Feedback: Fighter 101 (Work in Progress)

[eonfreon]

Fordytwo,
I noticed you have Improved Trip at level 15. Now, I am actually a fan of this Feat, but unless something's changed don't you need Combat Expertise to qualify for it?

[shad0wguns]

my recommendation for a fighter build is this
start with max strength that you can get
15 DEX minimum because u can use a +2 tome to make it 17 so u can get your feats
rets of your points go to CON because HP matters
for feats take the feats that u need for the kensaii prestige as soon as u can if u dont hav any up that u need take a toughness all be warned at level 18 u get a class feat and u can not take toughness so the level 16 feat take toughness and level 18 class feat take superior weapon focus slashing.

please note if u dont go dwarf i recommend human or half elf because u can get 1 more STR with this also half elf u get the rouge feat for half elf giving u sneak attack damage wich helps if u dont hav aggro also i would recommend takeing a exotic weapon feat (i prefer khopesh but others might say dwarven axes) because u hav enough feats and u will do more damage using one of these weapons (make sure u take oversized TWF)
again this is my opinion and it works very well for me

[shad0wguns]

this is if u care
STR 42
DEX 22, because of madstone boots and i came across a +3 dex tome
CON 30
INT 8
WIS 8
CHA 8
i hav greater might of the abishai set on and +1 and +2 EXC STR
1 TR

[eonfreon]

for feats take the feats that u need for the kensaii prestige as soon as u can if u dont hav any up that u need take a toughness all be warned at level 18 u get a class feat and u can not take toughness so the level 16 feat take toughness and level 18 class feat take superior weapon focus slashing.

You actually have that backwards. At level 16 you get a class feat, which can't be toughness.

[kevroar-eu]

In the template it says that all of the slashing feats can be used on shortswords on axes.
perhaps change to longswords and axes to clarify the difference.

[sirgog]

I quite like this guide. It's not min-maxxed, but it will produce a character that is 100% viable at all levels.

I'd echo the suggestions to drop the shield feats, possibly in favor of more Toughness feats and/or Oversized Two Weapon Fighting.

OTWF is particularly important with mediocre gear, no past lives and minimal access to tomes - a fighter with no raid loot, a +2 Holy Silver dwarven axe in the main hand, a +3 Metalline of Pure Good one in the offhand is not going to hit Arraetrikos on a 2 with their first attack in a bardless group at level 17, and a freshly-20 Fighter with a +4 Holy Burst dwarven axe in each hand and only 1 or 2 pieces of raid loot is not going to hit epic Malicia on a 2 even if she's Destructed and in an Acid Fog. (In the latter case, they probably aren't even hitting on a 10 with their first attack unless they have a lot of buffs you can't rely on having in 6-person groups).


Gearwise, I'd advise the following:

1) Always carry a blunt weapon (or two), even if you aren't specced for them at all. Skeletons are very hard to damage without blunt weapons.
2) Don't be afraid to use a two-handed weapon, or one weapon and a shield, at lower level. Two-weapon fighting lets you attack very fast, but your attacks aren't very accurate.
3) If you find monsters hard to hit, drink a Heroism potion, or group with a bard. Heroism potions and bard hireling contracts are both available in House Kundarak.
4) Always wear the best +Strength item you can get your hands upon.
5) As a Fighter, you can wear heavy plate armor if you want. You don't have to - if you come across some awesome lighter armor (such as the Marilith Chain), you can wear that too. At low level, however, fullplate is fantastic.

[Nysrock]

Couple of things I noticed.

No mention was made of what alignment to take. While this is personal preference I would think Neutral Good would be the most newbie friendly. That way they can use Pure Good weapons and either Anarchic or Axiomatic.

Also, it should be mentioned that for the first couple of levels or so they would be better off using THF or going Axe & Shield. The reasoning behind this is when your just starting out your to-hit bonus really isn't that high. Adding a second weapon would make it that much worse at first. At the least they should keep a 2-hander ready in case they find they can't hit something.

And I didn't notice (though might be there) a mention of how they could use a light weapon in their off-hand to have a lesser penalty when they do go TWF.

[karl_k0ch]

I really like the idea of this thread, I also liked it for the sorcerer one.

It is really a thing where the players/forum users see the "powered by our fans" stuff. It's nice to see how such a thing comes together with the help of the community.

However, a new player who reads any of the 101s, will not see that the official guide he reads is actually a community-powered work. It would be pretty neat if the guide would have a tag like "This official guide was created with the help of the DDO Community", where the link goes to the corresponding discussion thread (such as this one).

I'm not pressing on proper citations of everyone who voiced his opinion to a state of the certain 101, but it would be nice if the Community's dedication to help new players would be reflected in the final document.

3) If you find monsters hard to hit, drink a Heroism potion, or group with a bard. Heroism potions and bard hireling contracts are both available in House Kundarak.

Does house K have non-guild vendors which are selling these items? If not, the Marketplace and/or House J might be a better idea to turn to.

[Dendrix]

I would suggest the following feat layout

(1) Toughness
F(1) Shield Mastery
F(2) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
(3) Iron Will
F(4) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Remember: At level 4, put an ability point into DEX to meet the requirements for Improved Two Weapon Fighting at level 6.
(6) Two Weapon Fighting
F(6) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
F(8) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
(9) Power Attack
F(10) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
(12) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
F(12) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
F(14) Stunning Blow
(15) Toughness
F(16) Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
F(18) Quick Draw
(18) Toughness
F(20) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting

Start with using sword+shield wearing the best armour that you can use, ideally adamantine for the Damage Reduction. The Shield Mastery feat gives you additional damage reduction when using a shield.

At 6th level swap to using two weapons. At this level you can afford the minus' to your to hit from using two weapons, before this point you will miss too much, especially if you are using a non light weapon in the off hand (-4 to hit with both weapons).

At 9th level when you gain Power Attack you should have this on most of the time, it's a massive increase to your effective damage.

Using Power Attack give you -5 to hit, using 2 non-light weapons gives you -4 to hit. If you find you are missing a lot (more than 40% then you should either switching power attack off or swapping to sword and shield.

At 6th, 12th and 18th level you should be gaioning the Kensai prestige class at level 1, 2 and 3 respectivly from spending your enhancements. Respend your enhancements using the show unavailable checkbox to enable you to be able to see and select the required pre-requisits.

[The_Phenx]

[QUOTE=FordyTwo;3848082]

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Template: Two Weapon Dwarf Fighter

This template can be used as a guide to building a stout-and-strong dual-wielding dwarf fighter. Feel free to follow it however much or little you like; everyone has their own DDO play style!

Ability Point Buy

• Strength --------16
• Dexterity -------16
• Constitution ---16
• Intelligence ----10
• Wisdom --------8
• Charisma -------6

• Ability Point Buy: At level 4, put 1 Ability Point into DEX. Then, at every fourth level beyond that, put all Ability Points into Strength (STR).

I would put in this spot how tomes count toward feat prerequisites. And that they should TRY to acquire a +1 dex tome. Which is a fairly easy thing to do, and then they can put that level up stat point into strength.

• (3) Iron Will

Should never be taken as a feat. Not getting held/charmed is nice, but this is a pretty pointless feat and has no real value. I suggest putting oversize two weapon fighting in its place. Hitting as a fighter is top priority. And in low levels and end game +2 extra can make a LOT of difference.

Enhancements

Because enhancements can be changed in-game for a small fee, feel free to experiment with your choices.

For example, this dwarf two-weapon fighter has a -1 to Will Saves because of his 8 Wisdom – so I always grab the Dwarf: Spell Defense enhancement to counter-act this weakness. Additionally, grabbing any "Toughness" enhancements is highly recommended.

You should also mention that the dwarf should ALWAYS take dwarven ax attack and damage enhancements. Not to do so is silly .

Thats all I got... good job on this one guys.

[stainer]

I am not sure if you did this with the Sorc 101 build, but you might put a link to this thread once you get the Fighter 101 up on the Compendium. That way new players can look at the discussion that has went on to get to the end result. It will be informative to see how others would make adjustments.

[KillEveryone]

Ability Point Buy

At character creation, invest a few skill points into Balance, Jump, and at least one rank of Tumble. Concentrate on maintaining a high Balance skill, but only train 10 ranks of Jump – spells can temporarily raise this skill in party situations, where it really matters.

Skills - Intimidate is also a good one if they can fit it in. I'd say that would be more important unless you solo a lot and need to be able to jump to spots but I don't think 10 jump would help if you are soloing all the content. Intimidate would be better because once the player becomes more informed and comfortable playing with their class, the'll probably start to look for hate gear and it would be better to be able to use the skill on a first life with all their gear rather than have to LR or TR to get that skill.

Otherwise, what you wrote is good.

----------------------------------------

Sky Blue

For a first TWF build, this is pretty good. Dwarven axes are going to be a bit expensive though.

It should probably be mentioned what the penalties for TWF are. Many new players have a hard time hitting TWF because they are trying to use oversized weapons in the off hand. It should also be mentioned that if they are still having trouble hitting while TWF with a correct weapon in the off hand, they should probably just whip out a THF weapon or use a sword and shield since AC is easy to get early, until they get their BAB up a little higher to hit more often while TWF.

[FordyTwo]

I really like the idea of this thread, I also liked it for the sorcerer one.

It is really a thing where the players/forum users see the "powered by our fans" stuff. It's nice to see how such a thing comes together with the help of the community.

However, a new player who reads any of the 101s, will not see that the official guide he reads is actually a community-powered work. It would be pretty neat if the guide would have a tag like "This official guide was created with the help of the DDO Community", where the link goes to the corresponding discussion thread (such as this one).

I am not sure if you did this with the Sorc 101 build, but you might put a link to this thread once you get the Fighter 101 up on the Compendium. That way new players can look at the discussion that has went on to get to the end result. It will be informative to see how others would make adjustments.

Love both of these ideas, and so it will come to pass.

[RudeIota]

I dunno if it's too late for this suggestion, but wouldn't ranger 101 be a better place to put a TWF? Especially with the aversion to ranged builds, I can't imagine what else you'd offer to NKOTB for a ranger 101 template.

While TWF is something Rangers are very good at, it is THE class to use for ranged weapons. The proof of that is in the Ranger capstone.

When the time comes, they will likely do an Arcane Archer guide (or Deepwood Sniper since Eladrin confirmed it was being worked on before U9 hit). This is especially likely since they are focusing on making unique guides for each class.. You can only do so much with Melee and they have Fighters and Barbarians already covered.

[FordyTwo]

I've updated the template again!

If anyone has recommendations for AC fighter guides, let us know with a link in this thread. We'll be giving some love to any particularly good AC guides in Fighter 101, as it's no easy task to put one together. Even though the 101 guide is meant to be simple and straight-forward, we don't want to leave a new player looking for AC information in the cold.

[QuantumFX]

Stunning Blow, Sunder and Trip are used during combat and have specific uses. A master fighter uses all the tools at their disposal. Note that some of the tougher boss creatures in DDO resist these active abilities, no matter how good a character is at using them.

You should *really* consider making an article on setting up your user interface and making hotkeys for active abilities. And then link it to this part of the article. One of the things I constantly see with new players is that they don’t use stuff like Trip and Sunder because they simply don’t know how it works. It will also come back to help you for your future articles.

Also:
Dwarfs should be Dwarves.
Dwarf Axe should be Dwarven Axe.

[stainer]

I've updated the template again!

If anyone has recommendations for AC fighter guides, let us know with a link in this thread. We'll be giving some love to any particularly good AC guides in Fighter 101, as it's no easy task to put one together. Even though the 101 guide is meant to be simple and straight-forward, we don't want to leave a new player looking for AC information in the cold.

Since an AC build is so gear dependent, do you think a 201 guide or even a graduate level 701 guide is more appropriate?!!??!

[Lerl]

I like the guide. I do have a question about LW-GG's character, though. If this is for newbs, they pretty much are going with a 28 point build. Your build is 32 points. What is your reasoning for this?

[Zargarx]

Guide is getting pretty good for the intended audience.
My comments :
Although this guide goes to lvl 20, the first few levels are critical for a newer player. Have leveled up way too many builds, often pugging with new players.
As a two weapon fighter build, I think shield should be excluded with at most a passing remarAlthough shield would be somewhat better, I find it dilutes this build and takes away a key early feat spot. k.
Also two weapon fighting feat should be at level 1 with toughness. Comment to use a handaxe in alt hand until get oversized twf feat. That feat should also be early in the build, but not as early as iron will. Yes this a near useless feat at high levels but until get there I think it quite a good feat for newer players running fighters. It is quite frustrating failing will save after will save.Mention it can be swapped out for toughness when don't need it anymore at high levels.
I think this gives an improved experience for newer players .

[FordyTwo]

Since an AC build is so gear dependent, do you think a 201 guide or even a graduate level 701 guide is more appropriate?!!??!

Cordovan and I chatted about this and agreed it's better to just wait. Thanks for the input!

You should *really* consider making an article on setting up your user interface and making hotkeys for active abilities. And then link it to this part of the article. One of the things I constantly see with new players is that they don’t use stuff like Trip and Sunder because they simply don’t know how it works. It will also come back to help you for your future articles.

Also:
Dwarfs should be Dwarves.
Dwarf Axe should be Dwarven Axe.

I agree with the UI tutorial comment, and the improper use of Dwarf has been corrected. Man, how embarrassing is that? (Thanks, as well!)