Feedback: Fighter 101 (Work in Progress)

[FordyTwo]

Greetings! We've got another Work-in-Progress 101 guide to share, and this time it's the TWF 101 template for our Fighter 101 guide.

Some important notes:

• We've got the same "Important Abilities," "Secondary Abilities," etc sections as Sorcerer 101, but for this feedback session we want to hone the provided template.
• This is a 28 point newbie build.
• Currently, the suggested Ability Point Buy includes a 6 CHA. Do you feel like that's not a good idea? Let us know, and please feel free to include suggestions.
• The Enhancement section isn't a full load-out. Our goal here is to give some useful suggestions that will lead a newbie into useful enhancement lines later on -- without having to tell them, and overload their brain-matter.

Edit:

Overhauled the Feats section and added the Feats Explanation section after TheDjinnFor made that great post.

Thanks goes to Cam_Neely, bobbryan2, coolpenguin410, Asketes, LeLoric, TheDjinnFor, and Ralmeth!
-------------------------------------------------------

Template: Two Weapon Dwarf Fighter

This template can be used as a guide to building a stout-and-strong dual-wielding dwarf fighter. Feel free to follow it however much or little you like; everyone has their own DDO play style!

Ability Point Buy

• Strength --------16
• Dexterity -------16
• Constitution ---16
• Intelligence ----10
• Wisdom --------8
• Charisma -------6

• Ability Point Buy: At level 4, put 1 Ability Point into DEX. Then, at every fourth level beyond that, put all Ability Points into Strength (STR).

Skills

This fighter build won't have a massive pile of skill points to work with because of the Intelligence (INT) score. Don't worry; this two-weapon fighter (TWF) build is more about feats.

At character creation, invest a few skill points into Balance, Jump, and at least one rank of Tumble. Concentrate on maintaining a high Balance skill, but only train 10 ranks of Jump – spells can temporarily raise this skill in party situations, where it really matters.

Feats

Tip! Dwarfs have an innate bonus when using *gasp* dwarf axes. Because these are slashing weapons, this feat list focuses on improving capability with slashing. Prioritize dwarf axes (if you want) for a leg-up on your opponents.

• (1) Toughness
• (1) Two Weapon Fighting
• (2) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
• (3) Shield Mastery
• (4) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Remember: At level 4, put an ability point into DEX to meet the requirements for Improved Two Weapon Fighting at level 6.
• (6) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
• (6) Stunning Blow
• (8) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
• (9) Power Attack
• (10) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
• (12) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
• (12) Toughness
• (14) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
• (15) Toughness
• (16) Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
• (18) Quick Draw
• (18) Toughness
• (20) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting

Feat Explanation

Below are good utility feats. Toughness – largely considered an essential feat for any class -- boosts your Hit Points (HP) and unlocks additional HP-boosting enhancements. Quick Draw allows faster swapping of weapons and armor, but it also reduces the delay between special boost abilities (see Enhancements, below). Shield Mastery can be a useful feat to turtle up with when the going gets rough, especially at lower levels.

• Toughness (Level 1 & 14)
• Shield Mastery (Level 18)
• Quick Draw (Level 18)

These feats enhance fighting ability when holding a weapon in each hand; you'll be more accurate and swing more often during combat.

• Two Weapon Fighting (Level 1)
• Improved Two Weapon Fighting (Level 6)
• Greater Two Weapon Fighting (Level 12)

These feats help you deal more damage! Power Attack trades accuracy for damage (don't worry, you'll hit plenty with the above feats added) and Improved Critical doubles the chance of getting a critical hit.

• Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons (Level 8)
• Power Attack (Level 9)

A fighter is a master of weapons, and these feats improve both your accuracy and damage potential with slashing weapons, such as short swords and axes. Moreover, these feats enable the Kensei Prestige Enhancement class (see Enhancements, below), a powerful class-boost for the two weapon fighter.

• Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons (Level 2)
• Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons (Level 4)
• Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons (Level 10)
• Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons (Level 12)
• Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons (Level 16)

Stunning Blow, Sunder and Trip are used during combat and have specific uses. A master fighter uses all the tools at their disposal. Note that some of the tougher boss creatures in DDO resist these active abilities, no matter how good a character is at using them.

• Stunning Blow (Level 6)
• Sunder (Fighter class feat)
• Trip (Fighter class Feat)

Enhancements

Because enhancements can be changed in-game for a small fee, feel free to experiment with your choices.

For example, this dwarf two-weapon fighter has a -1 to Will Saves because of his 8 Wisdom – so I always grab the Dwarf: Spell Defense enhancement to counter-act this weakness. Additionally, grabbing any "Toughness" enhancements is highly recommended.

Sample two-weapon dwarf fighter enhancements:

• Dwarf: Spell Defense
• Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
• Fighter Toughness
• Fighter Haste Boost I
• Fighter Strength I
• Fighter Critical Accuracy
• Dwarven Constitution
• Racial Toughness I

Remember, enhancements aren't permanent choices, so experiment and find out what works best for you!

----------------------------------------

[ZeroTakenaka]

Isn't resilience trade half damage for like +5 to saves? I wouldn't take it.

[Cyr]

I think these 101 guides would be dramatically improved if explanations were put in to expand upon thoughts in a more advanced manner. Just because we are dealing with new players here we don't have to assume that they can not understand something that might be important later...in this case dex score of 16 improved to 17 assumes no +1 tome will be available. This would be a perfect place to explain how tomes apply to feat pre-reqs.

As for the feats get rid of...
slicing blow
improved sunder
resilence as this is a really poor feat choice

And the 6 charisma is tied to a non-intim build so good choice.

[Cam_Neely]

solid. Might want to put in a comment about dwarven axes (and axes in general) being useful for a dwarf.

Is the plan to updated the ingame pre programed paths soon? They are very ****ty and a bad experience for most new players.
*EDIT* see here to discuss this more http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=322846

[bobbryan2]

Cleave on a TWF build? Nah.
Resiliance? Nah.
Slicing Blow is a stretch.

Three more tougnesses would be exceedingly more useful for this build. Not that there are not better choices... just putting it in perspective.

But I'm just iffy in general about making a TWF for newbies. Already you're left with the choice of depending on a tome or wasting strength points on dex. This build would be much better off with keeping only a 15 dex and using a +2 tome... but then it wouldn't be newbie friendly anymore.

I'd just as soon put a newbie guide as a THF fighter.

6 charisma is fine. You can make fine builds with more... but it's not necessary.

You completely ignore intimidate. Especially on a newbie build this may be a mistake. They're not going to have greensteel and other great DPS gear to always be able to hold aggro when they need to. A moderate intimidate score might alleviate some of those issues. But then you run into the problem of skill points... which is mainly a problem because of the TWF aspect of the build.

[bobbryan2]

I think these 101 guides would be dramatically improved if explanations were put in to expand upon thoughts in a more advanced manner. Just because we are dealing with new players here we don't have to assume that they can not understand something that might be important later...in this case dex score of 16 improved to 17 assumes no +1 tome will be available. This would be a perfect place to explain how tomes apply to feat pre-reqs.

As for the feats get rid of...
slicing blow
improved sunder
resilence as this is a really poor feat choice

And the 6 charisma is tied to a non-intim build so good choice.

I would actually leave the improved sunder in on some newbie builds. The DC is pretty workable, especially with dwarven tactics (which this build should take), and lowering AC on tougher enemies will be more helpful to players that may not have immediate access to destruction/improved destruction weaponry.

Not to mention.. if he ever pulls some marilith chain, the DC just gets fun.

[Junts]

Cleave on a TWF build? Nah.
Resiliance? Nah.
Slicing Blow is a stretch.

Three more tougnesses would be exceedingly more useful for this build. Not that there are not better choices... just putting it in perspective.

But I'm just iffy in general about making a TWF for newbies. Already you're left with the choice of depending on a tome or wasting strength points on dex. This build would be much better off with keeping only a 15 dex and using a +2 tome... but then it wouldn't be newbie friendly anymore.

I'd just as soon put a newbie guide as a THF fighter.

6 charisma is fine. You can make fine builds with more... but it's not necessary.

You completely ignore intimidate. Especially on a newbie build this may be a mistake. They're not going to have greensteel and other great DPS gear to always be able to hold aggro when they need to. A moderate intimidate score might alleviate some of those issues. But then you run into the problem of skill points... which is mainly a problem because of the TWF aspect of the build.

I'd drop these for shield mastery and possibly khopesh - the damage reduction from a shield could be pretty useful to a new player at least stiuationally, for surviving and running away, and if they were a human build instead they could have a 2nd skill point for intimidate to have that option too.

[FordyTwo]

I'll add in a mention of dwarf axes, as that's a very good suggestion!

When we first began discussing Fighter 101, the topic of what fighter type to make into a template was discussed at length. We didn't want to do Intimitank or AC because of the investment required on loot drops, etc. So, it came down to THF and TWF -- but a THF felt more like a Barbarian 101 template (barbarian SMASH!).

No matter what type of fighter we go with (AC, THF, TWF, etc) there's going to be a deficiency somewhere. Newbie players don't start with 32pt builds, tomes, or pretty much any other leg-up that intermediate or veteran players have -- and that's okay. We just want them to have a straight-forward idea of how (and where) to begin their DDO experience.

So, TWF was our choice because A) dual-wielding is fun, B) low-to-no Intimidate means less tactics juggling early-on and C) we didn't want to steal barbarian mojo later on in Barbarian 101.

As for the feat discussions -- I'm all for changing up the template's feats, but we need suggestions on what to replace them with. We've got two instances of Toughness on that list, and admittedly we could add more. Thoughts?

Keep the suggestions coming! I can't get to all of them at once, but I promise to look over each post.

[red_cardinal]

The only way you can help newbies to feel comfortable playing this game is to finally revise and FIX all CLASS PATHS! And that does mean that for every class all PrEs are fully implemented so that the chosen path actually matches the description. These 101 documents aren't a good start IMHO - they are more an intro to multiclassing and/or custom character creation.

[coolpenguin410]

TWF and intim on the same build isn't very newbie friendly. It takes a good familiarity with the game to know when to use that. If the guide was an AC build it'd be another story, but I suspect this guide aims at a pure DPS/utility build rather than intim.

I agree to leave off Cleave, Resilence and Slicing Blow. Even with it's recent upgrade of doing Con damge, Slicing Blow doesn't offer much. The other two don't do well on many builds at all.

Might I suggest moving around some feats to free up more "level" feats to take things like the save bonus feats? An additional toughness is not a bad choice.

Consider Combat Expertise if only for Improved Trip. Likely this will be a Kensai build that benefits from having a lot of tactical feats. Plus it gives the player something to do if they get bored just holding down their attack button.

[Cam_Neely]

No matter what type of fighter we go with (AC, THF, TWF, etc) there's going to be a deficiency somewhere. Newbie players don't start with 32pt builds, tomes, or pretty much any other leg-up that intermediate or veteran players have -- and that's okay. We just want them to have a straight-forward idea of how (and where) to begin their DDO experience.

I agree with this. No need to put in details about tomes ect, as this is just a very basic vanilla post. There are many other sources that explain tomes, and other details should the new player want to learn them. Keep this as basic as possible imo as a good one first shot for people. No need to overly complicate it.

GO BRUINS!

[Asketes]

Feat Suggestions:

Cleave NEVER belongs on a TWF unless they are barb b/c it's a prerequisite for frenzied berzerker.
Reason: Cleave ONLY affects the main hand, so it has no synergy with twf.

Resiliance not advisable, take an extra toughness feat.
Reason: If i recall correctly, this cannot be active WITH power attack.

Improved sunder Not advisable, take an extra toughness feat.
Reason: People have an easy enough time hitting things already.

Slicing Blow Not advisable, take an extra toughness feat.
Reason: The cooldown for this, as well as the mediocre at best damage isn't worth the feat slot.

Oversized Two Weapon fighting Not advisable, take an extra toughness feat.
Reason: "Neat" at low levels, but definitely NOT needed past level 12. You are a fighter, your high strength and feats allow you to have a solid ATK bonus already..

[FordyTwo]

The only way you can help newbies to feel comfortable playing this game is to finally revise and FIX all CLASS PATHS! And that does mean that for every class all PrEs are fully implemented so that the chosen path actually matches the description. These 101 documents aren't a good start IMHO - they are more an intro to multiclassing and/or custom character creation.

This particular thread is for the web content feedback on our upcoming Fighter 101 guide. For feedback and suggestions concerning in-game systems, please see Gameplay & Systems feedback.

[Junts]

I'll add in a mention of dwarf axes, as that's a very good suggestion!

When we first began discussing Fighter 101, the topic of what fighter type to make into a template was discussed at length. We didn't want to do Intimitank or AC because of the investment required on loot drops, etc. So, it came down to THF and TWF -- but a THF felt more like a Barbarian 101 template (barbarian SMASH!).

No matter what type of fighter we go with (AC, THF, TWF, etc) there's going to be a deficiency somewhere. Newbie players don't start with 32pt builds, tomes, or pretty much any other leg-up that intermediate or veteran players have -- and that's okay. We just want them to have a straight-forward idea of how (and where) to begin their DDO experience.

So, TWF was our choice because A) dual-wielding is fun, B) low-to-no Intimidate means less tactics juggling early-on and C) we didn't want to steal barbarian mojo later on in Barbarian 101.

As for the feat discussions -- I'm all for changing up the template's feats, but we need suggestions on what to replace them with. We've got two instances of Toughness on that list, and admittedly we could add more. Thoughts?

Keep the suggestions coming! I can't get to all of them at once, but I promise to look over each post.

I'd fit in shield mastery at lower levels.

two-weapon fighting really sucks before improved twf and its still sometimes shaky prior to greater twf. For a new player with a good dex (like this for twf), its still possible to get a moderately useful armor class in the lv 3-9 range. There are probably situations where a new player, whos weapons wont be so good and may have hit issues etc, will want to use a shield for better defense. the shield mastery feat could support that, and still be situationally useful at higher levels when the fighter needs to survive with a mob on him while the party's dealing with some other problem (psuedo-tanking).

Quick Draw is a very popular feat with Kensei players because it cuts down on the animation delay of both haste boost and power surge. I would include this feat at some point, as most players who use it regard it as an improvement, albeit a small one. Its impact on weapon swaps etc is not noticable, buthow quickly you can resume attacking after activating a boost is.

I would put shield mastery at like level 3 and move stunning blow up a little bit - I dont think the feat is very strong prior to lv 7-9 because most monsters will die in 1-2-3 hits (even non-crit hits) and stunning them doesn't noticably speed up your time spent killing them. Also, prior to those levels finding a weapon of stunning x is very difficult, because the lowest level items tend to not have any useful effects at all (similar to how you often have to be looting ml 6 items before +1 flaming ml 2 will spawn in your chest at all). These players wont have ship buffs or good twink str gear, so without access to a weapon of stunning their stunning blow is gonna be unexceptional at best. Putting it off until they've had some time to learn the economy is probably a good idea.

[Asketes]

As for the feat discussions -- I'm all for changing up the template's feats, but we need suggestions on what to replace them with. We've got two instances of Toughness on that list, and admittedly we could add more. Thoughts?

Keep the suggestions coming! I can't get to all of them at once, but I promise to look over each post.

A fighter not going for Improved Trip will EASILY have 4 or 5 toughness feats.


This is expected and heavily bolsters the fighter's hit points so they can survive brutal enemy attacks.

[TheDjinnFor]

• Ability Point Buy: At level 4, put 1 Ability Point into DEX. Then, at every fourth level beyond that, put all Ability Points into Strength (STR).

Mentioning that a +1 dexterity Tome can also work toward qualifying for TWF is a good idea, even if most newbies can't hit it off the boat.

Feats

Sunder/Improved Sunder is a notoriously hard to hit feat where it counts (epic, high AC purple names). Resilience is just pointless thanks to the gigantic DPS loss; might as well take another toughness. Oversized Two Weapon Fighting could probably be dropped, fighters just don't have to-hit issues.

Quick Draw is missing; might as well take that since fighters are a haste-boosty/weapon-switchy class. Shield Mastery is a nice utility feat when you have 18 feats; 20% damage reduction when blocking with a Tower Shield, why not? You might not be a pure tank but I still throw on a Shield every once in a while; e.g. if the Horoth tank goes down and he starts chasing after me, I'll block in a corner instead of fruitlessly attempting to kite him. Finally, sap is not a bad feat; good for epics at least since it's a no-save, long duration stun. Just don't hit the thing you've stunned and you're set.

I'd also suggest grouping the feats together with a short explanation for why to take them.

These feats enhance your ability to fight with a weapon in each hand, making you more accurate and increasing the number of hits you get.
Two Weapon Fighting (Level 1)
Improved Two Weapon Fighting (Level 6)
Greater Two Weapon Fighting (Level 12)

These feats help you deal damage! Power attack trades accuracy for damage, and Improved Critical doubles your chances for getting a critical hit.
Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons (Level 8)
Power Attack (Level 9)

A fighter is a master of weapons, and these feats improve both your accuracy and damage potential. They also help you qualify for the Kensei Prestige Enhancement Class (see Enhancements, below), which further hones your skills.
Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons (Level 2)
Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons (Level 4)
Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons (Level 10)
Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons (Level 12)
Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons (Level 18)

These active feats must be used during combat. They all have a niche use, and a master fighter is one that uses all of the tools at his or her disposal. If you don't feel up to the task of managing and using all of these special abilities, or you don't like the sound of some of their effects, you can replace any of them except stunning blow with Toughness feats for added durability. Stunning blow is just too good to pass up!
Stunning Blow
Slicing Blow
Sap
Cleave

Finally, these feats are good utility feats. Toughness boosts your HP and unlocks additional HP-boosting enhancements, while quickdraw helps you switch weapons and armor faster as well as decrease the delay between your special boost abilities. Shield Mastery can be a useful feat to turtle up with when the going gets rough.
Toughness (Level 1)
Shield Mastery
Quick Draw

Enhancements

You might as well mention the Kensai Prestige Enhancement. Now, they can be changed around pretty easy but in my opinion if you're going to mention the number ranks (I or II or III) you should recommend the minimum. For haste boost, it's all four. If you're not going to recommend ranks, then that's fine; simply listing good enhancements is okay, as well as a short description of why.

Something like...

These enhancements give you a temporary boost to your combat prowess. Haste Boost is an invaluable ability that provides a huge increase to your attack speed. Attack Boost III is required for the Kensei Prestige Enhancement.
• Fighter Haste Boost IV
• Fighter Attack Boost III

As an axe-wielding dwarf, these enhancements boost your accuracy and damage. Take at least one rank, or more if you want.
• Dwarven Axe Attack I
• Dwarven Axe Damage I

The Kensei fighter hones his or her skills in a specific weapon type, and in your case that's Dwarven Waraxes. Critical Accuracy III is required to qualify for this prestige enhancement.
• Fighter Critical Accuracy III
• Fighter Kensei III
• Kensei Dwarven Axe Mastery III
• Fighter Dwarven Axe Specialization II

These enhancements provide a small boost to your ability scores and health. They're the recommended minimums; you can get even more if you want.
• Fighter Strength II
• Dwarven Constitution I
• Fighter Toughness II
• Racial Toughness II

To help boost your active feats, you can take these enhancements to make it harder to resist your Stunning Blow, Trip and Sunder attacks.
• Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
• Fighter Strategy (Trip) I
• Dwarven Tactics I

Finally, the Fighter capstone is a great enhancement that gives you a 10% chance to strike a second time with your weapon.
• Fighter Weapon Alacrity

[stainer]

snip

That is a pretty awesome write up, TheDjinnFor.

IMHO 1 toughness is enough. My TWF Dwarf Ftr Dreckler only has one toughness and does fine.

Quick Draw is an awesome feat to have.

@FordyTwo

You might offer options for some of "extra" feats, like "toughness OR stunning blow" and give examples or info on why someone would pick one way or another.

[bobbryan2]

Consider Combat Expertise if only for Improved Trip. Likely this will be a Kensai build that benefits from having a lot of tactical feats. Plus it gives the player something to do if they get bored just holding down their attack button.

I thought about that, and even liked the suggestion... but again, that works better with a THF build. With less of a dex investment, you can pick up more tactic feats, more intim, some charisma, and actually have some good useful tactics. It's very hard to fit 11 (or 13 for a newb) INT on a TWF fighter.

So... I can understand the exclusion of improved trip on this build.

[danotmano1998]

I'll add in a mention of dwarf axes, as that's a very good suggestion!

When we first began discussing Fighter 101, the topic of what fighter type to make into a template was discussed at length. We didn't want to do Intimitank or AC because of the investment required on loot drops, etc. So, it came down to THF and TWF -- but a THF felt more like a Barbarian 101 template (barbarian SMASH!).

No matter what type of fighter we go with (AC, THF, TWF, etc) there's going to be a deficiency somewhere. Newbie players don't start with 32pt builds, tomes, or pretty much any other leg-up that intermediate or veteran players have -- and that's okay. We just want them to have a straight-forward idea of how (and where) to begin their DDO experience.

So, TWF was our choice because A) dual-wielding is fun, B) low-to-no Intimidate means less tactics juggling early-on and C) we didn't want to steal barbarian mojo later on in Barbarian 101.

As for the feat discussions -- I'm all for changing up the template's feats, but we need suggestions on what to replace them with. We've got two instances of Toughness on that list, and admittedly we could add more. Thoughts?

Keep the suggestions coming! I can't get to all of them at once, but I promise to look over each post.

What you have is a very good place for new people to start, IMO. Discussing tomes and other prestige options probably isn't going to fit into what you are trying to do here.

Only thing I could recommend, (and this is for all the 101 guides) is to put in a link near the bottom with the associated prestige choices for easy reference.

[bobbryan2]

I second quick draw.

Or is it third?

Much better than resiliance.