Let Sleeping Dust Lie

[Junts]

Auto-Fail with rediculously low trigger points is horrible. The players *time* should somehow be respected greater.

Reasonable sounding suggestions by the OP.

--

In addition we should get a huge chunk of additional optional XP at the end of East Threnal 3 by having an choice to turn on Coyle and kill him ourselves.

--

This isn't possible because Coyle is a main factor in the storyline of threnal south, which is only unlocked by doing east. If he's dead, threnal south can't occur.

[DaSawks]

This quest is so easy.

1. Enter.
2. Kill everything on the lower level.
3. Jump up to the second level. (requires Monk, FVS, or Air Sorc)
4. Kill everything on second level.
5. Pick up second book.
6. Kill bosses.
7. Pick up first book.
8. Complete.

[Angelus_dead]

OK, just failed this quest AGAIN. Anyone want to guess how? Yup. Someone killed the spiders.
Auto-fail mechanics like this make a quest SUCK.

One specific error in this quest is Dungeon Scaling.

Dungeon Scaling reduces enemy hitpoints with the intention of making the quest easier. If lowering their hp instead makes it harder, then Dungeon Scaling shouldn't lower those monsters' hp.

[zebidos]

Its fairly easy to solo this on a melee + healer hire, (lol, easier than some groups actually)


All you need is the shield from the diplomatic impunity quest (the one with the stone prison guard).
Shield of Reflecting

-Run around & clear as normal, kill everything without prejudice, find the journal & wait until all sides are clear before reading it.

-Read journal

-Find & kill Kasi

-Take off your guards & equip anything that boosts your hps & saves (pop a planar gird, umd/clickie stoneskin etc)

-Equip a single handed weapon (I recommend a decent burst khopesh for high crit damage potential, even if you're not proficient) and the reflecting shield

-Use "q" or " backspace" in the main room to find the second journal & the corresponding path & head down to the doorway

Here's the trick:

-Open, run in & block -> wait for spiders to get turned to stone (does happen quite quickly, even with just a 17 DC)

-Kill ogres

-profit!


With a bit of practice you can do this without spider kills & then just turn into the butcher of bakersfield at the last fight.

Things to note:
-Sometimes you'll agro spiders before the ogre see's you, just back away a bit & let the stone proc & run back up & kill

-Single handed weapon (not bastard sword/ DA) means no glancing blows, so you can attack an ogre while a spider is on your back/flank

-There is no need to rush when going for the 2nd journal, taking a bit of time makes life a lot easier later on



I've done this multiple times now <30 minutes per run on a non-capped THF spec'ed WF pally, guildmate has done this with a capped 28 point dwarf THF fighter.

Let the funk farm commence!

What he said.

+1 rep.

[varusso]

This quest is so easy.

1. Enter.
2. Kill everything on the lower level.
3. Jump up to the second level. (requires Monk, FVS, or Air Sorc)
4. Kill everything on second level.
5. Pick up second book.
6. Kill bosses.
7. Pick up first book.
8. Complete.

This would be one of the exploits i was referring to NOT using.

And once again, I am not looking for advice on how to beat this quest. I can beat this quest easily SOLO. It becomes exponentially easier to fail the more people you add. It simply does not make sense to be forced to solo a quest in order to increase the likelihood of succeeding, due simply to a mechanic that no one actually *LIKES* and simply defends it on the theory that it makes a quest harder. It doesnt actually make the quest HARDER, just more frustrating due to such an easy auto-fail mechanic. You can only control what the other 5 people do so much. The fact that everyone has an easy way to beat the quest only confirms that. When the result of a game mechanic is to encourage soloing just to get around the likelihood of triggering that mechanic, it is a bad mechanic.

And for those who insist that the mechanic should stay because it is 'so easy to NOT kill the spiders' ... then why does it matter to you if the mechanic is taken away? You can already complete it every time without killing the spiders, so just do that. The quest doesnt change for you, except when you PUG.

[ceiswyn]

It simply does not make sense to be forced to solo a quest in order to increase the likelihood of succeeding, due simply to a mechanic that no one actually *LIKES*

I like it.

I like having to fight with precision and thought and care rather than just rushing in killing everything. I actively enjoy it.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that nobody likes a thing just because you do.

and simply defends it on the theory that it makes a quest harder.

And that's why other people like it too. Some people like the challenge.

And for those who insist that the mechanic should stay because it is 'so easy to NOT kill the spiders' ... then why does it matter to you if the mechanic is taken away?

Because then the quest just becomes a mindless hack'n'slash like all the others. The variety of the challenge in quests is one of the things that makes DDO better than the 'kill everything and take its loot' of, say, WoW; let's keep it that way.

[alexp80]

/ NOT signed.

Yes this quest is annoying, but it is the way it is. It is one of the toughest parts of the quest, NOT killing the spiders. My main is a very high dps 2nd life barb, one swing with my lit 2 Falcion can accidentally kill 4 or 5 spiders. I hate this quest! It is one of only 2 Vale quests I can not solo (other being rainbow). But that is why I love it!

Most quests involve simple dps'ing a mob down before he can kill you, this one offers an interesting, if somewhat annoying, twist. DDO should be designed to give quests like this instead of simply seeing if we can kill a mob before it can kill us.

I personally want MORE quests like this. And love the new expansion packs due to their diversity (meaning final boss fights - a puzzle in the middle of the fight with adds spawning and spoiling the puzzle (monastery style!) and a wired giant thing immune to attacks until it damages weird things you need to hide behind.).

Totally agree.

I would like to see more quest with objectives different from "kill this" or "kill that".

Btw, if you find that easy killing spiders accidentaly, do the quest hard/elite... spiders are less squishy and harder to kill.

Anyway there are A LOT of different strategies to complete the quest fast and smooth

[Chai]

I like Sleepig Dust. Its a great quest.

Not being able to kill spiders breaks us out of the brute force wade in and kill habbit. We have to think of what works and what doesnt rather than just equip the weapon that gives us the best damage numbers and start swinging. Holy greater giant bane weapons rule in there because they barely do any damage to the spiders while hitting the ogres for alot of damage. Fearsome armor is also a good tactic.

[alexp80]

[...] to a mechanic that no one actually *LIKES* and simply defends it on the theory that it makes a quest harder. It doesnt actually make the quest HARDER, just more frustrating due to such an easy auto-fail mechanic. You can only control what the other 5 people do so much. The fact that everyone has an easy way to beat the quest only confirms that. When the result of a game mechanic is to encourage soloing just to get around the likelihood of triggering that mechanic, it is a bad mechanic.

And for those who insist that the mechanic should stay because it is 'so easy to NOT kill the spiders' ... then why does it matter to you if the mechanic is taken away? You can already complete it every time without killing the spiders, so just do that. The quest doesnt change for you, except when you PUG.

This is a mechanic that YOU don't like, don't assume all the players have your same opinion.
And, if you find this quest THAT annoying, you are not forced to do it more than once to flag for Shroud.

Quests like this are a few, you will find plenty of hack'n'slash quest where you will be able to play the way you like the most

[Bunker]

Hack and slash does not require any skill. So when it actually comes to a point in the game where NOT doing something is important, that is why so many ppl fail.

If one shoting monsters is the problem, run on a higher difficulty. If there are group members that still can't resist killing any and everything, don't group with them.

There is always a solution. IE I ran with a wizard that loved to spam wall of fire and cone of cold. He just wouldn't let up cause he said his instance-kill DCs were crappy. Refused to stop using AoE. I suggested using only acid spells. He could spam to his hearts content and no spiders would be hurt.

My point is that there is always a solution to group make-up and fellow group issues. Asking the devalued to change a quest that is broke makes sense, but if you haven't exhausted all your options in solving your grouping issues, why trouble the devs.

[varusso]

I like it.

I like having to fight with precision and thought and care rather than just rushing in killing everything. I actively enjoy it.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that nobody likes a thing just because you do.



And that's why other people like it too. Some people like the challenge.



Because then the quest just becomes a mindless hack'n'slash like all the others. The variety of the challenge in quests is one of the things that makes DDO better than the 'kill everything and take its loot' of, say, WoW; let's keep it that way.

It only becomes a hack fest if YOU (your group) want it to be. If your group wants to zerg it and kill everything, thats fine. Put the ings a chest for NOT killing the 5 spiders, like another poster suggested, and there are plenty of incentives to NOT kill the spiders, but you CAN kill them if you just want a piece of pie and flag. And if the group doesnt want to do it the same way you do? Like any other quest, drop group and make your own -- or go solo it.

As I said the theory that this mechanic makes the quest HARDER is incorrect; it only makes it more frustrating. YOu can completely remove the problem by soloing. Thats bad design.

[varusso]

This is a mechanic that YOU don't like, don't assume all the players have your same opinion.
And, if you find this quest THAT annoying, you are not forced to do it more than once to flag for Shroud.

Quests like this are a few, you will find plenty of hack'n'slash quest where you will be able to play the way you like the most

I never once even implied that 'everyone' hates this mechanic. You cant make a single opinion-based statement about the game (or ANY game) and have it universally apply. But there IS a significant portion of the playerbase that DOESNT like this mechanic.

I would like to see an LFM for Dust and NOT avoid it because of the likelihood that I will waste 1/2 hour in a group that ends up failing it. Some of us have limited game time and would like to not waste it because of a silly easy auto-fail. That promote soloing rather than group play. Its an MMO -- its supposed to support group play while ALLOWING solo play, not directly encouraging it with bad design.

[Darkrok]

/notsigned

I was dreading it but I ran the quest last night with my 7 year old son. Once I got him to put away the Jolly Roger Bombs and I stopped mis-targeting my FoD's we completed just fine.

If a 7 year old can do it...well, let's just create a new game show - "Can you play DDO as well as a 7-year-old?"

[Talon_Moonshadow]

This quest is so easy.

1. Enter.
2. Kill everything on the lower level.
3. Jump up to the second level. (requires Monk, FVS, or Air Sorc)
4. Kill everything on second level.
5. Pick up second book.
6. Kill bosses.
7. Pick up first book.
8. Complete.

There are still one or two of us left in the game who actually enjoy playing quests, more or less as intended.

(and somehow still manage to find it easy.)

[Memnir]

let's just create a new game show - "Can you play DDO as well as a 7-year-old?"

Sadly, I think a great many adults I've gamed with would fail this challenge.
7-year-olds' have amazing reflexes.

[Enoach]

I never once even implied that 'everyone' hates this mechanic. You cant make a single opinion-based statement about the game (or ANY game) and have it universally apply. But there IS a significant portion of the playerbase that DOESNT like this mechanic.

I would like to see an LFM for Dust and NOT avoid it because of the likelihood that I will waste 1/2 hour in a group that ends up failing it. Some of us have limited game time and would like to not waste it because of a silly easy auto-fail. That promote soloing rather than group play. Its an MMO -- its supposed to support group play while ALLOWING solo play, not directly encouraging it with bad design.

To be fair you actually did imply this with the use of the phrase no one as posted in the quote. That phrase is a universal statement...

I am sorry that you feel that running this quest solo is more productive then grouping, it is sad to hear that you seem to run into others that won't listen or make this quest less productive for you. This quests difficultly is actually directly related to the ACTIONS taken by WE the players.

The only suggestion that I can come up with is to look for those who wish to accomplish this quest the same way you do - without killing any spiders.

[Darkrok]

Sadly, I think a great many adults I've gamed with would fail this challenge.
7-year-olds' have amazing reflexes.

Unfortunately they also have obsessions with Jolly Roger Bombs.

It all balances out.

[Chai]

This would be one of the exploits i was referring to NOT using.

And once again, I am not looking for advice on how to beat this quest. I can beat this quest easily SOLO. It becomes exponentially easier to fail the more people you add. It simply does not make sense to be forced to solo a quest in order to increase the likelihood of succeeding, due simply to a mechanic that no one actually *LIKES* and simply defends it on the theory that it makes a quest harder. It doesnt actually make the quest HARDER, just more frustrating due to such an easy auto-fail mechanic. You can only control what the other 5 people do so much. The fact that everyone has an easy way to beat the quest only confirms that. When the result of a game mechanic is to encourage soloing just to get around the likelihood of triggering that mechanic, it is a bad mechanic.

Many people actually like that mechanic. It gives the quest come character, and makes it not just another beatdown quest where moar dps = better.

And for those who insist that the mechanic should stay because it is 'so easy to NOT kill the spiders' ... then why does it matter to you if the mechanic is taken away? You can already complete it every time without killing the spiders, so just do that. The quest doesnt change for you, except when you PUG.

We have been running that quest since late 2007, and theres no shortage of people running the shroud. The issue isnt the quest.

We insist the mechanic stay because it makes for a multi-dimensional game, in this quest as well as other quests, where players have to think before they act, and actually have to pay attention to the quest objectives, which are something different than "kill everything in the quest up to the boss then kill the boss."

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Sadly, I think a great many adults I've gamed with would fail this challenge.
7-year-olds' have amazing reflexes.

When the Tower of the Twelve appeared in the Market during the Devil Invasion, the only way I got to see what was up there, past the Mario jump challenge, was to walk over to my daughters computer, after she made it to the top...with relative ease.

[rest]

So do you think they should turn the lights on in Rainbow too?