Atari/Cryptic's Neverwinter Online

[spyyder976]

http://pc.ign.com/articles/117/1172727p1.html

Screenshots look amazing! I made some mods and worlds in NWN and this toolset appears to be similar, with as much depth as you want, though even more simplified for those who don't want to do all the detail work or who can't understand things like trigger systems and basic coding and such. Dragging and dropping-who can't do that? I've been casting infinite Wish spells that DDO would add a toolset for player-created content since day 1, and if (big IF since it's Atari/Cryptic egads!) Neverwinter Online does it right, then it's going to be huge. Or it's gonna fail hard.

City of Heroes/Villains has a toolset for creating content also, which I was so glad to see come out when it did. I don't understand why it's not a priority here; whoever does this right is going to take their game to another level. Devs, remember all those messages I sent you about this, and ways to do it easily that are now being done by your competitors in another game that has dungeons in city sewers? Maybe you should have listened...or at least get to work on it now-before it's too late.

Player-created content done right is the future on online gaming, which I've said for YEARS. Oh yeah, all these years I haven't just sent messages to DDO; other companies have made game changes/additions/even created new gaming systems or entire games based on my original ideas that I freely gave to them because I'm not ever going to be able to develop on my own and at least I can play my ideas if somebody else makes them. I know they took my ideas and developed them because I've had conversations with developers and other personnel from those companies. It looks like a 4th company has finally listened to me. If you start now, 5th place isn't horribly bad.

[Uska]

1. Its not a mmo

2. Its 4th edition

3. Its cyrptic

hmm that looks like three strikes to me


city of heros player generated content was a nightmare and never was even mildly fun or exciting to me and in the orignal nwn only about 1% of the player content was worth down loading there is to many issues to allow it here.


player content for a at home/online game is a totaly differnt thing over doing it for a mmo and yeah city of heros did it but meh.


5th place hah its still has the best combat of all games and for me at least the only game worth playing much less spending any money on

[Missing_Minds]

3. Its cyrptic and is still going to be pushed around by Atari even if it has been sold off.

We have to remember, Atari is the one with the rights to DnD, not Cryptic. (I think this is the case at least.) So they still have their grubby hands in the mix. After reading how the lawsuits with Turbine vs. Atari went here, let alone seeing how Champions Online went....

I still feel really bad for Cryptic devs, quite honestly. They got bullied by Atari let alone "manager-ed" by... people with stronger opinions than they should have had. (fortunately, those people seem to have been removed. I've actually been enjoying CO again. Something I couldn't say since day 1 crippling nerf.)

But all said and done, DDO is still home. The NWN cinimatics looked pretty... waiting for gameplay, but really really really doubting I'll bother.

[Ryiah]

2. Its 4th edition

3. Its cyrptic

Personally I don't mind Cryptic, but what I do mind is the company that appears to be buying their studio - Perfect World, Inc. That company has some MMOs they've made and published that are completely pay-to-win.

As for fourth edition, I haven't really looked into it so I wouldn't know what exactly it involves so I probably will just give it a shot. At the very least, even if fourth is lousy, the game itself should be somewhat able to stand on its own as an RPG.

[Shyver]

Please elaborate on what "done right" is.

While there were a few decent player made mods in NwN1, a vast majority of them were garbage. Players always want bigger and more powerful loot and faster xp. What would be stopping the player made dungeons from giving out these things without a balance of reward to challenge?

This community, and really all MMO communities, have a knack for finding the smallest of exploits, loopholes, terrain errors, ect. How would this be tested before being released to the public? Especialy with the flood of content that would be coming in from the DIY crowd?

I've seen many posts about user made content and MMO's over the years, yours is hardly the first or original, yet the details on how to "do it right" are always vague or nonexistant. I want to believe that it would be good for the game, and many people would like to see it in the game. But no one seems to know how to go about accompishing it.

So please, elaborate and layout the groundwork for how to accomplish a system that isn't exploitable and has balance.

[Ryiah]

So please, elaborate and layout the groundwork for how to accomplish a system that isn't exploitable and has balance.

In an ideal situation, I would go with a small team that verifies the content. Most companies though tend to go the route of player rating systems because it is cheap, but for a system like this to work you really just can't do that.

Alternatively, or even in addition to, you could have the team mark the content creators as having been checked for quality and getting approved. Then you could simply check a reduced portion of their content. At a later date, if you receive a complaint, you could always go over the content it concerns and verify that it is balanced. With enough complaints, you could always go over all their content and verify it.

I suppose you could even potentially throw in scripts to help the process by offering suggestions. It shouldn't be that difficult for a system to determine the path the player(s) take through the content using a combination of path-finding and analysis of the enemies and traps.

[TheDjinnFor]

So please, elaborate and layout the groundwork for how to accomplish a system that isn't exploitable and has balance.

That wouldn't be 'doing it right', though. Only a limited subset of players want that kind of game, where things are challenging. Many players, for example, enjoy blasting through content on easy mode with the best gear and equipment... for a while anyways. They also enjoy distracting themselves with mind-numbingly simple gameplay mechanics in order to 'gear up' to do this. Hence the popularity of MMOs. You don't need a balanced game that isn't exploitable if the goal is to give users the tools to create what they want to play.

A 'good' game would be as much like PnP as possible: limited and 'balanced' if the players wanted it to be. Provide as much options and choice as you can. A highly-customizable enemy AI system would go a long way, I would imagine; something that allows you to create groups of like-minded individuals that share similar AI characteristics (and broad enough that the NPCs motivations, like how greedy or courageous they are, would factor in) while at the same time personalizing each NPCs behavior if it's necessary. Many players could neglect this if they just wanted to make a good old fashioned hack and slash, but for more political/role play campaigns, it would be welcome.

A large amount of detailed, customizable art assets, like walls and furniture, randomly generated tree structures, or even more extreme stuff like individual bricks and planks of wood that could be attached together to form almost anything, would be a welcome addition. That, and support for uploading user-generated art assets as well. A lot of players (I'm thinking minecraft here) would appreciate a simple editor that they could use to create all kinds of architecture.

Starcraft 2 is a good example of a good editor: it's complicated as hell and you practically have to be a programmer to work it, but you can pretty much do anything you want with it, from turn-based RPGs to third-person shooters (seriously). Starcraft 2's editor will certainly last until its next sequel.

[Yaga_Nub]

...I know they took my ideas and developed them because I've had conversations with developers and other personnel from those companies. It looks like a 4th company has finally listened to me. If you start now, 5th place isn't horribly bad.

A little full of yourself aren't you? Trust me, you weren't the first or the last person to have the idea nor were you the first or the last to tell companies about the idea.

[Shyver]

That wouldn't be 'doing it right', though. Only a limited subset of players want that kind of game, where things are challenging. Many players, for example, enjoy blasting through content on easy mode with the best gear and equipment... for a while anyways. They also enjoy distracting themselves with mind-numbingly simple gameplay mechanics in order to 'gear up' to do this. Hence the popularity of MMOs. You don't need a balanced game that isn't exploitable if the goal is to give users the tools to create what they want to play.

A 'good' game would be as much like PnP as possible: limited and 'balanced' if the players wanted it to be. Provide as much options and choice as you can. A highly-customizable enemy AI system would go a long way, I would imagine; something that allows you to create groups of like-minded individuals that share similar AI characteristics (and broad enough that the NPCs motivations, like how greedy or courageous they are, would factor in) while at the same time personalizing each NPCs behavior if it's necessary. Many players could neglect this if they just wanted to make a good old fashioned hack and slash, but for more political/role play campaigns, it would be welcome.

The problem is that in an MMO, it does have to at least try to achieve time/challenge/reward that works for everyone playing the game. The idea of a heavy RP, political campaign may appeal to some and that a pure hack n' slash munchkin campaign may appeal to others so give them the tools to make them is nice. However, we don't play on isolated mini-servers that keep those rules, campaigns, and most importantly loot on those servers. It's introduced to the game as a whole and as such needs to be balanced with other quests and loot of the same level and following the same game balance that exists (seperate argument for a different thread ) currently.

[Lerincho]

A little full of yourself aren't you? Trust me, you weren't the first or the last person to have the idea nor were you the first or the last to tell companies about the idea.

Maybe he got it in writing that he was the only one that they bothered to listen to. You know, just so that he would stop calling them every day, or to have him not hang out where they do lunch all the time.

[SableShadow]

Maybe he got it in writing that he was the only one that they bothered to listen to. You know, just so that he would stop calling them every day, or to have him not hang out where they do lunch all the time.

That's called a restraining order.

[Lerincho]

That's called a restraining order.

Restraining Order....... Intellectual Licensing Agreement.... po-tay-to po-tah-to.

[die]

from what i heard is it is a mmo thier just not aloud too call it that because turbine owns the rights too any mmo's that have the dnd logo

http://pc.ign.com/articles/117/1172727p1.html

great interview sound s alot like ddo to me free flowing combat ,also forums just opened
http://www.playneverwinter.com/

this is the link i believe i read the mmo statement http://forums.playneverwinter.com/showthread.php?t=3548 10th post down "The only reason they are wording it as an Online RPG is because Turbine has exclusive rights to any D&D MMORPG till 2014." end quote now if you go read the interview its sure sounds like a ddo type game too me i know you will be able too creat dungeons this could really be the next generation of mmo games .. i could be wrong but it sure sounds and looks nice, and ill always have my life time membership here but ill admit i cant wait i fill just like akid

[die]

Please elaborate on what "done right" is.

While there were a few decent player made mods in NwN1, a vast majority of them were garbage. Players always want bigger and more powerful loot and faster xp. What would be stopping the player made dungeons from giving out these things without a balance of reward to challenge?

This community, and really all MMO communities, have a knack for finding the smallest of exploits, loopholes, terrain errors, ect. How would this be tested before being released to the public? Especialy with the flood of content that would be coming in from the DIY crowd?

I've seen many posts about user made content and MMO's over the years, yours is hardly the first or original, yet the details on how to "do it right" are always vague or nonexistant. I want to believe that it would be good for the game, and many people would like to see it in the game. But no one seems to know how to go about accompishing it.

So please, elaborate and layout the groundwork for how to accomplish a system that isn't exploitable and has balance.

I hope you can prove me wrong.

If Turbine can reverse their fortunes, Cryptic can too. They just got bought out by a company that isn't broke too.

Anyone remember Asheron's Call 2 and the original launch of DDO? If you do, there's coffee and someone to talk to in the hall.

[Shyver]

I hope you can prove me wrong.

If Turbine can reverse their fortunes, Cryptic can too. They just got bought out by a company that isn't broke too.

Anyone remember Asheron's Call 2 and the original launch of DDO? If you do, there's coffee and someone to talk to in the hall.

What am I supposed to be proving wrong exactly?

I was asking for proof or facts that would make user-made content viable and balanced in an MMO like DDO, WoW, LotRO, ect. If the new NWN is anything like the first then it's not an MMO like those mentioned above as the campaigns will be run on mini-servers that cater to a particular campaign or quest. User-made content works on that platform because each "game" you join is able to control what loot you bring into their campaign. That doesn't work in games like those I mentioned.

[die]

What am I supposed to be proving wrong exactly?

I was asking for proof or facts that would make user-made content viable and balanced in an MMO like DDO, WoW, LotRO, ect. If the new NWN is anything like the first then it's not an MMO like those mentioned above as the campaigns will be run on mini-servers that cater to a particular campaign or quest. User-made content works on that platform because each "game" you join is able to control what loot you bring into their campaign. That doesn't work in games like those I mentioned.

I think i quoted the wrong post sorry ...move along nothing too se here

[Flavilandile]

this is the link i believe i read the mmo statement http://forums.playneverwinter.com/showthread.php?t=3548 10th post down "The only reason they are wording it as an Online RPG is because Turbine has exclusive rights to any D&D MMORPG till 2014."

I looked at said statement, and it's no way something official. It's something somebody anonymous said.

It's like if I said that I heard that Hasbro is trying to sell WoTC...

According to what I've seen/read it looks like the previous versions of NWN... except that the modern equivalent of the "Gamespy interface to play online" will be mandatory ( no solo playing ) and it will look like a city... and to enter a quest ( not a PW, just a Dungeon/Adventure ) you'll just have to push a door with your group of friend.
( a group of no more than 5 ).

Anyway time will tell. So far what I see/read/hear makes it unpalatable. What I'd really like is an updated NWN1 with real PW support ( Databases, Linux, command line controls ). But that will never happens as it can pass drive people away from MMOs.

[TheDjinnFor]

The problem is that in an MMO, it does have to at least try to achieve time/challenge/reward that works for everyone playing the game.

I was mainly speaking from the perspective of NWN and the like, including this up and coming game Neverwinter, which was described as a 'online co-operative RPG' rather than an MMO.

The idea of a heavy RP, political campaign may appeal to some and that a pure hack n' slash munchkin campaign may appeal to others so give them the tools to make them is nice. However, we don't play on isolated mini-servers that keep those rules, campaigns, and most importantly loot on those servers.

Agreed for most standard MMOs, but many user-generated content games allow players to set up their own private servers as well. Which means you can be whatever level you want, playing whatever game you want.

Think of it as playing a custom map of Starcraft 2. Granted, the competitive game of Starcraft 2 must be balanced fairly well, but the map editor used to make and test the game can let you build a unit with a million hitpoints and equally as much damage and armor if you really wanted to. Some custom maps will be balanced and others will just be for goofing around, and in many balance doesn't even factor in (I've seen a few well-made pure roleplay games).

[Failedlegend]

1. Its not a mmo

2. Its 4th edition

3. Its cyrptic

hmm that looks like three strikes to me

#3 is the only strike there....NWN 1/2 were both awesome and they weren't MMOs.....4E is awesome although I'm not sure how well it will tranlate to a real time RPG its very reliant on being turn based.

I'll add a 2nd reason though...I've heard it going to be P2P...anyone know if this is true?

[Tinco]

While 4th Edition DnD in my opinion is not a suitable ruleset to emulate anything besides combat in PnP, it might work out well for a PC-Game where combat pretty much is the only subset of a rule-system that's really important. The weak point is that the most likely implementation of 4th ed combat is a WoW-like target-123456-dead combat system which is overdone and hardly immersive.