Pale master forms - are they supposed to be so volatile?

[Nick_RC]

EDIT: This is NOT a request for an easy button just a clarification of whether it is supposed to be doing just this much damage.

Quick question for any devs wandering by.

The palemaster forms since the change was made to incoming light damage have become very volatile while questing. Im not necessarily against it(Im definately in the make the game harder camp) but I cant help but feel that this was not the intention for the prestige. Everything about it screams at me 'hard as nails undead mage...' until light damage is involved.

-Vampire form is a liabilty in any quest where medium + light damage is involved.
-Wraith/lich form is less of a rollercoaster ride but still is prone to many 'dings' if the palemaster is first into the room and the first action sequence of any divine trash is searing light.

I dodge pretty well, exploit terrain to my advantage and know all the manoueverability tricks in the book... and whilst leveling up my PM I died on numerous occasions to incoming light damage - many times more than I normally die whilst leveling - more of a 3/4 to 1 ratio. One thing I do know is that there is alot more light damage being thrown around than I was previously aware of. I used to just shrug it off like everyone else but on a palemaster you become painfully aware of it when ur full hp bar goes to 1/3rd or slivered.

A few standout examples: My character was a melee/DoT build to get a quick wizard life and have some fun - 12 Wiz/7ftr/1barb. Had alot more hp than most caster would have - 10th life at the time with 2 barb past lives in the mix.

Siegebreaker normal at level 14: Hit for 402 points of light damage from one of the kobold sappers sunburst effect things. (Vamp)
OOB hard at level 14 solo : hit for 208 points of searing light damage (vamp)
Running with the devils: Dont even ask I had to switch out of form for most of the quest until a zerging fvs joined the group who fortunately handled the brunt of the agro.

Was this ever tested or was it more of a hypthetical 'hey this would be in theme' change? Im all for a class having an achilles heal...but the achilles heal comes in **** near every quest in the game.

N

[maddmatt70]

I am going to disagree with you Nick; and furthermore, I think more prestige enhancements should have these sorts of minuses or have their minuses increased. The Frenzied Berserker damage taken should be doubled damage that it is. A kensai should take greater penalties when using weapons that are not their favored weapon. The warchanter should have their spell points decreased. The radiant servant should have some sort of penalty,etc. This game has too many easy buttons. Some flavor would go a long ways towards enriching the game. Pen and paper does a very good job at giving players the opportunity to play characters with faults as well as the heroes that the characters are. Faults make the game more realistic. There should not just be one min max answer to everything that is really very boring.

[Cyr]

I think penalties inherent in certain PrE's is not a bad idea in theory. However, this particular penalty would hose your character in content with lots of light damage. Just imagine if Savant PrE's instead of having negative caster levels for opposite elements instead took double damage...ice savant would go from awesome to truly horrible.

This sort of double damage thing really does pose the risk of making builds suffering from it near pointless to use in content that features it heavily. That is a dangerous form of design. As the undead forms already carry a heavy penalty in no healing or reconstructing it's not like they don't have a draw back...

[Nick_RC]

I am going to disagree with you Nick; and furthermore, I think more prestige enhancements should have these sorts of minuses or have their minuses increased. The Frenzied Berserker damage taken should be doubled damage that it is. A kensai should take greater penalties when using weapons that are not their favored weapon. The warchanter should have their spell points decreased. The radiant servant should have some sort of penalty,etc. This game has too many easy buttons. Some flavor would go a long ways towards enriching the game. Pen and paper does a very good job at giving players the opportunity to play characters with faults as well as the heroes that the characters are. Faults make the game more realistic. There should not just be one min max answer to everything that is really very boring.

Yeah man I can go with this too - I would just rather it be balanced to what the other classes get. I cant see any of the other prestiges getting one really weak point like this. Savant get negatives on their opposite school but its sorta meh. Id rather see what you suggest - but at the moment from what I can see palemaster is one of the few if not only prestige that has serious drawbacks.

N

Edit: Have you leveled up a PM post change norg? If you havnt I suggest you take one for a spin - Im not the type for asking for an easy button.

[Emili]

...

I could not have told my feelings on such matter any better than you had stated.

[Lithic]

Just be lucky that sunburst on a PC vampire forms isnt the equivalent of "Power Word Kill Without A Spell Penetration Check, Suck On That PCs!", as it should be. I think sunburst does 9999 damage to vamps in the orchard. That reminds me, I need to use my sunburst clickies on my rad 2s when I go back there. Always forget.

[sweez]

What I don't get is this (correct me if I'm wrong):

Lich/wraith mobs - take no additional light dmg
Vampire mobs - take x2 light dmg (or is it x1.5?)

PM lich/wraith shroud - takes x2 light dmg
PM vampire shroud - takes x4 light dmg (at least if the text is right)

...doesn't make much sense, does it?

I've just leveled a TR PM to 20, and yea I've run into the same problems as you nick - mostly in Siegebreaker (hits of 380 on norm in vamp form) and Running w/devils, but also in other quests like Relic sov. past (spams of 170 pt searing lights), Maraud the mines, etc.

On one hand, I guess it made me a better twitch player heh, but on the other hand... there's absolutely no way I'm going vamp form next life - I'm taking mental toughness and then swapping it out at 18 (shoulda done that this life but meh too lazy and kinda wanted to try vamp, plus i hate perma FF). Sure, "easy button" is the buzzword right now, but whats *really* problematic here is the balance between two forms, becoming disproportionate if you're willing to not be lazy enough to do a feat swap at 18: wraith gives you concealment and x2 light dmg, while vamp gets you x4 light dmg (ouch) and +2 enchantment (why would you use that before amrath/epics, where you'll have lich form anyway?).

(last part assuming a regular PM wiz, not a mutt like your build )

Unless vamp form is aimed only at hybrid builds... which I doubt

[Nick_RC]

I could not have told my feelings on such matter any better than you had stated.

Have you leveled up a PM since it was updated? Once you have, and realise just how much of a LIABILTY (not just a penalty but an actual liability - something you have spent enhancements and feats getting) it is in certain quests get back to me. It doesnt feel like any other penalty that any other prestige gets. If ur gonna do something like this to a prestige do it to them all like norg suggested. If not then IMO its out of sync.

N

[varusso]

PMs are very powerful, if played well. They could use a little balancing. But the 2x and 4x light is just ridiculous. A toon with 200 HP should NOT get 2-shot by searing light in Tear on normal.

Since this change, Vamp has become the new wraith. I picked up mental toughness JUST to get wraith instead of vamp, because I am not going to mess with that absurd 4x damage, based on how ridiculous the 2x already is, when literally every 3rd mob in the game has it. So I had to pick up a feat i dont even want, for a form I didnt want, then swap it out at wiz-18 to get lich and a different feat that i DID want. Thats just bad design.

There is no reason to put a heavy penalty on ANY PRE. You are already paying a cost in feats and AP to get the PRE -- often getting feats and enhancements you otherwise would not want otherwise -- to get that PRE. Theres no reason to throw a screw-you clause into the mix. Some minor penalties (such as the cross-school penalties for savants) and other balancing effects (inability to heal PMs through normal means, such as the mass-heal/cure the cleric/fvs is spamming) are fine.

This is rather like the TV series Smallville. Kryptonite is EVERYWHERE, and Clark loses his powers CONSTANTLY. Kryptonite is supposed to be a RARE thing that Superman has to worry about from time to time. For PMs, our Kryptonite is in nearly every quest, and in multiple locations in those quests. Its just ridiculous.

EDIT: Perhaps an across-the-board 1.2x damage vs fire and light, small resistance to ice (and maybe electric). That would still add the necessity to play a little smarter, but not be broken out of proportion as it is now. And it would make more sense.

[LeLoric]

I haven't levelled one up as mine was already capped when u9 hit but a guildie did and I heard it wasn't very fun.

At cap it's not so bad but theres definitely some issues with mid level quests and searing light.

I've seen other pm's also get one shotted in epic quests and tod from horoths sunburst. The biggest reason here is they don't have insightful reflexes to lower that dmg. Not only do you take half the damage from the save but that halved damage is not multiplied currently. I doubt it's wai but it currently works that way. I got popped with a horoth sunburst the other day at the start because a fs had their laser on and trigerred him while he was up on his perch in the talk scene. The other pm dies from just under 500 points of dmg and I took 120 points of dmg.

[Nick_RC]

This sort of double damage thing really does pose the risk of making builds suffering from it near pointless to use in content that features it heavily. That is a dangerous form of design. As the undead forms already carry a heavy penalty in no healing or reconstructing it's not like they don't have a draw back...

Yup. I think there definately should be some penalty to light but it seems a touch on the high side at the moment.

On one hand, I guess it made me a better twitch player heh, but on the other hand... there's absolutely no way I'm going vamp form next life

Lol good to see another PM post. I found I was using wraith form MORE than I was using Vamp and I was built specifically to take advantage of vampire form. The quests that I did use vampire form in that had light damage I only did so because my character was a big fattie - Multiple trs every piece of loot you could possibly desire(except that **** torc) and punching way out of his weight category so to speak.

Now if I was an undergeared non tr pugger.... forget about it.

This is rather like the TV series Smallville. Kryptonite is EVERYWHERE, and Clark loses his powers CONSTANTLY. Kryptonite is supposed to be a RARE thing that Superman has to worry about from time to time. For PMs, our Kryptonite is in nearly every quest, and in multiple locations in those quests. Its just ridiculous.

Yeah thats a great analogy. Im glad im not the only one who felt like this.

N

[Tinco]

I don't use vamp, but on wraith/lich it actually reminds me that my PM is 'mortal' and that there are reasons to leave undead form at times. I honestly think that PM as a whole is way, way too strong and only an unfortunately unavoidable act of balance because WF wizards were so strong that there was no mechanical reason to play a non-WF wizard anymore. But that ship has sailed long ago and I wouldn't mind another weakness, especially for the vampire form when I already struggle in wraith/lich at times.

[Emili]

Have you leveled up a PM since it was updated? Once you have, and realise just how much of a LIABILTY (not just a penalty but an actual liability - something you have spent enhancements and feats getting) it is in certain quests get back to me. It doesnt feel like any other penalty that any other prestige gets. If ur gonna do something like this to a prestige do it to them all like norg suggested. If not then IMO its out of sync.

N

My PM ... which is a lvl 20 actually has both lich and vamp forms on her... yes I wanted to test it out and purposely took her in "Run with devils" on elite to see her get torn up. Yet, I still played on and completed such in like form... so I could get an understanding of it. Now I will admit from first had perspective I toyed more or less. My initial thought was that seemed a tad overboard ... yet when I stepped back later upon observing I thought maybe just a little?

I had TR'd Rosewood (bard) ... yes I know you're thinking what's that have to do with it?

Well, while I solo'd quite a lot yet when I did group it was mainly with Kaalil (who is a PM). All the same, gave me as such a little more relivance in reguard to actually being there, helping rather than some social aspect... "Karl" watch out the SF clerics know searing light. Results were sometimes he ran not in the form and other times took the chance with such even though we knew of the presense of danger. I believe he had fun with it and even learned a thing or two and I know I had.

Just note... I agree with Norg, I believe there should be more trade offs to all PrEs in scope... that was indeed my reply in the prior post.

[varusso]

I don't use vamp, but on wraith/lich it actually reminds me that my PM is 'mortal' and that there are reasons to leave undead form at times. I honestly think that PM as a whole is way, way too strong and only an unfortunately unavoidable act of balance because WF wizards were so strong that there was no mechanical reason to play a non-WF wizard anymore. But that ship has sailed long ago and I wouldn't mind another weakness, especially for the vampire form when I already struggle in wraith/lich at times.

Now imagine if you were playing your Air Savant, and had to 'drop savant' in order to play 3/4 of the game or risk getting 1- /2-shot. Or you had to drop radiant servant because all undead suddenly did massive damage to you. Or you had to give up ANY of the benefits of ANY PRE on ANY toon, because suddenly a significant portion of the content heavily penalized you while using that PRE. If a PM cant use his undead forms (where most of the advantages of being a PM actually come from) then there is no point in even playing the PM PRE. All of your immunities, self healing, and freebie SLAs revolve around being in-form, as do some of your bonuses to DCs etc.

Telling a PM they should drop form in a quest (which some knob actually told me in tear) is the same as saying dont bother with that PRE. Since a significant portion of content has light spells -- EVEN OTHER UNDEAD????? :boggle: this is just NOT a viable solution to the problem. Turbine overdid it on this one, and they need to revisit it and tone it down (or spread it out a bit as I suggested in the last post).

[Schmoe]

I think penalties inherent in certain PrE's is not a bad idea in theory. However, this particular penalty would hose your character in content with lots of light damage. Just imagine if Savant PrE's instead of having negative caster levels for opposite elements instead took double damage...ice savant would go from awesome to truly horrible.

While I generally agree with those who think a drawback is a good and interesting design choice, you have a very valid point about savants that I hadn't really considered...

[LeLoric]

I don't use vamp, but on wraith/lich it actually reminds me that my PM is 'mortal' and that there are reasons to leave undead form at times. I honestly think that PM as a whole is way, way too strong and only an unfortunately unavoidable act of balance because WF wizards were so strong that there was no mechanical reason to play a non-WF wizard anymore. But that ship has sailed long ago and I wouldn't mind another weakness, especially for the vampire form when I already struggle in wraith/lich at times.

The thing is there is already a built in vulnerability to light dmg as these spells do more to undead anyways. Searing light does 1d8 per 2 levels to non undead but 1d6 per level to undead so it basically almost doubles there. Making pale masters in lich form take almost 4 times the damage from searing light that a non pale master would. Vamp formed pale masters actually take 8 times.

I am not for the easy button here either but no other spell in level 11/12 normal content is doing 200+ points of damage to anyone but a vamp formed pm in any of the desert quests is going to get hit by it.

The upcoming upgraded epic phairlan mirror cloak will help here as it's 30 point resist will actually be 60 on palemasters (120 for vamp form) but thats a ml 20 item and not where its needed mostly wqhich is in levelling up.

I'd suggest a 50% increase for non vamp pm's and a 100% increase for vamp form.

[voodoogroves]

Nick, my big concern before U9 was that this would make "more things possible" but instead pigeonhole people into narrow bands of focused speciality.

What I didn't want is for Wizards and Sorcs to now be 6 basic classes that all "blast with some energy type" + "a small bit of utility" ... with that being force or necrotic for wizards, the 4 elements for sorcs, etc.


Unfortunately, that's kinda the way it looks to be going - you'll smoke 90% of the content and be helpless against some spikey bit.

[RudeIota]

Everything about it screams at me 'hard as nails undead mage...' until light damage is involved.

And until breathing underwater is involved.

[Emili]

And until breathing underwater is involved.

That one still makes me laugh every time she goes for a swim.

[Tirisha]

What I don't get most about it is Undead aren't inherently vulnerable to light damage so it makes no sense at all to give it to the palemaster.