Let Sleeping Dust Lie

[varusso]

But, and I cannot emphasise this enough, you are not everybody.

You find it frustrating; others do not.
You do not regard it as a challenge; others do.
You think optionals are identical to a fail condition; others do not.

Stop regarding your own subjective perception and perspective as objective fact, and take on board what other people are telling you without dismissing their experiences as inferior to your own.

I never once said I was everyone, nor even that was representative of a majority (or minority for that matter). You make the mistake that just because a handful of people in a forum thread say they like something (or dislike something) that it is in ANY way representative of the actual playerbase in-game.

It is a FACT that only a fraction of the playerbase even comes to the forums, and a FACT that an even smaller portion ever actually post. This is a very miniscule and inaccurate sample-size of the overall populace. It is also undeniable that a significant portion of people who would WANT to support a game change such as this are reluctant to post, because they immediately get swarmed by the overly-vocal posters who like to scream EASY BUTTON and NOOB and all the other derogatory comments that amount to 'if you arent as good at this game as me, then the problem is you SUCK,not the game'. We all KNOW this to be true, just by looking at any and every post where someone proposes even the simplest change. My god, I remember a relatively recent thread about improving the map functionality and THAT was swarmed by those types of people.

Dont presume that just because a vocal minority manages to shout down the folks willing to express their opinions, that those opinions arent valid, or shared by a significantly larger portion of the playerbase than you think. Whether or not the opinions are ones YOU personally share.

At the end of the day, I always support more player choices, even if I dont share the same position as the person advocating it. My OP proposal allows for more player choice. You can customize your own 'challenge'. As currently implemented, only ONE type of player gets to experience what they want in this quest, and there are MANY more types of players out there than just that one type. All I want is to allow more players to enjoy this quest, by changing a mechanic that many DO NOT like.

[Schmoe]

You should practice reading comprehension. I said MOST, not ALL. I have also said multiple times *I* do not find this quest HARD in any way. I can solo it whenever I choose for the flag/pie/ings. What I DONT LIKE is the ease of an auto-fail and wasted time in a random PUG. That is not remotely the same thing.

You would still have your challenge if you decided to go for the optionals.

Not true. As you've pointed out yourself, there is a difference between a punitive penalty for a mistake, and a reward for going "above and beyond." I happen to like unforgiving challenges. You apparently do not. I would prefer to see some parts of the game cater to my enjoyment. You apparently would not. Seems pretty simple to me.

Reading comprehension, ftw.

[ceiswyn]

Dont presume that just because a vocal minority manages to shout down the folks willing to express their opinions, that those opinions arent valid, or shared by a significantly larger portion of the playerbase than you think. Whether or not the opinions are ones YOU personally share.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I'm glad that this is something you are willing to take on board and consider.

As currently implemented, only ONE type of player gets to experience what they want in this quest, and there are MANY more types of players out there than just that one type.

There are indeed; and it is impossible and impractical for any one quest to cater to all of them. This is why I am glad that DDO provides a large variety of quests with different mechanics; don't-kill-the-friendlies quests, puzzle quests, jumping quests, and of course the ones with the majority appeal; run-in-and-kill-them-all quests.

Let's keep it that way.

(And I think we're now going in circles, so I'm calling time on this one; I'm done. And I think everyone's had a chance to make their opinion known, so how about we let the thread die a dignified death?)

[Thrudh]

All I want is to allow more players to enjoy this quest, by changing a mechanic that many DO NOT like.

How is this different from making the Pit completable by skipping the furnance rooms (making them "optional" instead)? Some people hate puzzles too. Maybe the puzzles in the Pit (heck, ALL quests!) should be "optional" too?

[Kushiel]

1) The quest is (has been, until more recent content additions) sitting in an area of the quests for XP where there is limited choice for where to harvest XP. It has been a rather barren landscape for quests - that general area - but that is changing. Slowly.

2) It is part of a chains RAID flagging mechanism. Required for access to more (for what at the time of creation) was limited content. Cap content. End-game content.

In comparisson, the following "Protect-The-NPC" quests (some that have an autofail) fall in Content Rich landscape - far more choices exist for skipping that/those quests and not feeling the lack of XP roll in to advance with:

Level 1 Base Quests:
Redemption - Autofail on NPC death
The Cannith Crystal - Autofail on crystal death
Stealthy Reposession - Autofail on death of too many Prophets

Level 2 Base Quests:
Protect Baudry's Interests - Autofail on box death
Arachnophobia -Autofail on too many sarcophogi breaks (solo only)

Level 3 Base Quests:
Where There's Smoke - Autofail on not putting out the fire [Kinda unsure about this one, I think it may have happened onceand I've been really quick to always get to the valve since]
WW Chapter x - autofail on NPC death
Home Sweet Sewer - autofail on death of 1 of 5 npc; level 3 base (solo only)
The Captives - autofail on death of main npc? [Unsure, I never release the cages until end]

Level 4 through 5 Base Quests:
Stand Your Ground - little fail on NPC brothers death, autofail on main NPC death
The Bookbinder Rescue - Autofail on death of 1 of 5 (?) npc
Guard Duty - autofail on death of too many sailors
A Small Problem - autofail on death of Brawnpits

Level 6 through 10 Base Quests:
Gladewatch Outpost Defense - autofail on death of NPC
The Rescue - autofail on death of NPC (Threnal walk dwarf to top)
Faithful Departed - autofail on death of too many Venerable
Escort The Expedition - autofail on NPC death (Threnal get 3 npc to library door)
The Last Stand - autofail on not having 1 villager live, autofail on main NPC death
Slavers of the Shrieking Mines - autofail on too many monkey deaths
Hold for Reinforcments - autofail on NPC (Coyle) death

Level 11 through 14 Base Quests:
From Beyond the Grave - autofail on death of gate
Desert Caravan - autofail on all wagon deaths (?)
The Cursed Crypt - autofail on too many Silver Flame deaths
Assault on Summerfield - little fail (or auto?) on death of captain [Unsure, only done a few times]
*Madstone Crater - Protecting Giant NPC's resets a timer when their health falls too low (?)

Level 16 through 18 Base Quests:
Let Sleeping Dust Lie - autfail on 5 spider deaths
Prey on the Hunter - autofail on death of dragon
The Shipwrecked Spy - autofail on death of captain(?)

There maybe more after this, but for this life this is where my compendium stops and I am not greatly familiar with whatever may be higher. I may even be wrong on a few of these as they are not ones I run often.

Just entered this - it may be ugly in formatting. After seeing I may spend some time later to try to clean it up; but for now I want to kill foes and take their stuff.

One thing that maybe sort of becomes a little more clear - there are several quests where Autofails are possible. There is a wider assortment where this general mechanic is in use than maybe stays in the mind... because much of the lower content is bypassed by the xp/min folks? Because the lower quests are generally more plentiful? Because the lower quests are generally less resource/time investments?

[Uska]

just did the quest the other day this fire savant was off on his own and suddenly spiders started dying and the rest of us are what the hell the guy off on his own is I am not doing it I dont know how they are dying finally we find him and the moron has fireshield on well he lets die it off and we manage to finish with 2 spiders left

I would think someone would know how fireshield works by level 13 or so


I cant agree to changing this though people need to learn to manage things and not killing things is kind of a cool thing

[varusso]

How is this different from making the Pit completable by skipping the furnance rooms (making them "optional" instead)? Some people hate puzzles too. Maybe the puzzles in the Pit (heck, ALL quests!) should be "optional" too?

I am not preaching about the ugliness that is the pit. My first few experiences in there were with zerging groups that knew it and would not help anyone who did not. It was a HORRIBLE experience, and I washed my hands of it. I dont even know if there IS an auto-fail mechanic in pit, because I simply do not run that quest even for favor now; my game experience in there was THAT bad. Someday, I will get around to learning it and running it for XP. Meanwhile, there are plenty of other quests at that level for me to do. However, I am talking about a different quest. If someone else wants to champion pit, they are welcome to do so in another thread. I am talking SPECIFICALLY about an auto-fail mechanic in Dust.

And yes, ALOT of players hate puzzles. That is another ball of wax entirely, since the majority of players use solvers anyway, thereby trivializing the effectiveness of most puzzles after the first few runs. Devs have specifically stated they are looking at puzzles, BTW, and are looking at moving most puzzles into an optional, so that people who HATE puzzles arent forced into them just to complete the quest, but instead putting them into optionals, with enough incentive to still make them worthwhile, but not mandatory. The posts also included hints that they were considering retrofitting some puzzle quests. And the dev also acknowledged the fact that many players use solvers, thereby rendering the puzzles inert as a challenge, and only really effectively being a source of annoyance for those who DONT like them, and flavor for those who do.

That is, of course a topic for another thread as well.

[Chai]

I never once said I was everyone, nor even that was representative of a majority (or minority for that matter). You make the mistake that just because a handful of people in a forum thread say they like something (or dislike something) that it is in ANY way representative of the actual playerbase in-game.

Actually you did say **most people** dont like the mechanic. Vocal minority? Who else complains that Sleeping Dust is too hard in a PUG?

Dont presume that just because a vocal minority manages to shout down the folks willing to express their opinions, that those opinions arent valid, or shared by a significantly larger portion of the playerbase than you think. Whether or not the opinions are ones YOU personally share.

I see where this is going. You make references to people who dont agree with your suggestion as being the vocal minority who is just there to shout people down, but every attempted rebuke you try to make when you disagree, you call the other opinion weak sauce, or tell them they didnt read the thread, or dont get the point. At this point I feel you need to take your own advice reciprocate any respect you expect others to give you.

The presumption happening here is yours, as you slap specific labels on those who are disagreeing here. This is why we cant have nice things on the forums. Theres too many arguements that boil down to "you disagree with me, therefore you obviously dont know anything about (fill in the name of topic here), havent read the thread, etc" - this assertation simply isnt true.

Disagreement =/= lack of knowledge or uninformed.

Anyway Ive said what I needed to say here. This quest doesnt need to get any easier. Its been out ~3 years now, and I do not see any large number of players complaining about the quest mechanic, or failing the quest in PUGs.

[easyaction]

I really don't feel like quoting anything or even reading much of what was posted past page 2 of this thread (so if someone suggested this already, more power to you) so here goes: In reference to the change of incentive in XP for completing the quest without killing spiders...that is a stupid idea (no time to mince words). most people running it aren't running it for XP, they're running it for their pie and their funk. Give them the XP, or half the XP, let them kill spiders, whatever. Just dont let them get a shard or ingredients without trying for it. The juice has to be worth the pull, and XP?!?! an XP penalty/bonus (half empty/full) for a REAL completion is meaningless if a majority people running it don't need XP, they just want their GS ingredients. An XP change would just allow for easy funk farming.

[varusso]

snip

Back up. There is a little tale about a pot and kettle you should listen to sometime. Disagreeing with someone and refuting their points is NOT the same as ignoring them. I could just as easily make the same accusations about you (and some others in this thread).

Now lets do a little hypothetical here: The folks who say they like the 5-spider auto-fail mechanic, because of the extra "challenge' it presents -- how many of you do the optional dont kill ANY spiders for the extra chest? My guess would be very very few -- not because it is an optional (although that obviously factors into it) but because it is a huge PITA, and largely not worth the effort. If you actually wanted a CHALLENGE that is based on not killing spiders, you would always do this optional. After all, its basically the same thing, only more of it. When you kill the ogre sin a group of spiders, the linked spiders all de-aggro, just like in the auto-fail portion. So the mechanic is exactly the same, yet you CHOOSE not to do it, because it is a huge PITA. Now imagine if that were part of the MANDATORY quest goal -- dont kill any spiders, period. Obviously, Turbine was smart about this and realized the majority of players would HATE this quest, so the compromised by setting that as an optional and the 5-spider as a mandatory.

I can only think of one person I have ever met who actually did the optional, and he was soloing it, with me piking in front for the flag. He was significantly underwhelmed by the reward for it. I dont even remember now if you can get an extra ing out of that chest. And that only demonstrates that players DONT like the mechanic itself, hence why pretty much everyone does it the way we do now -- zerg part one and tip-toe through part 2. If folks actually LIKED the mechanic, and the reward were actually worth it, they would always do this optional. Why dont they (aside from not liking it)? Cos the reward sucks. It just isnt enough of an incentive. So remove THAT optional, replace it with 'dont kill any spiders period -- or dont kill 5', toss a significant chunk of the quest XP in it (while reducing the main XP) and put a worthwhile chest there -- namely the ings chest. And remove the auto-fail. Now THAT would be a challenge for those that see this as a challenge, and it would be an incentive to experience the unique quest mechanic, while earning extra goodies.

For those that are just trying to get the flag and pie...so what? They arent interested in doing the PITA spider thing for time number 273. They have already 'beaten' this quest. Repeatedly. Its not a challenge or a thrill, its just an ends to a means. So they can zerg their thing, and those who 'like' doing it the 'hard' way can still do so. Again, optionals are SUPPOSED to be an extra challenge for reward quest customization.

Permadeath guilds deal with self-imposed restrictions and limitations and 'fails' on a daily basis. Honestly, do you think that a game mechanic that mandates you fail vs a player-choice mechanic that says you failed is really different, when the fail 'trigger' is exactly the same? If you WANT to fail because you didnt save the spiders, you can. Some folks play with the idea that if they dont do ALL of the optionals and get ALL of the bonuses, they didnt complete the quest properly. Its more a matter of perspective than anything. If you view not killing the spiders as a challenge, then you can STILL have that challenge by not killing them. If you DO kill them, then you can choose to restart or not. Removing the mandatory fail does not change that unless YOU decide to go on. In which case, its obvious that -- regardless of what you THOUGH was the case -- completing the quest was more important to you than the challenge of doing so. Either way you have a CHOICE.

[Kushiel]

In case it was just too ugly a block of text to decipher, or if it fell into the most rapid series of replies and was just plain lost, post #125 above (unless the forums goes and renumbers things oddly on a whim) will show a list of quests.

These are, more-or-less, "Protect-The-NPC" type quests that copy (or share some attributes) with Dust. I think. There are probably valid arguments some of you would have for why one or some or all differ... but, well, Frell... it's another piece of this to look at in the overall discussion.

It's still not very pretty, but that's as good as I'm going to take time to make it. ;-}

--
And for amusements sake, anyone so inclined, pick from those and tell us all which ones you routinely run for *fun* hehe hehe hehe
--

[agent00skid]

Personally I dislike CC a lot more than Dust, and Rainbow is also further down there. Heck, even all the light damage in Running I find more annoying.

I PuG it some times, the needed times for flag and ingreds. Failed once on a whipe, but not from killing spiders. Having people taking a bit of care makes that quest interesting, and 5 spider fail is quite generous, especially as it doesn't start before taking the first journal.

And your point that there is a minority in here arguing for the mechanics survival is true, but I only also see a minority arguing for it's removal. Unless you show that many people feel like you, it is a bit weak to attack the lack of supporters.

[varusso]

Personally I dislike CC a lot more than Dust, and Rainbow is also further down there. Heck, even all the light damage in Running I find more annoying.

I PuG it some times, the needed times for flag and ingreds. Failed once on a whipe, but not from killing spiders. Having people taking a bit of care makes that quest interesting, and 5 spider fail is quite generous, especially as it doesn't start before taking the first journal.

And your point that there is a minority in here arguing for the mechanics survival is true, but I only also see a minority arguing for it's removal. Unless you show that many people feel like you, it is a bit weak to attack the lack of supporters.

I have actually pointed out the lack of supporters on BOTH sides, for and against changing the mechanic. Specifically because EVERYONE (including myself) is in the minority, and none of us can accurately represent the actual playerbase. The folks who participate in forum discussions (regardless of their relative stance) tend to be in the vocal minority who feel strongly enough about an issue or point to actually take time to discuss/debate/argue about it. The rest of the playerbase generally falls under the umbrella of "I dont care enough to argue about it, just want to play. If I dont like something bad enough, I will just quit." By that fact alone, we do not share the same opinions and goals as the rest of the playerbase and therefor cannot be seen as accurate representations. All we can do is offer anecdotal evidence, based on our experiences and interactions with other players in-game.

[wootvenu]

we were 4/5 spiders count b4 boss room. we completed succesfully how? We had a intimi tank who intimidated the spiders all the way to the door and rest killled the boss asap.

p.s. nvr thought this before why the name let the sleeping dust lie..

[Uska]

Back up. There is a little tale about a pot and kettle you should listen to sometime. Disagreeing with someone and refuting their points is NOT the same as ignoring them. I could just as easily make the same accusations about you (and some others in this thread).

Now lets do a little hypothetical here: The folks who say they like the 5-spider auto-fail mechanic, because of the extra "challenge' it presents -- how many of you do the optional dont kill ANY spiders for the extra chest? My guess would be very very few -- not because it is an optional (although that obviously factors into it) but because it is a huge PITA, and largely not worth the effort. If you actually wanted a CHALLENGE that is based on not killing spiders, you would always do this optional. After all, its basically the same thing, only more of it. When you kill the ogre sin a group of spiders, the linked spiders all de-aggro, just like in the auto-fail portion. So the mechanic is exactly the same, yet you CHOOSE not to do it, because it is a huge PITA. Now imagine if that were part of the MANDATORY quest goal -- dont kill any spiders, period. Obviously, Turbine was smart about this and realized the majority of players would HATE this quest, so the compromised by setting that as an optional and the 5-spider as a mandatory.

I can only think of one person I have ever met who actually did the optional, and he was soloing it, with me piking in front for the flag. He was significantly underwhelmed by the reward for it. I dont even remember now if you can get an extra ing out of that chest. And that only demonstrates that players DONT like the mechanic itself, hence why pretty much everyone does it the way we do now -- zerg part one and tip-toe through part 2. If folks actually LIKED the mechanic, and the reward were actually worth it, they would always do this optional. Why dont they (aside from not liking it)? Cos the reward sucks. It just isnt enough of an incentive. So remove THAT optional, replace it with 'dont kill any spiders period -- or dont kill 5', toss a significant chunk of the quest XP in it (while reducing the main XP) and put a worthwhile chest there -- namely the ings chest. And remove the auto-fail. Now THAT would be a challenge for those that see this as a challenge, and it would be an incentive to experience the unique quest mechanic, while earning extra goodies.

For those that are just trying to get the flag and pie...so what? They arent interested in doing the PITA spider thing for time number 273. They have already 'beaten' this quest. Repeatedly. Its not a challenge or a thrill, its just an ends to a means. So they can zerg their thing, and those who 'like' doing it the 'hard' way can still do so. Again, optionals are SUPPOSED to be an extra challenge for reward quest customization.

Permadeath guilds deal with self-imposed restrictions and limitations and 'fails' on a daily basis. Honestly, do you think that a game mechanic that mandates you fail vs a player-choice mechanic that says you failed is really different, when the fail 'trigger' is exactly the same? If you WANT to fail because you didnt save the spiders, you can. Some folks play with the idea that if they dont do ALL of the optionals and get ALL of the bonuses, they didnt complete the quest properly. Its more a matter of perspective than anything. If you view not killing the spiders as a challenge, then you can STILL have that challenge by not killing them. If you DO kill them, then you can choose to restart or not. Removing the mandatory fail does not change that unless YOU decide to go on. In which case, its obvious that -- regardless of what you THOUGH was the case -- completing the quest was more important to you than the challenge of doing so. Either way you have a CHOICE.

I try for the optional chest every time and most of the people in the group want it as well as to changing the mechanic no more making the game easier its getting tiiresome I remember when some people had trouble getting out of the lower area just because they couldnt get past the solo tavern quest and then they couldnt get into market because they couldnt master water works I miss those days. and have done the extra chest in dust dozens of times

[efreet5]

3. Don't use two-handed weapons

Incorrect! If you twitch fight with your 2 hander, then you don't have any problems with glancing blows. So, number 3 should read: "Learn to play the game!"

[Tammuz]

Incorrect! If you twitch fight with your 2 hander, then you don't have any problems with glancing blows. So, number 3 should read: "Learn to play the game!"

But isnt twitch-fighting an unintended consequence of the system rather than intentional?

[WangChi]

Just ran this quest for the first time ever in a PUG this afternoon, tried for the optional "kill no spiders" chest, and had absolutely no trouble with it at all. Even had a WF Barb swinging a big greataxe.

Our method was just to let the sorc finger the ogre's while I led the way and pulled the spiders away until the ogre's were dead. Honestly, it was an incredibly simple tactic that worked with ease, and I can only think of once where I saw a spider even take damage, and it was from an accidental glancing blow from the over-zealous WF barb.

I love this kind of mechanic in a game, adds a challenge and even if the rewards weren't great, at least I can say I pugged it AND got the optional chest.

[DaSawks]

1) The quest is (has been, until more recent content additions) sitting in an area of the quests for XP where there is limited choice for where to harvest XP. It has been a rather barren landscape for quests - that general area - but that is changing. Slowly.

2) It is part of a chains RAID flagging mechanism. Required for access to more (for what at the time of creation) was limited content. Cap content. End-game content.

In comparisson, the following "Protect-The-NPC" quests (some that have an autofail) fall in Content Rich landscape - far more choices exist for skipping that/those quests and not feeling the lack of XP roll in to advance with:

Level 1 Base Quests:
Redemption - Autofail on NPC death
The Cannith Crystal - Autofail on crystal death
Stealthy Reposession - Autofail on death of too many Prophets

Level 2 Base Quests:
Protect Baudry's Interests - Autofail on box death
Arachnophobia -Autofail on too many sarcophogi breaks (solo only)

Level 3 Base Quests:
Where There's Smoke - Autofail on not putting out the fire [Kinda unsure about this one, I think it may have happened onceand I've been really quick to always get to the valve since]
WW Chapter x - autofail on NPC death
Home Sweet Sewer - autofail on death of 1 of 5 npc; level 3 base (solo only)
The Captives - autofail on death of main npc? [Unsure, I never release the cages until end]

Level 4 through 5 Base Quests:
Stand Your Ground - little fail on NPC brothers death, autofail on main NPC death
The Bookbinder Rescue - Autofail on death of 1 of 5 (?) npc
Guard Duty - autofail on death of too many sailors
A Small Problem - autofail on death of Brawnpits

Level 6 through 10 Base Quests:
Gladewatch Outpost Defense - autofail on death of NPC
The Rescue - autofail on death of NPC (Threnal walk dwarf to top)
Faithful Departed - autofail on death of too many Venerable
Escort The Expedition - autofail on NPC death (Threnal get 3 npc to library door)
The Last Stand - autofail on not having 1 villager live, autofail on main NPC death
Slavers of the Shrieking Mines - autofail on too many monkey deaths
Hold for Reinforcments - autofail on NPC (Coyle) death

Level 11 through 14 Base Quests:
From Beyond the Grave - autofail on death of gate
Desert Caravan - autofail on all wagon deaths (?)
The Cursed Crypt - autofail on too many Silver Flame deaths
Assault on Summerfield - little fail (or auto?) on death of captain [Unsure, only done a few times]
*Madstone Crater - Protecting Giant NPC's resets a timer when their health falls too low (?)

Level 16 through 18 Base Quests:
Let Sleeping Dust Lie - autfail on 5 spider deaths
Prey on the Hunter - autofail on death of dragon
The Shipwrecked Spy - autofail on death of captain(?)

There maybe more after this, but for this life this is where my compendium stops and I am not greatly familiar with whatever may be higher. I may even be wrong on a few of these as they are not ones I run often.

Just entered this - it may be ugly in formatting. After seeing I may spend some time later to try to clean it up; but for now I want to kill foes and take their stuff.

One thing that maybe sort of becomes a little more clear - there are several quests where Autofails are possible. There is a wider assortment where this general mechanic is in use than maybe stays in the mind... because much of the lower content is bypassed by the xp/min folks? Because the lower quests are generally more plentiful? Because the lower quests are generally less resource/time investments?

Awesome list. I learned more from this than the rest of the 7 pages in this thread. TYVM.