Assassins! Begin Breaking the Rules! THF! FTW!

[dkyle]

Why is dropping at least one 5000+ HP mob not considered DPS?

Because we don't really care about trash DPS. Casters are better at dealing with trash anyway.

Melee exist primarily to kill bosses. Boss DPS is what really counts.

The only reason we bring 8 Melee in Raids is because they have the best sustained DPS to take down bosses. If it weren't for that, there'd be little reason not to bring 12 casters on every Raid. Maybe one tank to hold aggro on some bosses, but even that's probably not necessary.

[nerdychaz]

Little investment except for the feat. On a rogue, this is a significant investment.I wanted to reiterate how inappropriate that comparison is, and to mention that you didn't address the part where TWF Assassins can have just about as good an Assassinate DC if they feel like it. A 32 point build could easily be 14 / 16 / 14 / 16 / 8 / 8 on a halfling. 2 tome, 6 item -> 37 Assassinate DC.

Your build doesn't just sacrifice a little DPS. With no Haste boost and no THF feats, you're looking at 60% DPS of the maxed TWF.

Will you still be able to complete quests? Of course. Will you have a harder time than an optimal build? Of course. That's what it means to be optimal.

The build opens up more feats by dropping the TWF line of feats and the need to take proficiencies, thus freeing up feats. One feat is a heavy investment on a TWF rogue, not on a THF rogue who does not take the THF feats to avoid extra glancing blows from taking in extra aggro.

How many times must I say, my main, a halfling, strength build, TWF swinging khopeshes has an assassinate of 39? The goal of the build was to break 41. Yes, I might be able to do that as a Drow Dex/piercing based TWF. That was not my goal. personally, i played a piercing build too long and don't want to go back. No! Don't make me go back! haha

Why are we debating the DPS thing? I keep saying that it is not a max DPS concept. I may be plugging haste boost into the build, as it is not done. DPS is not the only way to play anymore, and I think that scares some people.

If DPS were the only way to play, i would stick to WoW and spreadsheets. If DDO remains to keep strategy, team play, smarts, and coordination as the winning method, they have me for life.

[Kinerd]

I have one question. Why is dropping at least one 5000+ HP mob not considered DPS? When playing in Epic on my admittedly gimpy (hence the need for precision to "fix" that) TWF Strength/dex/Int build I have had tons of players be quite impressed. It usually becomes my job to instantly take out any caster I can right away.

Because it's not instant. In the time it takes you to stealth over to the caster, the arcane (or heck, certain divines) could have insta-killed it and CCed the room. In the time it takes your Assassinate to cool down, the same caster could have insta-killed another two. It's also worth pointing out that while you're sneaking around, the TWF rogue is piling up Assassinate III 20s (more important in non-Epic, of course) and regular damage.

Why are we debating the DPS thing? I keep saying that it is not a max DPS concept. I may be plugging haste boost into the build, as it is not done. DPS is not the only way to play anymore, and I think that scares some people.

If DPS were the only way to play, i would stick to WoW and spreadsheets. If DDO remains to keep strategy, team play, smarts, and coordination as the winning method, they have me for life.

It's important to determine whether you're doing 90% DPS or 60% DPS. You bet it would "scare" me to grab a rogue that barely did as much effective DPS as my gimp cleric does with Divine Punishment and Implosion. Why bother with the rogue in that case? Grab another gimp cleric, lose nothing in DPS, gain dramatically in healing ability. Or grab a wizard, gain dramatically in instakills, gain dramatically in CC. Or grab a meathead, gain dramatically in sustainable DPS, gain dramatically in having HP. The way a team works is to have clearly defined roles. The outfielder isn't the pitcher, he's an outfielder. It would be very silly for him to try and catch the throw back from the catcher, and insist on throwing the next pitch. The shortstop shouldn't be running down pop flies in right field, he's the shortstop. The team functions best when everyone knows and performs their role well.

The rogue's offensive strength is sustainable sneak attack damage; hence, people expect that role from the rogue. You can be successful as a rogue without playing to your strength, but why?

[Alektronic]

It's important to determine whether you're doing 90% DPS or 60% DPS. You bet it would "scare" me to grab a rogue that barely did as much effective DPS as my gimp cleric does with Divine Punishment and Implosion. Why bother with the rogue in that case? Grab another gimp cleric, lose nothing in DPS, gain dramatically in healing ability.

I think this is hyperbole. 10d6, 4d6, 3d6, +12 in SA + base damage is far beyond what you can hope any "gimp" can put out. Comparing THF vs TWF assassin, your basically looking at giving up 2X that damage, which is more the issue. Either way, an assassin is going to do some silly dps vs the appropriate enemy. As long as he/she is not missing on a 2 (and not dying), an assassin will put out appreciable dps regardless of weapon style (not sure about silver flame cudgels, but neway...).

The rogue's offensive strength is sustainable sneak attack damage; hence, people expect that role from the rogue. You can be successful as a rogue without playing to your strength, but why?

/signed^2

I kinda view this build as sacrificing a class/PrE strength (SA) to shore up weaknesses (low hp, MAD, dmg vs non crittables...). Similar to splashing 2monk or 2rogue on a pally for evasion, you're giving up a integral class feature for... other things. Imo, OP's build is a reasonable trade-off that's more a question of flavor/preference/gamestyle/philosophy than anything. But he basically said that when he posted the build .

[Kinerd]

I think this is hyperbole. 10d6, 4d6, 3d6, +12 in SA + base damage is far beyond what you can hope any "gimp" can put out. Comparing THF vs TWF assassin, your basically looking at giving up 2X that damage, which is more the issue. Either way, an assassin is going to do some silly dps vs the appropriate enemy. As long as he/she is not missing on a 2 (and not dying), an assassin will put out appreciable dps regardless of weapon style (not sure about silver flame cudgels, but neway...).

Don't get me wrong, a THF Assassin actually fighting is going to put my cleric DPS to shame. I was comparing my cleric to an Int-based THF Assassin with no THF feats, no Haste Boost, and sneaking around for significant periods. Divine Punishment is a DPS easy button.

[bigolbear]

Further info regarding sneak attack on glancing blows,

after reading responces and interest i figured i was probably beign a confused muppet and you guys were right but i figured may as well test it.

ok i ran around in giant hold the other day trying to test this out and see if i could land a screen shot.

The results of my tests were some what confusing.

Its possible ive been mistaking glancing blows for something else but plz note that this character does not have double strike yet so i dont see how it could be that. Im thinking given the proc chance of this hapening its tied into great weapon mastery somehow. taking off all my str gear and offing PA to try and make my test subject live a bit so plz forgive the terible numbers

there are a couple of things i need to establish here, It seems that 'occasionaly' a glancing blow will do full damage + effects (mor often just +effects), and on some attacks you get glancing blows on your primary target (depends on feats and attack chain). it seems that the only time you get sneak attack on a glancing blow is if these conditions are both met and then you only get them on your primary target, never on other targets.

The one thing i can say for SURE after testing is that if glancing blows realy do generate sneak attacks then its so darn rare it can be discounted and trying to get a screenie while hunting for this was a proper ball ache.

I have a screenie of my combat log tho - not sure what it proves if any thing. This was ONE HIT from sneak, that generated a crit on the first set of numbers and directly below that normal full damage + all effects + sneak damage. Strangely they appeared reversed in the combat log.

http://s3.mmoguildsites.com/s3/galle...png?1308269056

In short: yes i think they do but its so darn rare it makes no practical difference and only works on main target.