Feedback: Fighter 101 (Work in Progress)

[FordyTwo]

Would you guys say Quick Draw over Bullheaded? It's only a minor amount of extra Will Save boost, so I can see the argument.

[eonfreon]

Looks pretty good.

I just have to question the choice of Bow Strength. Especially at level 14. At that level even adding your Str score won't amount to a lot of damage before it;s time to switch to melee weapon as the Mob closes.

And Bows are not really great at drawing individual Mobs into a fight anyway. It takes a bit of skill to do so, without alerting every other Mob around and defeating the purpose anyway. Even if you do have that skill or you just want to pull the Mobs in a specific direction, you can do that with a bow anyway. The Bow Strength Feat won't add enough damage at a bow's low rate of fire at such a high level as 14 to make much difference.

Now if you guys fix Bow ROF, then that would be a good start. Otherwise a Dwarf is really better off just using a Returning Throwing Axe when he wants to "plink" someone from a distance.

Would you guys say Quick Draw over Bullheaded? It's only a minor amount of extra Will Save boost, so I can see the argument.

Yes, definently Quickdraw over Bullheaded.

[FrozenNova]

Given that it's already a dwarf, with sizable hp boosts, I don't think additional toughness is at all a priority. Moreover, it's just a case of determining what is quite determinedly useless in terms of what it brings to the build. (Looking at you, bow strength).
I'd be tempted to throw quickdraw and sap in there somewhere - both are helpful and add respectively more convenience and utility without much sacrifice.

There's nothing wrong with having intimidate. It is convenient when dealing with piles of trash, or an enemy that won't give up its obsession with the cowardly wizard. There's little chance this build will reach intim dc's suitable for tanking, so I don't think spending feats on it would be worthwhile.

[rest]

Quickdraw > bullhead any day of the week!

[Cyr]

Would you guys say Quick Draw over Bullheaded? It's only a minor amount of extra Will Save boost, so I can see the argument.

Oh yeah.

Bullheaded is not worthwhile on the build you are writting up where most will save effects are basically nullified by prot from evil and freedom of movement.

Quickdraw is a very good feat for a fighter and we are talking a twf here so khopesh should certainly make an appearance as a strong suggestion at least. Toughness mutliple times on a pure fighter is hardly unheard of either.

Oh and bow strength is def. not on my list of preferred feats for this build. Throwers should suffice for the few times you want to use ranged with a melee centric build and if anything you would take the feat for those (str to hit). Bow's main asset was dr bypass against DQ, but crafting let's people make appropriate throwers for that now...nor is that really going to be a new player concern as that is a little bit of twink for level 20 epic runs before she drops back to the platform (all 10-45 seconds of it).

[Asketes]

Would you guys say Quick Draw over Bullheaded? It's only a minor amount of extra Will Save boost, so I can see the argument.

yes

[Junts]

Would you guys say Quick Draw over Bullheaded? It's only a minor amount of extra Will Save boost, so I can see the argument.

I generally dislike save-boost feats in general (besides divine grace), and I definitely think QD is better than bullheaded despite not being a big quickdraw fan.

Most people building 'dps' fighters consider quickdraw an essential feat: it basically saves you 2-3 attack hooks per time you use a boost while actually swinging. Usually, activating a boost costs you 4-5 attacks. With quickdraw, the number is about half that.

[bobbryan2]

Would you guys say Quick Draw over Bullheaded? It's only a minor amount of extra Will Save boost, so I can see the argument.

Bullheaded on a non-intim build?

Why would you not simply do iron will?

Makes no sense.

[LeLoric]

Would you guys say Quick Draw over Bullheaded? It's only a minor amount of extra Will Save boost, so I can see the argument.

For a very new player guide I would actually consider Iron will especially in early game. Fighter will saves are notoriously bad and most new players don't play with people who know where to cast fom or protection from evil. Getting held in early game can often mean death. New players cant afford heroism pots and don't have girds to boost saves either.

Note: I would never recommend this for an experienced end game build but for the intent of this guide I would probably rate it over quick draw because of the lack of defensive abilities and a newer player isn't going to be as concerned about getting faster action boosts off as they are about why do I get held/commanded then killed so much.

[TheDjinnFor]

Note: I would never recommend this for an experienced end game build but for the intent of this guide I would probably rate it over quick draw because of the lack of defensive abilities and a newer player isn't going to be as concerned about getting faster action boosts off as they are about why do I get held/commanded then killed so much.

Well said.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Great effort FordyTwo!

Bow Strength is impossible on a fighter without taking weapon focus ranged and point blank shot feats. A good bet along the same lines would be to take the improved crit ranged feat.

[FordyTwo]

I've updated the template. Thanks to everyone for all the great feedback! Newbie fighters the world over will benefit from our powers combined. (I'll form the head, Abashiiiii!)

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Before people ask, I figure I'd post a THF build along the same lines that you've written this guide. Past level 14, the feats are really about flavor. Feats/enhancements are pretty much up for debate and personal taste.

This Kensei III build gives a good mix of high hit points, high damage and dwarven racial benefits. Its a good solid beginner build as is, that can be tweaked by long time players to suit their playstyle as well. (For example, many veterans go halforc to take advantage of all the strength/damage candy)

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.2
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(20 Fighter) 
Hit Points: 466
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 9
Will: 6

                  Starting          
Abilities        Base Stats         
(32 Point)       (Level 1)          
Strength             18             
Dexterity            14             
Constitution         18             
Intelligence          8             
Wisdom                8             
Charisma              6             

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Dwarven Stability
Feat: (Automatic) Dwarven Stonecutting
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Dwarven Waraxe
Feat: (Automatic) Giant Evasion
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Orc and Goblin Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Poison Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Spell Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Tower Shield Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I


Level 5 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I


Level 7 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Kensei Greataxe Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Trip) I
Enhancement: Fighter Greataxe Specialization I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack II


Level 11 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Kensei Greataxe Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II


Level 13 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Great Cleave
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy III


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost III
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II


Level 17 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Quick Draw
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III


Level 19 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Weapon Alacrity
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I

[game5551]

Reading through, improved trip would be nice, but without any tomes that means starting with a 13 int - yikes!

I was thinking that THF would be more new player friendly, then read this:

When we first began discussing Fighter 101, the topic of what fighter type to make into a template was discussed at length. We didn't want to do Intimitank or AC because of the investment required on loot drops, etc. So, it came down to THF and TWF -- but a THF felt more like a Barbarian 101 template (barbarian SMASH!). [...]

It makes so much sense now

I love the write up; I hope shield, quick draw, and sap/iron will get worked in. It does need some more explanatory write up though. I was going to type a bit per feat, but you TheDjinnFor combined it and very nicely, succinctly typed it up. +1 to you!

A bit on when to start using power attack, and to use a shield/axe combo at least until you get to the market place would be good, as well as a little on tactics. I'll type something up in a few hours when I have time if no one beats me to it...

[game5551]

• (15) Improved Trip

I dont think that works in this build...

[Ralmeth]

Looks mostly good though I have a few suggestions:

1) Toughness isn't a Fighter bonus feat so you can't take it at level 14.
2) Improved trip has a prerequisite of combat expertise, so you won't be able to take this feat.
3) Your guide states that shield mastery is helpful at lower levels, but then you take shield mastery and improved shield mastery at levels 18 and 20? I would think shield mastery at level 3 would be better in place of iron will. Iron will for only +2 to your will saves isn't that great. Improved shield mastery at only +5% damage reduction isn't great either, unless your spending a lot of time in S&B mode as a tank. On a TWF build I wouldn't bother with it.
4) For the extra feats, I would rearrange things and take more toughness as your level 15 and 18 feats. DDO is about DPS and Hit points, so more toughness will definately help a build that's about DPS and has no ability to self-heal.
5) Perhaps at level 20 take oversize TWF for a better to hit in epics.

Here's a revised list that I would recommend:
• (1) Toughness
• (1) Two Weapon Fighting
• (2) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
• (3) Shield Mastery
• (4) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Remember: At level 4, put an ability point into DEX to meet the requirements for Improved Two Weapon Fighting at level 6.
• (6) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
• (6) Stunning Blow
• (8) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
• (9) Power Attack
• (10) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
• (12) Greater Two Weapon Fighting (use the Fighter bonus feat for this)
• (12) Toughness
• (14) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
• (15) Toughness
• (16) Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
• (18) Quick Draw
• (18) Toughness
• (20) Oversize Two Weapon Fighting (for better to hit in epics)

Hope that helps

[Alektronic]

I'll add in a mention of dwarf axes, as that's a very good suggestion!

When we first began discussing Fighter 101, the topic of what fighter type to make into a template was discussed at length. We didn't want to do Intimitank or AC because of the investment required on loot drops, etc. So, it came down to THF and TWF -- but a THF felt more like a Barbarian 101 template (barbarian SMASH!).

...

I dunno if it's too late for this suggestion, but wouldn't ranger 101 be a better place to put a TWF? Especially with the aversion to ranged builds, I can't imagine what else you'd offer to NKOTB for a ranger 101 template.

On the more constructive side, have you considered making a dwarven strategist SB/THF offtank build for a template? It's quite more tactical than the THF barb, in both build and playstyle. I just threw this build together to illustrate:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page
Dwarven Strategist
Level 20 Neutral Good Dwarf Male
(20 Fighter) 
Hit Points: 326
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 7
Will: 5
                Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    21
Dexterity            12                    12
Constitution         15                    15
Intelligence         13                    13
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             10                    10
                Starting          
               Base Skills        
Skills           (Level 1)          
Balance               3             
Bluff                 0             
Concentration         2             
Diplomacy             0             
Disable Device        n/a           
Haggle                0             
Heal                 -1             
Hide                  1             
Intimidate            4             
Jump                  3             
Listen               -1             
Move Silently         1             
Open Lock             n/a           
Perform               n/a           
Repair                1             
Search                1             
Spot                 -1             
Swim                  3             
Tumble                2             
Use Magic Device      1             
 
Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting
 
Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Shield Mastery
 
Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
 
Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
 
Level 5 (Fighter)
 
Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow
 
Level 7 (Fighter)
 
Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
 
Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
 
Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
 
Level 11 (Fighter)
 
Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
 
Level 13 (Fighter)
 
Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise
 
Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
 
Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Trip
 
Level 17 (Fighter)
 
Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
 
Level 19 (Fighter)
 
Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Sap

EDIT: This build, I think, caters to the "fighter". It doesn't have the raw power of the barbarian. It builds AC in a way that should be viable to midlevels with little investment, and useful end-game with the right loot. It also offers the classic combat strategy feats that are fun and different than the hack-and-slash styles of THF (barb 101) and TWF (ranger 101 hopefully =p). Sure, the build above can be tweaked more, but just wanted to demonstrate that this kind of build should viable/class-specific/newbie-friendly.

EDIT2: Skill raises in balance, intim, and UMD.

[Scraap]

If you intend it to be a generalist all-around-er for introducing new players to multiple styles, I might suggest dropping iron will for shield bash at 3.

SB provides a 20% offhand while wearing a shield during those levels when that'll get you by AC wise. TWF provides a 40% offhand chance, granted, however, it's still at a -4 / -4 to-hit penalty, which in a d20 system translates to a -20% penalty to both on it's own, so that pretty much breaks even.

One addendum I will note though, is that if you've a light offhand weapon, like a dagger, that penalty goes down to -2/-2, or 10% loss per, and as you move up in levels, both stats and to-hit bonus items mitigates negatives like that considerably.

On the purely positive side, I'll note that that 6 cha was a good choice. Intim builds pretty much require being right at the front these days. Not something you want to force on someone just learning a quest.

(Oh, and not to be overly pedantic, but it's Dwarven. Dwarveeeen! *froths at the mouth* )

[Asketes]

NEW UPDATES:

Feats:

Improved trip: You have this in the feat list, but you don't have the prerequisite Combat Expertise or the 13 int for it.

Iron Will: Your basic fighter layout (the one you are creating, for new players) is not designed to have high saves. Focus on DPS and Hitpoints.

Shield Mastery: I doubt most will be using this to it's full advantage. Telling someone to use a feat then get rid of it later doesn't seem plausible to me.. It gives the wrong idea that shields are useful.

FEEDBACK:

Overall, the guide is improving. Nicely done FordyTwo

[pasterqb]

Here's a revised list that I would recommend:
• (1) Toughness
• (1) Two Weapon Fighting
• (2) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
• (3) Shield Mastery
• (4) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Remember: At level 4, put an ability point into DEX to meet the requirements for Improved Two Weapon Fighting at level 6.
• (6) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
• (6) Stunning Blow
• (8) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
• (9) Power Attack
• (10) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
• (12) Greater Two Weapon Fighting (use the Fighter bonus feat for this)
• (12) Toughness
• (14) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
• (15) Toughness
• (16) Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
• (18) Quick Draw
• (18) Toughness
• (20) Oversize Two Weapon Fighting (for better to hit in epics)

Hope that helps

This /signed

Although personally i would swap out Shield Mastery for another toughness but mainly because i prefer having permanent or mostly permanent benefit from feats instead of getting benefit 1% or 10% of the time.