.

[nerdychaz]

oh, but the flavor tastes sooooo good.

Don't be scared of change.

Will Two Weapon Fighting do incredible top end game DPS? Yes, with the proper buffs and gear, TWF can easily beat out any other build. My upcoming guide will focus 90% on TWF.

Is DPS the only way to measure a build? No.

Honestly, yes, the quarterstaff assassin is gimped, but only by damage type and a low crit range. It is the low cost alternative to taking weapon proficiencies for greatsword or falchion. Scrolling Master's touch every other minute does not appeal to me. Is that even available in scrolls?

My Rogue Mantras
I can only DPS as long as I can hit.
My current Hit Points have a direct causal relationship with my Reflex Save.
Why DPS when it's dead?
Dex builds are nice, but they are too nice to constructs and undead.
Skills are awesome! MOAR Skills!

Benefits of the THF Assassin
Imagine walking into a quest with an epic SOS, as a halfling!
Increased assassinate. 41-43 achievable depending on race, up to 45 if you go overboard, good luck hitting (currently thinking of how to make this viable Mwuahaha)
You do not sacrifice BAB for extra attacks
Power Attack will do even more damage
Lack the need for any dexterity item
High Base Damage makes for useful attacks against constructs and other non-crittables.

The story: This all started as I was planning my TR from your typical TWF khopesh assassin (still haven't TR'd). I rerolled an alt to test the theory. It works. Cleave is not necessary, but very fun. Adds great burst DPS with the new update. The point was to increase my assassinate check beyond forty without needing much new gear while increasing my base damage and attack. I wanted to be able to hit epic bosses without being madstoned. I like to throw a rez scroll when necessary. I was honestly hoping to reduce my DPS, as those in my dedicated group were getting angry that I had most of the kills. It backfired in such a beautiful way. Try explaining to your friends "honestly, I thought the DPS would be lower!"

If you want top DPS, this is not the way to go. But, it is not far off. If you want more skills, a high assassinate, a high attack, more open item slots, more feats, more creativity to your build, this is how to do it. If you want to stay on the same cookie cutter builds, feel free. It works, it's proven, it's safe, everyone is doing it.

Perhaps later I will post some builds to show just how versatile the theory is.



REPLIES

Where did I say this was TOP DPS? I don't recall saying that.

Yes, a Half-orc assassin of 6 INT can fully do traps with max ranks, dumping spot, a few enhancement points, plenty of gear, and a bit of greensteel or DT armor tossed in for Int skills.

You do not lose 80% of sneak attacks. /facepalm TWF attacks are slower, THF is a little faster, the loss is a lot smaller than you think. In fact, with a higher BAB and higher attack, more attacks beat the AC of your target making for higher DPS. I will post some charts later.

[Kinerd]

And, it might actually be much more than +2 to hit when you've adjusted for STR (or DEX). If a standard build starts with 14 in the key stat and the THF build can manage to start with 18 then the total difference might be +4 to hit.

If that means 95% to-hit on epic vs 75% to-hit then the total damage numbers could begin to add up in favor of the THF build -- especially if you figure ESOS for weapon (or similar).

It is important to remember that the 3rd and 4th animations are at +5 and +10 to hit. As such, 4 lower to-hit means 95% vs. 85%. Additionally, the attack rolls lost are necessarily the low end (which is to say not criticals), so the actual DPS loss is even less. A Seeker item avoids losses due to critical confirmation.

In fact, I would say the "best" builds for rogues right now are pure 20 TWF strength-based rogues, 13 rogue THF acrobat builds with some monk and/or fighter (these builds give up a lot of sneak attack damage, but make up for it with survivability and significant non-sneaking DPS), or 2 rogue splashes for evasion and skills.

Another good one is 19 rogue 1 monk unarmed TWFers. This is especially relevant in this thread as they have none of the usual to-hit penalty associated with TWF.

[SableShadow]

<what is this i don't know what>

easy, max disable, max search, +15 item, youll be fine.

Hmmmmm....been away for a while, haven't tinkered with trap search/dd DCs since I've been back, but I dunno about that.

14 base int, +4 tome, plus drow, plus GH, means searching with a CC spyglass (+2 ex int, +2 luck) in eChains.

My Tharne's don't cut it, so just running +15s seems a bit low, particularly if someone's dumping int on a Horc. Not challenging it can't be done; GS item is +6 to skills all by itself, just pointing out that I'm leary of the blanket statement that 6 base int, +15 item being all that's needed.

I could, of course, simply be wrong and need to pay better attention, but ...

TWF attacks are slower, THF is a little faster, the loss is a lot smaller than you think.

No it isn't...although it is much, much easier to snipe kills with THF.

I will post some charts later.

No you won't, because then you'll be sober.

[Aeolwind]

Why not finesse build and go with Epic Midnight Greeting's? Keep the int cranked, helps assassinates, you'll still hit, have a 15-20 crit range with improved crit on 2d4 dice & don't have to spend a feat. Saves the khopesh feat & finesse feat. On a 36pt build, elf, dump str, 18 dex, 18 int with fighter and monk PLFs, level ups in int, extra 2 from Elf in Dex, plus rogue enh.

Doesn't sound bad.

And to comment on the thf, keep in mind, vorpals do proc on glancing blows.

[SableShadow]

Doesn't sound bad.

Multiple past lives, plus dump str, plus dump the finesse feat, plus ... if it doesn't sound bad to you, ok, but it's giving me a migraine.

[Aeolwind]

Multiple past lives, plus dump str, plus dump the finesse feat, plus ... if it doesn't sound bad to you, ok, but it's giving me a migraine.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Midnight_Greetings

Gives Kukri feat and finesse for free. Probably better as a final build than as a build you plan to TR. At 20 though it would be pretty solid.

[SableShadow]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Midnight_Greetings

Gives Kukri feat and finesse for free. Probably better as a final build than as a build you plan to TR. At 20 though it would be pretty solid.

Is this where I ask "What do you do in situations where this weapon doesn't work well?" and you say "Why, log in a useful character!"

If so, we really have nothing to talk about, do we?