Let Sleeping Dust Lie

[varusso]

OK, just failed this quest AGAIN. Anyone want to guess how? Yup. Someone killed the spiders.
Auto-fail mechanics like this make a quest SUCK.
I dont mind having the quest be challenging (its not). I dont mind having to run around all over the place looking for random-located items and bosses (boring but meh). What I DO mind is a game mechanic that can screw us well into the quest.

The most common tactic for this quest:
Part 1:
Kill everything and leave the journal alone till everything is dead. Works great, you can just wail on whatever you see, and clear the halls.
Part 2: Pick up the journal and run around some more after you kill the boss and get the key. Finger the ogres or beat em down with a stick, ignore the spiders and just eat their damage.
(Yes, I know there are certain exploits that you can use to bypass all of this, but thats something that needs to be fixed, not encouraged).

Now here is where the problem exists.
Mis-clicked/targeted attack can kill the spiders
Glancing/Cleave blows can hit (and sometimes kill) the spiders.
Guard effects can kill the spiders (Disintegrate Guard anyone?).
PM Death Aura can kill the spiders.
Any AOE-effect can kill the spiders.
Nub-tard who doesnt listen/doesnt get it, or closet griefer can kill the spiders.

All of these result in a failed quest, and accidentally killing (or intentionally for the griefer) 5 spiders is EASY.
Sure, dont do this or that blah blah. Everyone knows it still happens...and it happens enough to be extremely frustrating, especially if you have already been stumbling around in there for a while (or god forbid you got to the END) and it happens.

So, instead of an auto-fail, how about this.
Reduce the XP of the quest significantly. Let's say by half, for a starting point. Make the spiders an optional, and dump all of that XP into it. Groups do this quest for 3 reasons: XP, flagging, getting another piece of pie.
EDIT: svinja suggested also putting the Blank ingredient(s) in a chest you get for not killing 5 spiders as an optional.
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...5&postcount=32

Groups who do it for XP will still strive to NOT kill the spiders, but if it happens, they still get to at least complete without completely wasting their time -- or choose to recall out, reform, and do it again right -- as we are FORCED to do now.

Players who are in it to flag/get pie may or may not strive to save the spiders. I think most would, unless they are already overlvl or did the quest too much to get XP. They would still get to complete and get their goal without wasting all the invested time.

I recall a while back, seeing a dev post that they did not like the autofail mechanics in quests either, and were looking at ways to remove it, while still keeping the 'theme' of quests. Please consider this one.

And while you are at it, do the same thing in Book Binder. Getting tired of the NPCs I am trying to rescue zerging out of the room, hitting another trap and dying, or running into a corner, trying to tackle half the room while I am still walking through the door, and dying.

EDIT 2: Since it is obvious by some responses that many folks are not reading the entire thread, only responding to this post (not that i blame you, given its current length):
I appreciate the folks who are legitimately trying to help by offering advice on how to beat this quest. Thanks, but that is not the point of the post. I KNOW how to beat the quest, and can do so with relative ease while SOLOING the quest. The problem is with the mechanic, which makes it more likely to fail, the more people you add, just due to mistakes, communication problems (including language barriers), griefing, and other game mechanics which make it easier to fail it. The intent here is NOT to seek advice on how to make the run more successful. I already know how to do that. The intent is to petition for a removal of the ridiculously easy auto-fail mechanic, while still retaining enough incentive for most parties to still want to TRY and complete it the 'right' way. It would allow players who like the mechanic to still run it the way they like it, while removing a horrible penalty that can be easily triggered even at the very end of the quest, and no option but to do the ENTIRE quest over again. This is a horrible waste of time, and only encourages solo over group play, or avoidance of PUGs. Unlike wipes, an auto-fail is a completely dead quest. You cant hold the instance open and re-enter. You cannot recover from a fail; you can only start over from the beginning, losing all of the time and resources you invested.

Folks who support keeping this mechanic are mostly the ones who already have no trouble completing it (mostly soloing or in trusted groups). If you have no trouble completing it, then the penalty doesnt even apply to you in the first place. Your 'thrill of danger' at a possible fail isnt real, and likely has not been for some time. You are already running it at low - to - no risk. Changing the mechanic really does not affect you. It only affects everyone ELSE that you seem to think should be required to trudge through it in this manner, simply because we had to do it. I personally find that a poor reason to avoid a change.

[Kushiel]

Auto-Fail with rediculously low trigger points is horrible. The players *time* should somehow be respected greater.

Reasonable sounding suggestions by the OP.

--

In addition we should get a huge chunk of additional optional XP at the end of East Threnal 3 by having an choice to turn on Coyle and kill him ourselves.

--

[t0r012]

It is one of the few challenging objectives left, I loath to see it go away.

honestly though if you/your party can't keep from killing a mob it isn't the quests fault.

[Narmolanya]

I don't like the idea of making it easier. Yeah it's very annoying if you have someone in the group that dosnt listen or whatever and in that scenario the quest will fail quick.

Since this quest came out I have only been in groups that have failed it maybe five or six times. It's not really that had to do it's just hard when someone dosnt listen and keeps killing the spiders. Slow down turn on auto attack and choose your target carefully or finger the orges to death, quick and easy. I find hunting for the second journal more annoying than the spiders personally.

[LoveNeverFails]

It is one of the few challenging objectives left, I loath to see it go away.

honestly though if you/your party can't keep from killing a mob it isn't the quests fault.

this. I've run this quest at least 20 times, and actually never failed it.

[varusso]

I believe i specifically said its not hard/challenging to do this quest. But there are too many silly things that can get the spiders killed, even at the very end. Its a bad mechanic. Anyone that claims they have never failed this quest has never pugged it. Or been with someone new to the quest who didnt get it. The autofail doesnt make it 'harder'. It makes it incredibly frustrating.

I could solo this quest blindfolded. I would like to not HAVE to solo the quest or only run with ppl I know for fear of failing it.

[NinjaNeed]

/ NOT signed.

Yes this quest is annoying, but it is the way it is. It is one of the toughest parts of the quest, NOT killing the spiders. My main is a very high dps 2nd life barb, one swing with my lit 2 Falcion can accidentally kill 4 or 5 spiders. I hate this quest! It is one of only 2 Vale quests I can not solo (other being rainbow). But that is why I love it!

Most quests involve simple dps'ing a mob down before he can kill you, this one offers an interesting, if somewhat annoying, twist. DDO should be designed to give quests like this instead of simply seeing if we can kill a mob before it can kill us.

I personally want MORE quests like this. And love the new expansion packs due to their diversity (meaning final boss fights - a puzzle in the middle of the fight with adds spawning and spoiling the puzzle (monastery style!) and a wired giant thing immune to attacks until it damages weird things you need to hide behind.).

[morticianjohn]

I like the quest even though I really can't or won't PUG it anymore. 0 for 6 in pug groups on this so I decided to solo it from now on. Still I appreciate it's place in the game and am fine with 1-2 quests being this way

[jillie]

we should get a huge chunk of additional optional XP at the end of East Threnal 3 by having an choice to turn on Coyle and kill him ourselves.

/signed!!!!!!

[flynnjsw]

1. Don't run with people that don't listen
2. Don't wear guards
3. Don't use two-handed weapons
4. ????
5. Profit

[Lithic]

It really isn't hard to avoid killing spiders. One trick is to run it on hard as they have significantly more HP (and DR?) and wont be one shotted by the assasin rogue (guilty! heh).

Another is to send your highest sneaker near the spiders and sneak away. The mobs might hear, but only the spiders will follow very far, and then the rest of the party can zoom in and destroy whats left.

If thats too slow for you, then you just need to learn to zerg like a scalpel, not zerg like a bulldozer.

I do agree that there should be decent bonuses for auto-fail conditions. East THrenal 3 for example should be worth 20k on norm for the pain it is! heh.

[Kushiel]

I'll agree that "protect the npc" type quests have a place in the scope of the world, and that they could be fun (or at least not as frustrating).

Brawnpits - thankfully has a goodly chunk of HP, dishes out a little incidental damage to the foes on the walk back to the wagon that is helpful, can be buffed up and healed as required... and there are good break-points between skirmishes where the party can regroup and recover while examining Brawnpits' condition.

Slavers of The Shrieking Mines - the monkey-men are low CON/HP idiots who die when sneezed on. They are mixed in with a kind that looks disturbingly similar that you can kill. But, thankfully, you get an almost enjoyable number of them to have fall along the way before failure.

Coyle. Ah Coyle - he has all the strength and fortitude of a single-ply sheet of toilet paper, soaking wet. That's while being buffed up and babysat by an attentive healer.

The Cannith Crystal - don't sneeze on it, it will break.

The Crystals to be broken in Lordsmarch Bank - take a serious sustained beating before finally shattering. The Mindsunder crystal at the end of Miseries Peak seems to be somewhere in the middle.

Probably some others I'm not thinking of right away. But, with the spiders, they are too few before failure. The failure can happen suddenly after sinking a lot of time into finally getting to the boss (RW paying customer time) with then nothing to show for it. It can be griefed. The spiders have Coyle-like AC/HP. It could be better. I'm not against "Hard" quests - I'd just like to see the condition for an absolute/unrecoverable fail take place moments after having started the attempt... not potentially hour(s).

Going forward if there are other introduced "protect the npc" type quests, that could be enjoyable if crafted in such a way that the players have more influence over the way the encounter plays out.

[Beld]

Intim the spiders onto a melee type (easiest) and let the rest of the group pound the ogres or have the tank run in and get aggro (harder) and let the rest of the group pound the ogres (when I say pound, I mean finger/PK/destruct).

Alternately, if you are a caster heavy group, FtS the spiders and then kill the ogres. This also works very well in the end fight. Have the caster(s) FtS the spiders and the tank/melee pull everything else behind the wall.

If you don't kill any spiders, but kill everything else, there are two extra chests (one for not killing ANY spiders and one for killing EVERYTHING else).

If you get someone griefing, recall, reform and put on your list, simple (they will be hard to miss, as they will be the one with all the spider kills).

Wail/Implosion/THF/S&B (when attacking) are not good tactics in this quest because of the confined space and the precision required, but, the answer is to improve the tactics/spell selection necessary, not nerf another quest with the easy button because some don't like the mechanic.

As some have posted above, this quest is actually MUCH easier on hard/elite because the spiders don't get killed nearly as easily.

[phalaeo]

They should maybe give the spideys more HP or a higher AC on Normal to give a little lee-way.

[Standal]

I'm not going to /sign or /not sign this, but I doubt that 5% of PUGs would even consider attempting a save the spiders optional. Even if you made the optional worth 90% of the XP, the pie and flag is what's valuable. There's plenty of level 15-17 XP in the game now, so I wouldn't put up with the "don't kill the spiders" BS if I didn't have to. Just get me my share of a signet stone and flag.

I hate the quest, hate the spiders. Anybody wanna run it now? Seriously, I need the pie.

[fluffybunnywilson]

If it gave me an extra shot at a funk, I'd kill every ogre in the quest and not spill a single drop of spider blood just so that I could run that quest fewer times.

[Bargol]

I actually like this quest and run it solo on my sorc or wizard all the time. Its an easy quest and don't think I have ever failed it once. Yes I have been in pugs where a spider or two die, but you discuss it as a group and make the barb with the great axe pike for awhile so you don't fail.

The only protect the npc quest that is the biggest problem is threnal, but even that one has been seriously nerfed to make it easier.

[stille_nacht]

i am ok with some fail conditions, but 5 spiders seems sort of random...

[Mister_Peace]

Easy button, learn to play, in my day we uphill both ways in sleet storm while being eaten by spiders, get off my lawn.

[voxson5]

Its fairly easy to solo this on a melee + healer hire, (lol, easier than some groups actually)


All you need is the shield from the diplomatic impunity quest (the one with the stone prison guard).
Shield of Reflecting

-Run around & clear as normal, kill everything without prejudice, find the journal & wait until all sides are clear before reading it.

-Read journal

-Find & kill Kasi

-Take off your guards & equip anything that boosts your hps & saves (pop a planar gird, umd/clickie stoneskin etc)

-Equip a single handed weapon (I recommend a decent burst khopesh for high crit damage potential, even if you're not proficient) and the reflecting shield

-Use "q" or " backspace" in the main room to find the second journal & the corresponding path & head down to the doorway

Here's the trick:

-Open, run in & block -> wait for spiders to get turned to stone (does happen quite quickly, even with just a 17 DC)

-Kill ogres

-profit!


With a bit of practice you can do this without spider kills & then just turn into the butcher of bakersfield at the last fight.

Things to note:
-Sometimes you'll agro spiders before the ogre see's you, just back away a bit & let the stone proc & run back up & kill

-Single handed weapon (not bastard sword/ DA) means no glancing blows, so you can attack an ogre while a spider is on your back/flank

-There is no need to rush when going for the 2nd journal, taking a bit of time makes life a lot easier later on



I've done this multiple times now <30 minutes per run on a non-capped THF spec'ed WF pally, guildmate has done this with a capped 28 point dwarf THF fighter.

Let the funk farm commence!