Let Sleeping Dust Lie

[Fensen]

I think the fail condition is not the real problem in this quest. If you are forced to run without a caster or if you try it solo with a melee type and hireling, off hand damage is the real issue. And I do not mean from two handed weapons either. I am talking about off hand damage from a one handed weapon. Even with targeting the orgres and making sure no spiders are between me and the target, the attacks still do damage to the spiders. I know the damage is not coming from my hireling because I very quickly learned to park the hireling far away from the fight. If there is a way of stopping the off hand damage, I would love to know. I don't mind having to be careful; I do mind quest failure for reasons that seem beyond my control.

[Schmoe]

I think the fail condition is not the real problem in this quest. If you are forced to run without a caster or if you try it solo with a melee type and hireling, off hand damage is the real issue. And I do not mean from two handed weapons either. I am talking about off hand damage from a one handed weapon. Even with targeting the orgres and making sure no spiders are between me and the target, the attacks still do damage to the spiders. I know the damage is not coming from my hireling because I very quickly learned to park the hireling far away from the fight. If there is a way of stopping the off hand damage, I would love to know. I don't mind having to be careful; I do mind quest failure for reasons that seem beyond my control.

Paralyzing weapons are extremely helpful in LSDL. Your stray hits will paralyze the spiders, alerting you that you are damaging them and giving you a chance to move away. Vorpals, cleave, etc. should obviously be avoided.

To the OP's post, I don't think I've ever failed this quest, even when running it without arcane casters.. Take it slowly and use tactics. It can be done, it just requires a bit of patience and communication.

[diamabel]

...

If anything should be changed then it's the hp/saves NPCs get in various difficulty settings. As it's now the babysitting quests are easier if you do them on higher difficulties and harder if you do them on lower difficulty settings.

It is annoying to fail these kind of quest objectives. Why blame the game mechanics if it's the party's fault. Some communication and explanation before the quest starts should help.

p.s.
My quick fix would be to grant 2 additional bonus chests for not killing spiders. At least you can count on peoples's greed to learn new ropes. ,)

[varusso]

Folks who support keeping this mechanic are mostly the ones who already have no trouble completing it (mostly soloing or in trusted groups). If you have no trouble completing it, then the penalty doesnt even apply to you in the first place. Your 'thrill of danger' at a possible fail isnt real, and likely has not been for some time. You are already running it at low - to - no risk. Changing the mechanic really does not affect you. It only affects everyone ELSE that you seem to think should be required to trudge through it in this manner, simply because we had to do it. I personally find that a poor reason to avoid a change.

[ceiswyn]

Folks who support keeping this mechanic are mostly the ones who already have no trouble completing it (mostly soloing or in trusted groups). If you have no trouble completing it, then the penalty doesnt even apply to you in the first place. Your 'thrill of danger' at a possible fail isnt real, and likely has not been for some time. You are already running it at low - to - no risk.

By that definition the 'thrill of danger' in a rollercoaster ride isn't real either, because there's a low - to no - risk of actually falling or crashing, and yet for some reason it still manages to induce fun and excitement in a way that getting on the 4.15 to Paddington doesn't. Your understanding of psychology appears to be somewhat lacking.

In any case, you've made one heck of a lot of assumptions there, and most of them are wrong. There's always a risk. It's why I like this kind of quest; you can never switch off and just run in waving your swords, you have to be careful every single time. It doesn't matter how good you get, or how many times you've done it, or how well you know it, or how well you're geared; if you get cocky and try to zerg it you are going to fail. Maybe you've walked that tightrope above a chasm fifty times without falling; but that doesn't mean the chasm isn't there.

Changing the mechanic really does not affect you.

Apart from, y'know, making the quest less fun for me. That is a fact, and you cannot argue around it. If you change the fail mechanic to a don't-get-a-chest mechanic, you make the quest not-fun for many of those who currently enjoy it, whether you personally think that is logical or not.

It only affects everyone ELSE that you seem to think should be required to trudge through it in this manner, simply because we had to do it. I personally find that a poor reason to avoid a change.

Whereas I find 'I don't care that it's one of only three quests that caters to a certain type of gamer, or that it's easy enough to run with a bit of thought even with a gimped character; I find it hard and don't like it, so you should change it' equally poor. We appear to be at an impasse.

How about if it weren't a required flagging quest, and you could avoid doing it? Would you be happy enough not messing about with the core bit that makes it fun then?

[Chai]

Folks who support keeping this mechanic are mostly the ones who already have no trouble completing it (mostly soloing or in trusted groups). If you have no trouble completing it, then the penalty doesnt even apply to you in the first place. Your 'thrill of danger' at a possible fail isnt real, and likely has not been for some time. You are already running it at low - to - no risk. Changing the mechanic really does not affect you. It only affects everyone ELSE that you seem to think should be required to trudge through it in this manner, simply because we had to do it. I personally find that a poor reason to avoid a change.

And many of us who did have to do it for a long time now see this type of request as "I cant be bothered with the learning curve to play this game. Just give it to me."

Im not an elitist. I dont consider myself a "better player" than the next person, so the way I see it, if I can make it through this, so can you. Many of us feel that the game has been made much easier than it used to be. Sure I could give you ye ald old fart lecture about how we had it much harder at cap 16 with no PRE in most classes, no FvS, etc blah blah blah but theres no need. This quest was the easiest of the five vale quests even at that time. Ritual sacrifice is prob the same difficulty, but the other three, Coal Chamber, Rainbow, and Devils, are harder.

This type of request can also be seen as a precursor to other nerf requests. You are flagging for Shroud by running vale quests. Will there be requests to nerf Shroud because the puzzles are too hard, and Sagratta teleports all over the place? Rising to meet the challenge rather than asking for quests to be nerfed will be seen as the better attitude by players whose groups you are applying to when running this content.

[varusso]

snip

You have utterly missed the point. Players who want to complete it the 'right' way would still be able to do it. Players who ALREADY know how to beat the quest and do so on a regular basis are NOT in any real danger of failing, unless they PUG or have a serious brain-fart (or are running it drastically underlevel with a bad build/gear just to see if they can do it). Even then, its not likely they will trigger the auto-fail, but rather get killed doing something above them. All of the testimonials about how 'easy' it is to complete this quest, and how so-and-so has run umpteen runs without a fail only serve to prove that. The risk of failure is an illusion to a single player or group that knows how to do the quest AND does it that way.

The ACTUAL risk of failure comes when you have a random pug, players who DONT know the quest, the rare griefer, or players who cant/dont listen/understand. These include kids, people of different nationalities, the occasional idiot, and the griefers. And you never know for sure if one of these types is lurking until you actually see the 5th spider die -- which can be right up to the very end of the quest. Most people will shrug off one spider dying early on, and simply remind the party not to kill any more. After all its easy to accidentally kill one, and you get up to 4, right? Until they get to the end and suddenly fail when the others are killed.

All this really does is (as I have said) discourage people from pugging on this quest. If you can solo it or run it with a trusted group, why would you bother risking such a colossal waste of time?

If it werent a flagging quest, and didnt drop INGs for GS, I daresay this quest would be largely avoided. Run once and done, if that, just for the favor. When a quest is avoided by a significant portion of the playerbase (for any reason) then it should be revisited. This is not the case, however, because it IS a flagging/GS INGs quest.

And BTW, I used the word MOST not ALL when describing the folks who want to keep the mechanic. That implies exceptions to the rule.

[Schmoe]

Folks who support keeping this mechanic are mostly the ones who already have no trouble completing it (mostly soloing or in trusted groups). If you have no trouble completing it, then the penalty doesnt even apply to you in the first place. Your 'thrill of danger' at a possible fail isnt real, and likely has not been for some time. You are already running it at low - to - no risk. Changing the mechanic really does not affect you. It only affects everyone ELSE that you seem to think should be required to trudge through it in this manner, simply because we had to do it. I personally find that a poor reason to avoid a change.

I'm sorry, do you think you could toss in a few more baseless and inaccurate assumptions? I'm one of the people who hasn't ever failed the quest, and yet:

1. I've pugged it 75% of the time
2. Most of my completions were for XP, flagging, or favor while I was still 15th-18th level

It's really too bad that you have found the quest too difficult so far. But that doesn't mean that the only people to find it easy somehow avoid the pug experience.

And yes, changing the mechanic DOES affect me. I enjoy a challenge that makes me think and play a little differently. If the mechanic changes, I no longer have that enjoyment. EAD.

[varusso]

And many of us who did have to do it for a long time now see this type of request as "I cant be bothered with the learning curve to play this game. Just give it to me."

Im not an elitist. I dont consider myself a "better player" than the next person, so the way I see it, if I can make it through this, so can you. Many of us feel that the game has been made much easier than it used to be. Sure I could give you ye ald old fart lecture about how we had it much harder at cap 16 with no PRE in most classes, no FvS, etc blah blah blah but theres no need. This quest was the easiest of the five vale quests even at that time. Ritual sacrifice is prob the same difficulty, but the other three, Coal Chamber, Rainbow, and Devils, are harder.

This type of request can also be seen as a precursor to other nerf requests. You are flagging for Shroud by running vale quests. Will there be requests to nerf Shroud because the puzzles are too hard, and Sagratta teleports all over the place? Rising to meet the challenge rather than asking for quests to be nerfed will be seen as the better attitude by players whose groups you are applying to when running this content.

The 'snowball' theory as a reason for denial is weaksauce, sorry. Well if we do this, then they will want to do that, then this...blah blah. You address each one if/when it comes up. You dont use them as an excuse to preemptively deny something on the basis that it MIGHT (or even WILL) lead to something else. This is not that, these are not those; this is only this.

I am one of the folks who CAN and DO complete this quest successfully, because I know how to do it the 'right' way. I do it solo all the time. Again, the problem is in a pug -- for the reasons stated. Now, if you have even one person who knows the quest, they can pretty-much hand-hold a group of newbies through it (if they listen), and may lose or two spiders along the way, but still complete. If it is so 'easy' to complete it, that the mechanic is moot, then the mechanic only serves to frustrate when it goes south. There are other ways to incentivize players to NOT kill the spiders, without failing the entire thing immediately when someone doesnt listen or makes a mistake. Five people should not pay for one bonehead. Non-autofail quests, you can still complete even if your get one of these goofballs in your group and they cause a complete wipe.

Once again, the auto-fail nature of this quest specifically comes into play when pugging, and only serves to discourage it. Having run this quest countless times, and talked to countless players, by far the majority of people I have run into dislike the mechanic, and complain about how they HATE to pug it for the same reasons. Naturally, these folks are the same ones that tend NOT to fail it when I run with them. None of us mind being able to fail a quest. None of us mind a challenging mechanic. What we DO mind is having all of our time utterly wasted because of a mechanic that is so easy to trigger. Put a steep enough penalty on doing it the wrong way, and the majority of players WILL strive to do it the right way. But that penalty should not include a complete waste of invested time/resources, with no possible way to salvage it.

And no thats NOT a request to put auto-success vs bosses or just win as soon as you walk into a quest, blah blah, before someone decides to snowball nonsense THAT.

[varusso]

I'm sorry, do you think you could toss in a few more baseless and inaccurate assumptions? I'm one of the people who hasn't ever failed the quest, and yet:

1. I've pugged it 75% of the time
2. Most of my completions were for XP, flagging, or favor while I was still 15th-18th level

It's really too bad that you have found the quest too difficult so far. But that doesn't mean that the only people to find it easy somehow avoid the pug experience.

And yes, changing the mechanic DOES affect me. I enjoy a challenge that makes me think and play a little differently. If the mechanic changes, I no longer have that enjoyment. EAD.

You should practice reading comprehension. I said MOST, not ALL. I have also said multiple times *I* do not find this quest HARD in any way. I can solo it whenever I choose for the flag/pie/ings. What I DONT LIKE is the ease of an auto-fail and wasted time in a random PUG. That is not remotely the same thing.

You would still have your challenge if you decided to go for the optionals. The rewards for doing so would be enough to encourage it for the majority of groups. If you just want to zerg for a piece of pie/flagging, go ahead. But if you want a CHALLENGE then dont kill the spiders, get a ton more XP, and get GS Ings. Your results would be the same. Meanwhile, everyone else who is sick of failing it for silly reasons would still get to flag/pie OR they could choose to recall out and start over if they wanted to do it right and get the optional rewards. Which is fundamentally no different than auto-failing it, other than the fact you get to CHOOSE whether or not you completely waste your invested time and resources.

A game mechanic that is FRUSTRATING is not the same as a CHALLENGE. For those who know how to complete this correctly and who can do so on a regular basis, this is not a challenge. Its like knowing how a mystery novel turns out. Once you know the ending, there is no real thrill of discovery. You may still enjoy reading the book and pretending you dont know, but you still know. Once you have every word memorized, you cant even pretend anymore. If you lost the book when you were on the last chapter, you would STILL be frustrated, even though you already read it several times, right?

[ceiswyn]

Players who want to complete it the 'right' way would still be able to do it.

But we would not enjoy doing so anymore, so what exactly would be the point?

I have said, very clearly, that changing the quest in the way you suggest would make it far less fun for those who currently like it. Whether that makes sense to you is entirely irrelevant. What is relevant is that you want to take one of three quests in the game with this particular mechanic - which some people enjoy - and change it to lose that mechanic, because you don't like it or understand why other people do.

When a quest is avoided by a significant portion of the playerbase (for any reason) then it should be revisited.

It should; but that shouldn't always mean changed. Maybe a quest is avoided by a significant portion of the playerbase because it's just hell on a stick and nobody really likes it; but maybe it's avoided by a significant portion of the playerbase but much enjoyed by a minority. And if that's the case then no, it doesn't need changing to suit the lowest common denominator; but there is a definite argument for moving it out of the main highway of gameplay.

What is it with people constantly trying to remove variety from the game?

[ceiswyn]

A game mechanic that is FRUSTRATING is not the same as a CHALLENGE.

But, and I cannot emphasise this enough, you are not everybody.

You find it frustrating; others do not.
You do not regard it as a challenge; others do.
You think optionals are identical to a fail condition; others do not.

Stop regarding your own subjective perception and perspective as objective fact, and take on board what other people are telling you without dismissing their experiences as inferior to your own.

[Chai]

The 'snowball' theory as a reason for denial is weaksauce, sorry. Well if we do this, then they will want to do that, then this...blah blah. You address each one if/when it comes up. You dont use them as an excuse to preemptively deny something on the basis that it MIGHT (or even WILL) lead to something else. This is not that, these are not those; this is only this.

Sorry, I disagree. Theres enough evidence here to show that what you cal "snowball theory" has played its hand quite often in DDO. 5 years of it in fact.

Over 5 years of play we have seen your "snowball theory" play out more than once. It all started when players 4.5 years ago complained the game was too hard. If I could, I would fire up the flux capacitor, dump some banana peels and some beer into the Mr. Garbage fuel converter, and nail down 1.21 jiggawatts and have people play DDO at the end of 2007 when the Vale came out, and illustrate how much harder it was than it is now, and how the snowball effect has played out due o the constant complaining of players that the game was too hard. Where we're going, we dont need roads.

I am one of the folks who CAN and DO complete this quest successfully, because I know how to do it the 'right' way. I do it solo all the time.

Then why ask for a change?

Again, the problem is in a pug -- for the reasons stated. Now, if you have even one person who knows the quest, they can pretty-much hand-hold a group of newbies through it (if they listen), and may lose or two spiders along the way, but still complete. If it is so 'easy' to complete it, that the mechanic is moot, then the mechanic only serves to frustrate when it goes south. There are other ways to incentivize players to NOT kill the spiders, without failing the entire thing immediately when someone doesnt listen or makes a mistake. Five people should not pay for one bonehead. Non-autofail quests, you can still complete even if your get one of these goofballs in your group and they cause a complete wipe.

I see whats happening here. Its not that we cant be bothered with the learning curve of the game, its that we cant be bothered to communicate and cooperate with PUGs to acheive the same goal. Who would have thougt that we should have to be FORCED to COOPERATE with the other group emmbers in order to succeed in a Dungeons and Dragons based game?

D&D is a forced cooperation game.

Side note: Ever notice that its always the PUGs fault in these nerf request threads? If it werent for you 5 noobs, I would have completed this by now. LOL.

Once again, the auto-fail nature of this quest specifically comes into play when pugging, and only serves to discourage it. Having run this quest countless times, and talked to countless players, by far the majority of people I have run into dislike the mechanic, and complain about how they HATE to pug it for the same reasons. Naturally, these folks are the same ones that tend NOT to fail it when I run with them. None of us mind being able to fail a quest. None of us mind a challenging mechanic. What we DO mind is having all of our time utterly wasted because of a mechanic that is so easy to trigger. Put a steep enough penalty on doing it the wrong way, and the majority of players WILL strive to do it the right way. But that penalty should not include a complete waste of invested time/resources, with no possible way to salvage it.

And no thats NOT a request to put auto-success vs bosses or just win as soon as you walk into a quest, blah blah, before someone decides to snowball nonsense THAT.

There are many things I can think of to resolve your issue with bad PUGs who cant complete a quest due to lack of communication, lack of paying attention, or simply wanting to grief the rest of the group. Nerfing the quests down to the point where its practically a "gimme" is not on that list.

[varusso]

But we would not enjoy doing so anymore, so what exactly would be the point?

I have said, very clearly, that changing the quest in the way you suggest would make it far less fun for those who currently like it. Whether that makes sense to you is entirely irrelevant. What is relevant is that you want to take one of three quests in the game with this particular mechanic - which some people enjoy - and change it to lose that mechanic, because you don't like it or understand why other people do.

When a quest is avoided by a significant portion of the playerbase (for any reason) then it should be revisited.

It should; but that shouldn't always mean changed. Maybe a quest is avoided by a significant portion of the playerbase because it's just hell on a stick and nobody really likes it; but maybe it's avoided by a significant portion of the playerbase but much enjoyed by a minority. And if that's the case then no, it doesn't need changing to suit the lowest common denominator; but there is a definite argument for moving it out of the main highway of gameplay.

What is it with people constantly trying to remove variety from the game?

Actually, revisiting a quest that is seldom run WOULD almost by definition mean changes. What is the point of reviewing such a quest, if not to make changes that WOULD make players want to run it?

I dont see how giving you the option to run the quest EXACTLY the same way you do now removes the fun of it. Changing it so that it is an optional actually ADDS more variety, BTW, not take it away. Optionals are intended to function as something on the side; they add more challenge/reward to players who want it, while removing it for those who want a more streamlined version. It allows BOTH types of players (and everyone in between) to customize the quest to a large degree, tailoring it to what they specifically want out of it. If you WANT to get all of the rewards out of the quest, then you do all of the optionals. It would function no differently, in the end, that the current version, other than to give you the choice of how you proceed if you fail to save the spiders.

Again, the majority of players I have encountered (pugs and otherwise) HATE this mechanic -- not because we abhor additional challenges, but because we DETEST how easy it is to completely waste our time in that quest. What we want is a CHOICE on whether or not to continue with the quest when the spider portion fails. The chance of failure does not serve as an additional challenge, but as a source of frustration. Putting it into an optional removes a large degree of frustration, while still allowing players who like the mechanic to run it the way they already do. If you LIKE the auto-fail mechanic, and you end up killing 5 spiders, then recall and reset. The result is the same for you.

[Thrudh]

What I DONT LIKE is the ease of an auto-fail and wasted time in a random PUG.

Well, I disagree with your premise.. I have PUGged this numerous times, and I don't see auto-fail being that hard to avoid.

I LIKE that it has a different vibe to it, that it's not a zerg kill everything type of quest.

I see no issue, and I don't want the devs to change it.

We'll have to agree to disagree (Feel free to state that I've utterly missed the point, my argument is weaksauce, and that I need to practice my reading comprehension, plus any other lame insults you can think of)

A game mechanic that is FRUSTRATING is not the same as a CHALLENGE. For those who know how to complete this correctly and who can do so on a regular basis, this is not a challenge. Its like knowing how a mystery novel turns out. Once you know the ending, there is no real thrill of discovery. You may still enjoy reading the book and pretending you dont know, but you still know. Once you have every word memorized, you cant even pretend anymore. If you lost the book when you were on the last chapter, you would STILL be frustrated, even though you already read it several times, right?

Whoops... one more comment.

This is nothing like a reading a mystery novel. There's NO secret... Even first-timers understand right away (if they're not ********) to not kill spiders... The trick is the implementation, and that requires a different set of skills than normal quests.

The Pit is frustrating to some people. Others like it because it requires different skills than most quests. Same with this one. It requires different skills. You have to play differently in here than other quests.

And that's good.

[Thrudh]

Stop regarding your own subjective perception and perspective as objective fact, and take on board what other people are telling you without dismissing their experiences as inferior to your own.

Excellent post... +1

[voxson5]

For me its the challenge that made it interesting. Well, that and the fact that gs blank ingredients/pie drops from the quest, which makes the run worthwhile.

Yes is is frustrating when you;re starting out & learning the quest (and indeed learning your character), and when running with others who are doing the same. But we *all* had to learn it sometime, and it takes a while for some of us :P

[Thrudh]

how easy it is to completely waste our time in that quest.

It's not easy to fail that quest. The venerated quest (Faithful Departed?) was easy to fail, and they changed it. This quest gives you 5 chances to not fail.

The vast majority of PUGs can handle it.

The people who hate that quest mostly hate it because they have to be careful, because they have to move slow, and it can be a long quest. They don't hate it because they fail all the time... I've heard many people complain about that quest when inside, but we never failed it.

The problem with your suggestion about making GS ingrediants an optional is that you will stop people from PUGing that quest even more. A PUG is more likely to not care about screwing up an OPTIONAL than he will care about a FAIL.

[ceiswyn]

Actually, revisiting a quest that is seldom run WOULD almost by definition mean changes. What is the point of reviewing such a quest, if not to make changes that WOULD make players want to run it?

Because if there is a sizeable minority of players who like the quest just as it is, it means it's not a bad quest, it just appeals to a niche audience.

Appealing to a niche audience is not a bad thing. The problem comes if there are a significant number of quests that only appeal to a niche audience; which is not currently the case.

I dont see how giving you the option to run the quest EXACTLY the same way you do now removes the fun of it.

You have made your lack of understanding quite clear. Various people have attempted to explain; you have rubbished our explanations. Now will you please just accept that this is the case because we who feel that way tell you so?

It would function no differently, in the end, that the current version

FOR YOU. Again, it would be a entirely different - and lesser - experience for some of us.

Again, the majority of players I have encountered (pugs and otherwise) HATE this mechanic

I have never argued otherwise. It's why I would support taking the quest out of the mainstream of the game.

The chance of failure does not serve as an additional challenge, but as a source of frustration.

FOR YOU.

If you LIKE the auto-fail mechanic, and you end up killing 5 spiders, then recall and reset. The result is the same for you.

Y'know how earlier you were talking about the illusion of risk? This is the illusion of risk. And it is, as you would guess, not nearly as much fun as the real thing.

[Aashrym]

You should practice reading comprehension. I said MOST, not ALL. I have also said multiple times *I* do not find this quest HARD in any way. I can solo it whenever I choose for the flag/pie/ings. What I DONT LIKE is the ease of an auto-fail and wasted time in a random PUG. That is not remotely the same thing.

You would still have your challenge if you decided to go for the optionals. The rewards for doing so would be enough to encourage it for the majority of groups. If you just want to zerg for a piece of pie/flagging, go ahead. But if you want a CHALLENGE then dont kill the spiders, get a ton more XP, and get GS Ings. Your results would be the same. Meanwhile, everyone else who is sick of failing it for silly reasons would still get to flag/pie OR they could choose to recall out and start over if they wanted to do it right and get the optional rewards. Which is fundamentally no different than auto-failing it, other than the fact you get to CHOOSE whether or not you completely waste your invested time and resources.

A game mechanic that is FRUSTRATING is not the same as a CHALLENGE. For those who know how to complete this correctly and who can do so on a regular basis, this is not a challenge. Its like knowing how a mystery novel turns out. Once you know the ending, there is no real thrill of discovery. You may still enjoy reading the book and pretending you dont know, but you still know. Once you have every word memorized, you cant even pretend anymore. If you lost the book when you were on the last chapter, you would STILL be frustrated, even though you already read it several times, right?

I wouldn't even say most. I've never failed the that quest either whether pugging, solo, or guild group. I can see a concern on a griefer but I've never actually met one.

What you find frustrating on that mechanic just might not be as frustrating for other players. I do like it, as mentioned earlier.

If anything I would agree that the spiders should have better stats on normal and become weaker as the difficulty goes up.