dex mod to dmg

[biscothejerd]

In pen and paper 3.5 edition rogues had some options to add dex to dmg and seeing as how on high end raids you need to be a str rogue to do the best dmg , why have we not gotten a dex to dmg feat or enhancement similar to how swordsages had a feat for it.

[dkyle]

The devil would be in the details.

Full DEX mod to damage would be broken, but giving weapon finesse the ability to apply [(STR mod + DEX mod) / 2] in place of STR mod, if higher, wouldn't be unreasonable.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

The devil would be in the details.

Full DEX mod to damage would be broken, but giving weapon finesse the ability to apply [(STR mod + DEX mod) / 2] in place of STR mod, if higher, wouldn't be unreasonable.

Neh, just tack on a second feat that require Finesse if you want Dex to Damage.
And make it only work with Finessable weapons.

I don't think that's broken, considering you're taking two feats to do it.

[SolarDawning]

Neh, just tack on a second feat that require Finesse if you want Dex to Damage.
And make it only work with Finessable weapons.

I don't think that's broken, considering you're taking two feats to do it.

This is what I agree with.
The important part is that there has to be an opportunity cost to it. A high BAB requirement, say 11, wouldn't hurt either.

[biscothejerd]

This is what I agree with.
The important part is that there has to be an opportunity cost to it. A high BAB requirement, say 11, wouldn't hurt either.

Make it a lvl 18 enhancement and make it forgo any str to dmg??

[HatsuharuZ]

This is what I agree with.
The important part is that there has to be an opportunity cost to it. A high BAB requirement, say 11, wouldn't hurt either.

You had me until you suggested a BAB requirement. That's a bit steep, imo. It would be nice if it were part of a chain of feats starting with Finesse, however, or perhaps a rogue bonus feat like Opportunist or Imp. Evasion.

Furthermore, I don't think being able to use dex for damage is OP. There are many ways to temporarily increase strength, such as Kensai Power Surge, those gloves from Mindsunder, and barbarian rage. There are not as many ways to increase dexterity.

[Calebro]

There are not as many ways to increase dexterity.

You're right, there aren't. But that doesn't matter because you'd be powering both offense and defense at the same time with the same stat. So you wouldn't be able to get it that high, but you'd certainly be able to last longer to get the same result.
So what if you can get Str higher? It wouldn't matter when you could use one stat for attack, damage, reflex saves, armor class, and balance. The fact that the cap would be *slightly* lower than that of a Str based toon would be a moot point.

To the guy with one post that mentioned Natt Gann and Envenomed Blade: What do you plan to do against any mob with DR? Those weapons suck, so using them as examples of why it would be OK is not an appropriate analogy. They exist for niche builds and are all but useless to even THOSE builds against many of the mobs in the game. Envenomed blade isn't atrocious, but the staff certainly is.

[Therrias]

Grab a staff of Nat Gann and you're good to go.

[biscothejerd]

How would it be broken, would rogues with a enhancement option for dex to dmg really be op'd?
It would make finesse builds the best for rogues at high end raids.

[Raithe]

In pen and paper 3.5 edition rogues had some options to add dex to dmg and seeing as how on high end raids you need to be a str rogue...

There is no such thing as str or dex rogue in DDO anymore. Everyone can get their strength to near-equal their dexterity, even if they dumped strength and max'd dexterity.

Dexterity makes your ranged attacks more accurate and your reflex save and AC better. You may have to give up a few points of damage (2-5) depending on how much you are going for ranged/AC/reflex. Two to five points in a scale that can currently hit well beyond a hundred with sneak attacks is nothing to be allocating dev time towards.

At all.

[biscothejerd]

There is no such thing as str or dex rogue in DDO anymore. Everyone can get their strength to near-equal their dexterity, even if they dumped strength and max'd dexterity.

Dexterity makes your ranged attacks more accurate and your reflex save and AC better. You may have to give up a few points of damage (2-5) depending on how much you are going for ranged/AC/reflex. Two to five points in a scale that can currently hit well beyond a hundred with sneak attacks is nothing to be allocating dev time towards.

At all.

Tghere is such a thing thats why so many rogues either max dex or str and forget the other except for gear enhancements, like for example i took dex every four levels to get my dex higher, where did you get that from anyways?

[Raithe]

Tghere is such a thing thats why so many rogues either max dex or str and forget the other except for gear enhancements, like for example i took dex every four levels to get my dex higher, where did you get that from anyways?

Na, you didn't understand anything I wrote. You can get your strength to near-equal your dexterity - regardless of how many build points you put into dexterity.

You seemed to be worried about "the best damage" in high-end raids. I assume from this that you are comparing your performance against ultra-optimized rogues that have tons of gear, tomes, guild bonuses, and other buffing sources. Calling yourself a dex-based rogue automatically removes yourself from contention for comparison, simply because the sources and gear available for increasing strength far outweigh the sources for buffing dexterity.

For example, say you have a 40 dex. You can still get a 40 strength, even if you only started with 10 base strength:

10 base
4 tome
7 item
3 exceptional
2 rage
2 guild
3 profane
9 psionic/madstone/rams/yugo/profane/alchemical

The ultimate point is that a feat which used your dex bonus in place of your strength bonus would be useless to ultra-optimized rogues running high-end raids.

[Failedlegend]

There a Feat called Melee Training (Dex) which allows you to use your Dex bonus for attack and half your Dex bonus to damage for any weapon.

Make that for finessable weapons only and make your attack speed increase 1% for every Dex mod or something it would be awesome without being OP

[Calebro]

There a Feat called Melee Training (Dex) which allows you to use your Dex bonus for attack and half your Dex bonus to damage for any weapon.

Make that for finessable weapons only and make your attack speed increase 1% for every Dex mod or something it would be awesome without being OP

There is no such feat in 3.x. That's a 4.0 feat.

I used to want the same thing, but I have since been convinced that it would indeed be OP.
With such a system, Dex becomes the Go-To stat for every toon that has feats to burn. It would power a toon's attack, damage, AC, and 1/3 of your saves.
No fighter in his right mind would focus on Str anymore. Str would become obsolete on many fighters and almost all rangers, while the feat starved rogues would actually have a hard time fitting in a feat that was designed for them.

/not signed.

[Failedlegend]

There is no such feat in 3.x. That's a 4.0 feat.

Turbine has already shown their willingness to take ideas from other edition ie. Dilettantes

I used to want the same thing, but I have since been convinced that it would indeed be OP.
With such a system, Dex becomes the Go-To stat for every toon that has feats to burn. It would power a toon's attack, damage, AC, and 1/3 of your saves.
No fighter in his right mind would focus on Str anymore. Str would become obsolete on many fighters and almost all rangers, while the feat starved rogues would actually have a hard time fitting in a feat that was designed for them.

/not signed.

IIRC correctly max Str is 100+ while max dex is something around 50~ and your only receiving half damage from Dex and your Str is doing nothing (beyond carrying capacity)

It would only make Dex builds slightly less pointless

[Symar-FangofLloth]

This is what I agree with.
The important part is that there has to be an opportunity cost to it. A high BAB requirement, say 11, wouldn't hurt either.

Then you're gimped for half the game. It should be available early, if at all.

I used to want the same thing, but I have since been convinced that it would indeed be OP.
With such a system, Dex becomes the Go-To stat for every toon that has feats to burn. I

Sure, but if it's limited to finesse weapons only, then you're missing out on any THF, on Khopesh, Bastard Sword, Heavy Pick, whatever else people like to use these days.
Not that you can't use them, but then why did you take the dex-to-damage feat?

It'd lead to a whole bunch of Drow Rapier Kensai or something


Anyway, I don't care either way. I just don't think it'd be all that overpowering if they did add an option.

[bhgiant]

There is no such feat in 3.x. That's a 4.0 feat.

I used to want the same thing, but I have since been convinced that it would indeed be OP.
With such a system, Dex becomes the Go-To stat for every toon that has feats to burn. It would power a toon's attack, damage, AC, and 1/3 of your saves.
No fighter in his right mind would focus on Str anymore. Str would become obsolete on many fighters and almost all rangers, while the feat starved rogues would actually have a hard time fitting in a feat that was designed for them.

/not signed.

Why not make it a rogue bonus feat? Aside from the PnP deviance and the rangers whining, I don't see why not.

[voodoogroves]

Why not make it a rogue bonus feat? Aside from the PnP deviance and the rangers whining, I don't see why not.

Or expand the acrobat ability from "DEX to sneak damage with staff only" to (after some AP maybe?) "DEX to sneak damage with some of these other weapons". I could also see a second feat ... but it has to have a serious cost.

I'm w/ Phidius and Calebro. I used to think this way as well, but we don't need to make DEX a DPS stat ... we need things to do that make the other bits of DEX more useful. APs that you can only get with minimum DEX requiements, key some abilities off of DEX mod (like Shuriken expertise already, or Zen Archery for monchers)

Frankly, I've got a gimpy finesse rogue. You know, that drow you roll when you first get 400 favor? I dusted her off a while back and have been putting gear on her the past few months. With the eMG and others allowing straight DEX to damage, she tears anyone up without 2-part DR (and even then, if she can sneak them it's plenty harsh DPS).

[ORIGINALBAG0]

The issue with this argument is that dex is not an offensive stat. It is entirely defensive. It controls ranged attack to keep enemies away from you, reflex saves to take less damage from spells and traps, and AC to, again, take less damage. It costs a whole feat to even get part of your melee to be dex-based, and it takes rare epic items to use dex for damage. This is how it should be. Strength is entirely an offensive stat. The only thing it controls other than melee is carrying capacity, which is a non-issue once you get your strength over 12 anyway. Letting us take dex to damage would be extremely broken, since raising your dex would raise your survivability and your offense at the same time, unless there was a heavy cost, like capping carrying capacity at 100lbs or something equally limiting that would then be cried about to no end on the forums.