Putting things up for roll

[CaptainCameo]

Until the loot is listed in your name in the chest it is not yours. Its distribution is bound up by social conventions and norms that vary from person to person. In this case, one social norm (give the player that won the roll the loot) appears to have been trumped by another social norm (dont roll on something that the player base deems you cannot use to sufficient effect).

Now, given that norm 2 is often assumed, people will typically not go into lengths listing out their prejudices about who can and cannot roll for something, its assumed to be common sense. In the rare cases where someone doesnt seem to operate under the acepted common sense, the player base tends to try to evaluate their rationale. Why did the caster roll on those madstone boots? Lets see if they truly understand the implications. They will then either A) agree with that person and give them the loot that they won the roll on or B) argue that the person wasnt acting under common sense and give the item to the next highest winning roll that was applicable. Unfortunately, this is a breach in social norms on both sides, the roller broke the common sense rule and the passer the norm to go by the rolls. At this point, both parties can either hold a grudge because someone broke the social norms, or agree that an unexpected exception came up, but that it was resolved.

I personally think that in this case the passer was justified. While it would be nice for people to always list their loot preferences, it doesnt happen as a given rule and people typically rely on common sense to prevail in looting conventions. When it doesnt, we try to resolve it as equittably as possible, and the passer does have final say in these things.

I'm sorry. There is no afterword in this story.

[joaofalcao]

And here goes my 2 cents.

1 - The greater good. That arcane getting the +4 int tome is the best choice. The best choice for everybody. Tomorrow youre going to play with him, his DCs will work better on epics and your epic experience will be more enjoyable. Even if you dont play with him, your friends will play and will enjoy the +4 int tome better. 2 Extra skill points cannot compete with that. Your best benefit is to pass for an arcane.


2 - The milk was spilt, theres nothing to do other than to farm for more milk. It does not show on your chest, its not yours. I know it sucks. I recently lost a chattering ring on a roll for a barbarian who died and reentered the titan almost making us loose the 12 member who came in after that. I was playing my tank. A lot of good folks were upset, and I was quite frustrated myself, but what can we do? Wasnt on my chest and theres little I can do. All thats left me is to keep farming the titan.

3 - This is a complex game. You ve seen greedy people, and I know they exist and roll on everything, because, on the next 3 years they intend to TR into a class that will use such item.
Yet, that melee rolling on the gracier bracers can benefit from it as well. The divine rolling on the rakhirs ring can also benefit very nicely. It aint a black or white game. If the item would be arcane only, then there would be a "class absolutely required: sorcerer, wizard" in the item. Try to keep on open mind about stuff. Its always harder to keep an open mind if you need that piece of equipament, but, you know....

[Miahoo]

I dont blacklist players. People can learn/improve/change - except a few - and probably lesson learnt here as well. Squelch those people who blind invite you 10 times in a row in Harbor, otherwise just tell them what they are doing wrong.

Haha, Finally something we agree about.

Wait wait.. "- exept a few -", is that few is me?

[Claymorep]

But really, what I'm saying is it would be nice if people who put stuff up for roll would be more clear in who can actually roll for the item BEFORE they put it up for roll. Similarly people who receive an item in an awkward way could think twice before looting it ;-)

It's not a guild question (or so I think), in my guild even squelched that are for error in party have the possibility to roll for an item that have a real use and pugs roll exactly like guildy!

The fact is that with not a lot of intelligence someone should understand when to roll and when not. In my opinion a barbarian rolling for a Int or Cha tome isn't a cleaver idea... Also a wizard can have some use for a Str tome (for encumbrance), but clearly a dps have better use of it.

Moreover You are laughing about a +4 Int tome for a barbarian... What about the guy that putted it for roll? I'm sure He had a better use of it than You but was so kind to think that another have better use of it. Instead to say: "Wonderfull someone putted for roll a +4 tome" You are laughing about You didn't have that near useless (for You) tome...

+1 rep to the guy the putted it on roll
gratz on the guy who winned it
-1 rep for the fighter/barbarian that rolled and -1 for the fact to laughing.

I think to read all the treads as a lot of people here think there is no need to say something that is obvious, but i write anyway. If something btc is putted for roll it's clear that peaple that have a use for it are entitled to roll.

I saw people passing useless things for that alt on guys simple because they rolled and shouting: "I won! Give me! I won!" Those guys ended in quelch list and don't play anymore as noone didn't want them in party anymore. Think about all the situation, probably You'll continue to play

[Braegan]

I think that people aren't really understanding what "up for roll" means. If someone wins said roll, no matter the class, then that means that the person who won, gets it. If someone's excluding others based on class, then they should shove a sharp pointy object up one of their orifices for being discriminatory.

End of story.

And before anyone says anything else



***!!!END OF STORY!!!***

lol

no.

[Abutre]

I was the guy who puted the tome for roll btw

Dear OP. Let me explain somenthing for u. (u droped the group before i tryed.)

1. My guild in rare cases need pugs to fill our raids. When i puted the tome for roll i couldn't imagine a fighter rolling for a +4 int tome. For that reason i didnt especified the classes where allowed to roll.

2. In our guild (and almost everybody in this game) we have a common sense that only player who REALLY get a full bennefit of an iten could roll for it. And im sry when i disagreed with u, but +1 skill (u could read a +2 tome in lvl 7) will not change ur life than will change for the rogue who looted the tome. Could be a wizard, but theres no wiz on pt in that moment.

3. Man this is just a game. The goal (for me at least) is have some ****** fun. try do not get stressed for so foolish thing. Theres a lot of things that i would like to say to u. But i think this is enough. I hope u undestand the reasons for what i did in the future.

Good game for all.

[Claymorep]

I was the guy who puted the tome for roll btw

Dear OP. Let me explain somenthing for u. (u droped the group before i tryed.)

1. My guild in rare cases need pugs to fill our raids. When i puted the tome for roll i couldn't imagine a fighter rolling for a +4 int tome. For that reason i didnt especified the classes where allowed to roll.

2. In our guild (and almost everybody in this game) we have a common sense that only player who REALLY get a full bennefit of an iten could roll for it. And im sry when i disagreed with u, but +1 skill (u could read a +2 tome in lvl 7) will not change ur life than will change for the rogue who looted the tome. Could be a wizard, but theres no wiz on pt in that moment.

3. Man this is just a game. The goal (for me at least) is have some ****** fun. try do not get stressed for so foolish thing. Theres a lot of things that i would like to say to u. But i think this is enough. I hope u undestand the reasons for what i did in the future.

Good game for all.

WELL DONE AND WELL EXPLAINED!

Not surprisingly a player from Epicos de Eberron, one the many good guilds of this server.

[Yalina]

Haha, Finally something we agree about.

Wait wait.. "- exept a few -", is that few is me?

Nah, messing with me (or trying to do that) doesn't equal being terrible (not noob or undergeared).

[TheWalruss]

Wow. Ok, admitted I haven't read the whole post. Didn't count on getting this many replies. But to clarify the missing point most people criticize, I rolled for the tome for UMD. I didn't know it would be that much of a deal for a rogue. They get 2 skills, I get 2 skills. If it's a trap master rogue, surely he/she would have his trapping skills maxed anyway. So whether the rogue gets 10 skill points or 12 skill points, I don't see the big thing. Of course the rogue would get +1 int modifier to main skills. Still, if the tome would mean I could use my +4 charisma tome (which I looted myself) along with the +4 int tome to get some 20odd UMD, that would make me happy. With items and buffs I would be able to reach a point where I could scroll Gh, Blur and stuff like that. For a Barb that's about as useful as the +1 modifier to rogue skills - unless that +1 is what cuts it for that one chest in EVoN5. Imagine 1100hp with the ability to raise.

Anyways, thank you for all your comments and questions. It has helped me learn a lot about different views and utilities for the classes.

/Tusk

[TheWalruss]

Ok. Now I have read the whole post and checked my inbox. Sigh, took a while. But I can see there are a few more things I need to address.

1) The title of the post was: "Putting things up for roll" and the purpose was to learn more about what people think about putting stuff up for roll. As some of the most knowledgeable players on Cannith might know, several blows have struck AoD which has more or less sent us back to the stone ages in terms of progress. So it was a shock to me to experience pug raids again. Imagine it was you. You've been firmly couched in a perfect community for several months and suddenly you are compelled to the peripheral role of an acceptable outsider. A transition from: "Hey Tusk man, good to see you", to: "sry, need heals", and that's on a good day ;-D.

2) The point I was looking for was some words on the "your loot is your loot" vs. "putting up for roll", how that worked in the eyes of the prominent guilds on Cannith, moreover how that works in pugs. I now know that anything can happen until the item is finally handed over. The reason why I saw the necessity to 'cry' about this is that I have played almost any class myself and I know from experience that it is not always easy to stick to a set of rules, e.g. I regret having given a SoS up for roll on my Wizard because I could now have used it, in fact I had to craft a GS GSword to solo stuff in a super efficient way. So my experience is you can't rely on assumptions when you want to hand out loot. The most crazy stories can appear to be true. At the same time you also want to make sure the best possible person + avatar gets the super rare items.

Thank you to the guilds and individuals who have helped me clarify what the 'conventions' are. Last time I was reminded was in an Abbot raid about a year ago, where Celduin was so kind to brief me after the raid. But as you know, knowledge is tacit and easily forgotten.

Thank you to the Italian community on Cannith (Guardiani, Epicos, Ordo and others) for accepting me as a pug. I understand the jokes you made last night where I still hadn't read all the replies to this post. I hope you know your tolerance and support is greatly appreciated.

Alright, that's it from me guys. This almost sounds like Eurovision now :-)

[Sjiggie]

Wow. Ok, admitted I haven't read the whole post. Didn't count on getting this many replies. But to clarify the missing point most people criticize, I rolled for the tome for UMD. I didn't know it would be that much of a deal for a rogue. They get 2 skills, I get 2 skills. If it's a trap master rogue, surely he/she would have his trapping skills maxed anyway. So whether the rogue gets 10 skill points or 12 skill points, I don't see the big thing. Of course the rogue would get +1 int modifier to main skills. Still, if the tome would mean I could use my +4 charisma tome (which I looted myself) along with the +4 int tome to get some 20odd UMD, that would make me happy. With items and buffs I would be able to reach a point where I could scroll Gh, Blur and stuff like that. For a Barb that's about as useful as the +1 modifier to rogue skills - unless that +1 is what cuts it for that one chest in EVoN5. Imagine 1100hp with the ability to raise.

Anyways, thank you for all your comments and questions. It has helped me learn a lot about different views and utilities for the classes.

/Tusk

Can you explain me how you will get full umd ranks with a +4 int tome. The tome in minlvl 15 so you get an extra skill point from 16 to 20 which are 5 points. Even if you lesser the tome is applied in steps so at lvl 3 you get the benefit of a +1 tome at 7 of a +2 and so on.

Looting a +4 int tome for skills is just not worth it to what other classes can do with it as others have explained already period.

[Blackmoors]

Well, I understand the OP complaining on winning a roll for something and not looting it but I cant be on his side on this issue really. The fact that you rolled for such a rare item as a +4 INT Tome (having in mind - you said it yourself - your use of the Tome is marginal to say the least) and come to the forum complain that pugs arent nice, says a lot man. You should never had rolled for it in the first place, your roll is the reason seldom loot is putted up for roll in a pug. Lets face it, you were greedy, you thought "why not roll for a free tome even thou I dont much to gain if I win" - and you did that with no regard or consideration for the others that could actually benefit a lot by using it! Thats just wrong from your part and dont expect much compliments on your attitude on this forum...

[Claymorep]

2) The point I was looking for was some words on the "your loot is your loot" vs. "putting up for roll",

I think that at least on Cannith we reached a very nice level of loot main rule: Your loot is YOUR loot and can take it for You even if You have a really marginal addon (today a cleric healbot looted a pair of Tharne googles telling: I need them for true seeing. Not of the same opinion, but it was his loot, so noone have to cry about it), but if you don't need all the party is enlisted to roll, clearly considering those that receive some real use. Moreover for a bta item everybody normally rolls for the class he is playing.

Only a guild continue to ask for pugs and they pass items in chest between them and their bot. Fortunately I know this and don't join their party when I recognize them as a lot of others top guilds members.

Thank you to the Italian community on Cannith (Guardiani, Epicos, Ordo and others) ...
Alright, that's it from me guys. This almost sounds like Eurovision now :-)

Epicos de Eberron is not an Italian guild and unless some earthquake changed world geography is not european too.

[fluffybunnywilson]

Did an epic Demon Queen raid tonight where I won the roll for a +4 int tome. I was playing my warrior that's going to be TRed into a pure barbarian very soon.

When I won the roll, the person who put it up for roll decided that I couldn't get the tome because people who rolled lower rolls were more qualified because of their class.

The person who got the tome looted it of course. No second thoughts there, hehe.

But really, what I'm saying is it would be nice if people who put stuff up for roll would be more clear in who can actually roll for the item BEFORE they put it up for roll. Similarly people who receive an item in an awkward way could think twice before looting it ;-)

Anyway, just wanted to make this something people could think about since this 'trade' happened between two prominent guilds on Cannith. I felt mildly neglected in that trade, tbh.

If anyone doesn't believe it send me a tell and I'll share the video.

If I had a +4 Int tome that I wanted to put up for /roll and a Fighter who was going to TR to Barbarian /rolled on it, I'd assume that they were joking and ignore the roll.

If they told me that they were serious about the roll, I'd assume that they were joking about being serious and I'd ignore the roll.

If they told me that they were serious about being serious, I'd /squelch them.

[Chantelune]

Epicos de Eberron is not an Italian guild and unless some earthquake changed world geography is not european too.

lol.

[Hulligan]

I totally agree with the decision : loots such as a +4 INT tome may not be passed to a fighter. Simple as that.
Looted one myself with my cleric in evon6 in a guild run. Only the casters were rolling and I can assure you it passed to the right person.

And as an evidence what great difference a +4 INT tome makes for a wizard check out yourself:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...ght=deeps+epic

You would hardly do that with a no-matter-how-many-times-TR-ed barb with +4 tomes on all stats.

[lhidda]

If I had a +4 Int tome that I wanted to put up for /roll and a Fighter who was going to TR to Barbarian /rolled on it, I'd assume that they were joking and ignore the roll.

If they told me that they were serious about the roll, I'd assume that they were joking about being serious and I'd ignore the roll.

If they told me that they were serious about being serious, I'd /squelch them.

If you give something for roll, and even +4 tomes, give the item to the person who won the roll.

If you just like casters and rogues to roll for the tome, type something like "casters and rogues roll d100 for +4 tome". If you dont specify, everyone can roll for the item.

If you dont specify the rulez before rolling and dont pass item to person who won, you have to live with the consequences (blacklist, squelch, agressive behaviour of people you ripped off).

Let people decide themselve if they need a item or not.

[Iwinbyrollup]

If you give something for roll, and even +4 tomes, give the item to the person who won the roll. Easy as it is.

If you just like casters and rogues to roll for the tome, type something like "casters and rogues roll d100 for +4 tome". Easy as it is.

If you dont specify the rulez before rolling you have to live with the consequences (blacklist, squelch, agressive behaviour of people you ripped off). Easy as it is.

While you seem to think it's pretty easy, from reading this thread I'd say that it isn't. Heck, most of the blacklist/squelch/aggressive behavior stuff has been aimed at the person who rolled, NOT the person who chose not to pass the loot to the roller.

So yeah, not quite as easy as you suggest.

I think it's probably better to be upfront with rules, but failing to state rules doesn't negate your ability to state them after calling for a roll when people do unexpected things. If I put a SoS up for roll, someone won and before I passed it, they made a comment saying how they loved having more loot to vendor, I'd probably ignore their roll. If anyone got blacklisted from such an event, it would probably be the person who intended to vendor the item, not me.

[lhidda]

I totally agree with the decision : loots such as a +4 INT tome may not be passed to a fighter.

No. Reason: see my post above.

[lhidda]

While you seem to think it's pretty easy, from reading this thread I'd say that it isn't. Heck, most of the blacklist/squelch/aggressive behavior stuff has been aimed at the person who rolled, NOT the person who chose not to pass the loot to the roller.

So yeah, not quite as easy as you suggest.

I think it's probably better to be upfront with rules, but failing to state rules doesn't negate your ability to state them after calling for a roll when people do unexpected things. If I put a SoS up for roll, someone won and before I passed it, they made a comment saying how they loved having more loot to vendor, I'd probably ignore their roll. If anyone got blacklisted from such an event, it would probably be the person who intended to vendor the item, not me.

Let people decide themselve if they need a item or not.

Specify the rules before rolling or live with the outcome. If you dont specify, all people are eligible for that roll. Dont modify the rulez after rolling if u dislike the outcome, that is UNFAIR!