Let's talk about the update 11 raid

[oradafu]

Or just expand the idea of having a rogue in the party to reduce the bosses fort for the party. But please don't have it geared to a specific PRE or the other type of rogues would be shunned unless they had another one in the party...

This might be off topic, but I thought I'd throw my thoughts in here anyway.

Isn't that how it is right now? Mechanics have been shunned, unless it's a heavily trap infested quest, since I started playing. Before Update 9 playing a pure rogue acrobat, I could hear the disappointment in people's voices when I told them so..and usually got lectures that I should either be an Assassin or respec with Monk levels if I wanted to be useful. Seeing the writing on the wall before the update, I TRed to gain some past life feats since the last Update made the gulf between Assassins and other rogues extremely huge.

And rarely do you find PUGs that allow more than rogue. And it's near impossible to get people to join LFM for a regular quest if there's two rogues. Heck, I've seen groups drop rogues altogether if there was a multi-class that splashed rogues.

One of the things that would help rogues with 100% fort is if the Precision feat would remove the halving of sneak attack damage (and treated like elemental damage with the feat). With this adjustment to Precision feat and the Opportunist feat, rogues would have the 35% bypass without penalty. It would cost a precious feat spot... but the adjustment would be a "give" to sneak attack since the lack extra helpless damage was a "take" from sneak attack.

....Getting to the raid ideas...
I agree that Rogues would be more of an utility role, at least if there's a fight with a 100% fort Boss. By Utility, I don't mean traps because that would still mean the wiz 18/rogue 2 would knock all other rogues out of the group with many, many groups. I'm talking more like trash patrol, such as the Orthons in ToD part 3 or mephits in SoS. Also there's back up heals and rezzes for the UMD rogues.

Another Utility role would be to hit random runes during the fight. Runes could randomly light up in the room and must be turned off to prevent something from happening. What could the runes do? Spawn portals or open doors that allow trash to enter. Maybe the runes make the boss regenerate health, attack faster or hit harder.

These are just a few ideas that could be implemented that would allow any class to participate, but wouldn't prevent rogues or bards or any other "not flavor of the month" class/build from joining.

[Jiirix]

In addition to the required additional strategy and stats.. Equipment would be pushed up by massively scaling the damage reduction of the boss:
Give him a weird arbitrary DR that our regular weaponry simply cannot handle.. Like Byeshks or Crystal. Set it to a high enough value to make it straight impossible without getting that weaponry - say 50 points.

How about a giant ooze that cam mimic other raid bosses. DR between "shapeshifts" would be crystal, when doing a mimic DR of that certain boss. Would be fun to see people runnin lots of pits to get muckdooms

[zorander6]

Due to the forces of xoriat you are transported into a strange world where humans travel inside machines of the like you've never seen. There are strange boxes everywhere with moving pictures. The only beings you see are human. Your goal in this adventure is to return to Xendrik without killing anyone.

[Xyfiel]

An idea if a type of raid I would like to see using a current quest as analogy.

Stealer of Souls:

Main entrance=no timer
Enter Raid boss room, start timer and 1 min to lockout
Keep the 4 portals, but make them random, and all of the end runes in each area must be hit within a minute, making it impossible for one group to do 2 areas as each also locks out in x time, yet could shortman with 4.

All get to shrine, hit runes, and portal back to boss for buffs and beatdown. Have special loot in side chests, but raid loot in main chests. The special loot would be combined with the raid loot to give special effects. Each raid loot would have 4 different upgrades based on the catalyst. Ice area could give freezing ice guard to armor, ice II to weapons, archmagi or glaciation or cold absorb to items. Like shroud crafting, people would love figuring it out, and having the option to create something that suits their build better.

Now you can split the party, have some tactics, and everyone is useful. Randomness keeps it interesting. Teamwork, strategy, and customizable loot = win.

Normal would be for the ungeared newbies, hard for gs users, and elite for epic veterans.

[Aeolwind]

Things like cha/wis draining attacks on melee, str/dex attacks on arcanes, etc would make it much more interesting than yet moar "str + con = win".

Cha or wis drain on every swing? Archers that are in accessibly far off that spam str/dex draining arrows? That would be like a DM attacking a dump stat and no DM would ever do that!

[I_Bob]

Who cares about first completions bragging rights? I want the randomness so it's not the same fight each time...

I took great pride in getting one of my guys good enough to solo the fire elemental (back when that was hard), and another one good enough to pull Sagrata into the NE corner without letting him see anyone else... And even if he DID see someone else, I could lock him down with intimidate...

I loved being a group, we'd pull Sagrata, half the group would groan and say, let's recall and reform, and I'd say, "No way, I can handle him... let's do this"..

And then I handled him and we did it...

I remember those runs - they were awesome - a real challenge - it's why I play!

[Yaga_Nub]

I remember those runs - they were awesome - a real challenge - it's why I play!

It's why I used to play but there's no real challenge in the game anymore unless you want to use a ridiculous about of resources soloing or duoing some raid. And while I always commend those people that do those things, I don't think having the deepest pockets, the most gear and the best min/max builds is really a challenge. But that's neither here nor there.

Actually my "killer instinct" for DDO has gone down since I came back to the game. That's why everyone likes to remind me that I'm Mr. Minus Ten Percent but before that I was the one pulling people's ass out of the proverbial fire. I'm not sure that we'll ever see the same level of challenge across the board that we did in the first three years or so of DDO but as much as they catered to the masses, I would love to see one update a year be dedicated to the hard-core. On top of that, I'd like to see the hard-core actually get over their elitest attitudes and start teaching noobs instead of scorning them. I'm sure there are some players out there that could be legendary if they just had the right guidance.

It's time for a new generation of players to step up, take the reins from Nick, Impact, Shade, Ghoste, Mr. Cow, Sirgog, and countless others, and take their place as some of the best players on the servers.

Someone especially needs to take Nick's place before his wife starts to beat him!
Luv ya Nick.

[sephiroth1084]

If he was lead designer, there would be only two classes to play (barbarian and healer), only one way to win all fights, and this game would failed years ago.

Nah. It would be barbarian and a hybrid bard/favored soul/wizard that can move as fast as a barbarian, but like a bard, CC like a wizard, heal like a cleric and have the SP of a FS/sorc so that they can keep on spending their SP on him while he gratifies himself.

I want things that fly and that can't be boxed in. And that move.... A LOT.

If they did all those things, you wouldn't need to have a boss with a bajillion HP because we would have a much harder time laying the smack down to it. The only reason they need a bajillion HP right now is the very fact that we can box them in.

Giants should just be able to step over us, dragons and beholders should just be able to fly over us, and a true Pit Fiend should be able to do both.

I really hate these INT 2 villians that we keep getting as BOSSES.[/quote]
Agreed on the movement points! I want bosses:

• that can fly over/around us, and attack from the air the way the abishai fliers do from Chrono, making them a threat when they aren't in melee (and making some ranged attack capability worthwhile).
• that can get out from a circle of players, whether by bowling us over and walking passed, or by knocking us all back (a la giants' swings), by jumping, flying or teleporting, via telekinesis or shifting terrain. It should happen often enough that players have to plan for that occurring as best they can, while also being unable to predict the monsters' movements (neither direction nor timing).
• that can be tripped or stunned, but that make doing so costly (ie. trip a big boss who, upon falling, causes a shockwave that deals in the neighborhood of 400-600 damage to all within 20 feet and causes a knockdown as well, etc...).
• with controllable aggro (ie. can be tanked by a hate/intimitank), but who will still be a danger to party members that aren't its main focus, whether due to its attacking when it moves, or due to AoE attacks, randomly targeted spells, or reactive damage guards.
• who get some nasty random attacks they can call upon, to differentiate one fight with the thing from the next.
• with the ability to heal themselves and remove negative status effects with some regularity, but who are susceptible to effects that reduce/prevent healing and that impose such penalties.
• who gain extra actions based on certain play inputs. For example, any time the boss is hit for 600+ damage in one swing, it casts and explosive Otiluke's that knocks everyone in the blast back and prone, or a flurry of blows attack chain any time it switches aggro.

[They should have 100% fort, even on normal, at the same level that heavy fort is available to PCs.[/quote]
Disagree with this. Being immune to crits hurts everyone, but not equally (penalizes some characters much more heavily than others), and being immune to sneak attacks is a huge penalty for some characters, and doesn't make for especially good gameplay. Not unless we get more abilities that can be used to reduce or bypass monster fortification.

[Scraap]

Who gain extra actions based on certain play inputs. For example, any time the boss is hit for 600+ damage in one swing, it casts and explosive Otiluke's that knocks everyone in the blast back and prone, or a flurry of blows attack chain any time it switches aggro.

I like that idea.
What's the running gag again? "The warforged sprung a leak!"
(So 50% fort, grease puddle when crit. Won't actually cause folks with fom to fall down, but the movement speed penalty still applies iirc.)

[Yaga_Nub]

...
Disagree with this. Being immune to crits hurts everyone, but not equally (penalizes some characters much more heavily than others), and being immune to sneak attacks is a huge penalty for some characters, and doesn't make for especially good gameplay. Not unless we get more abilities that can be used to reduce or bypass monster fortification.

Seph, sorry if I sound rude but you're about 8 pages behind. We've already hashed this out and I'll at least concede that it's a very unpopular idea. However, it did convince me that Sunder and Improved Sunder should reduce Fortification instead of AC.

[WarDestroyer]

What's missing, IMO, is abilities that leave lingering (possibly ever-growing) dangerous areas behind, and more 'you must kill this/these mob(s) immediately or the boss will wipe you' scenarios.

Something like a boss spawning a 20k HP fire elemental, and while that fire ele is up, the boss's fire attacks deal triple damage. And 15 seconds after the fire ele spawns, he covers the whole room in an Abbot-style Inferno (minus the SP drain).

Like Sorjek and his mephits in SoS?

Oh and I love SoS, that's a 6-man raid, IMO. A timed part with many different fights, mostly slash-and-hack everything, culminating in a boss fight against an old friend, dispite he's much stronger now. I love it.

[Diyon]

He is immortal anyway.. what does his body being shattered matter when he will just reform he doesn't care..

That's not quite how it works. An outsider that isn't native, when "killed" not on its home plane is banished to its home plane (depending on what you're going by, also unable to return to the plane it was banished from for a period of time). If killed on their home plane however its a whole different thing. On their home plane, you kill them, they die, and don't come back (beyond exceptional means).

Horoth (and other devils) are only immortal in the sense that elves in Lord of the Rings are immortal. They don't age and die of old age.


This is why we find Malicia on Shavarath after "killing" her in Enter the Big Top (I know the that quest was made after but the point still holds). After killing her on Shavarath though, she's gone for good. The whole can't return to the plane of "death" thing (think it's typically a year and day or something) is the reason they don't just come right back again and again after defeated. If this weren't the case Araetrikos would just keep using one of those portals to keep popping back into the shroud repeatedly after every time we "kill" him there until he wins.


****Apologies if someone else already addressed this I haven't finished the thread yet.


I want to see the Truthful One in a completely awesome raid where he's casting powerful spells everywhere, jumping around the map, summoning hordes of undead against us. Ooo maybe since he can fly, have a raid area where we have to run/climb to different heights and platforms in order to get attacks on him, with him attacking from range the whole time kind of like Velah but less ignorable.

[sephiroth1084]

Seph, sorry if I sound rude but you're about 8 pages behind. We've already hashed this out and I'll at least concede that it's a very unpopular idea. However, it did convince me that Sunder and Improved Sunder should reduce Fortification instead of AC.

That's fair. I know I'm behind and didn't catch up on reading the whole thread. Jeez, ya go away to the woods for 4 days and come back eating forum-dust!

I think a dev (Eladrin?) had mentioned that there was some consideration of doing just that with Sunder (maybe in addition to the AC penalty it imposes), but we haven't seen that, and still likely leaves rogues and, to a lesser degree, dark monks out in the cold.

I say we just force the devs to load-up Sirgog's raid idea, though with a pre-raid attached to it like Tor (big quest needed to flag, but with no reflag machanism required, yet incentive to rerun the quest).

[DnD3]

You forgot the most important thing.

How do you think can Turbine sell this pack to the major crowd if its...challenging ?

WoW's raids are A LOT more challenging and complicated than DDO, that doesn't keep it from being the number one MMO...

[sirgog]

WoW's raids are A LOT more challenging and complicated than DDO, that doesn't keep it from being the number one MMO...

IMO, DDO should keep its own combat system, but take a lot of encounter design lessons from WoW.

WoW bosses (taking the first tier of level 85 heroics as an example; equivalent of our Epic Dungeons) often last 3-5 minutes, yet the fights are designed in ways that make them constantly change.

One good example (and this is just a dungeon miniboss) can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s1HZ6mBelQ . Ever-spawning adds that remain dangerous after they die, a boss that (like the Titan) can't be harmed at all until you do something encounter-specific, and if you go all-out offense, you'll take so much damage that you wipe.

Like Sorjek and his mephits in SoS?

Oh and I love SoS, that's a 6-man raid, IMO. A timed part with many different fights, mostly slash-and-hack everything, culminating in a boss fight against an old friend, dispite he's much stronger now. I love it.

If the mephits were themselves dangerous and gave Sor'jek buffs that you can't just ignore then SoS would be a lot better. I seldom run SoS, but the last time I did, I ignored two of the mephits (Haste, Cold Retributive Damage) entirely.

[sephiroth1084]

If the mephits were themselves dangerous and gave Sor'jek buffs that you can't just ignore then SoS would be a lot better. I seldom run SoS, but the last time I did, I ignored two of the mephits (Haste, Cold Retributive Damage) entirely.

Actually, the last couple times I've done this, we ignored all of the mephits. Definitely agree that the adds need to be more dangerous.

[Riksha]

how about loot that gives us more slots so we can wear more stuff heh

[knightgf]

A new raid, eh?

Well, I can say this much, it should NOT be anything like shroud. Or abbot. Or titan. I'm beginning to hate shroud so much, abbot is included in the "Do not quest" list which composes of all of Necro IV, and while I haven't tried titan, I heard its pretty darn hard. Besides, even if I did not hate them, they are pretty unique in themselves and should not be copied over too much into other raids. In addition, it should no doubt be high level with epic difficulty available.

Perhaps the next raid shouldn't be gear specific. It should focus more on fun than it is on actual raid loot! Much like Tempests Spine, it won't have a timer, even for epic, just to try it as an experiment. The raid will be more focused on having fun than it is on getting nice raid loot, and being put on intense pressure and not to mention the more-than-normal risk of being blacklisted by the party.

What would be so fun about it? Well, I believe Turbine should create the REAL DEAL on dungeon masters much how valve has created the 'director' for their Left 4 Dead series. Each time you start this new raid, it will be a pretty different experience for the entire party. It could start in a jungle, a arctic zone, temperate, desert, or even a urban zone! You could be making a last stand, assaulting a mountain, fortress, valley or plain, assassinating a target, or doing other things! The outcome of the mission can also vary...it could just be a simple retrieve and return mission, or there could be surprises in it...either before, during, or after the mission, in both deadly and wonderful ways!

The raid will have a variety of elements that will be randomized and mixed in, but I bet if there's one thing you ask, it's "How do we make this into a storyline if its totally random?" Well, the storyline can go like this: House Jorasco has sent a expedition in order to recover a ancient artifact that discovered ways to create powerful curatives. You will meet them at a classified rendezvous point and from there assist them in whatever way you can to retrieve this artifact. Simple, yet blends in just fine. You might have to assault a location to get it, grab it and run, or they will already have the artifact and need assistance to fend off the defenders after them.

When people think raids, they think loot. Will there be raid loot? Yes there will. Will it be good compared to other raids of its level? No, but at least it will have a attractive feature or two to make it worth playing. No matter how randomized each raid instance is, the only factor that determines how many chests you get is difficulty, nothing else. Due to the fact that this type of raid can legally have all of its chests(And not a few or most) ransacked, epic tokens will start at a random value between 20-35 and slowly drop by a random amount and be all gone when the chest begins to be ransacked. It will be a good, and maybe fun way to get epic tokens, but not the only way. A few examples of raid loot for this kind of raid would include:

Positive Rod
+5 Scepter(Light in addition to normal damage, weight and such)
Minimum level 16
Heal(1 charge per day, recharges like a eternal wand but MUCH slower, caster level 15)
Major Healing Lore
Taint of good
Light Burst(1d6 light, 1d10 crit, also gives away a light source.)
Requires class: Bard, Cleric, Favored Soul (UMD: 45)
Description: A healing rod imbued with powers to enhance one's healing powers. It also gives off a light source and can only be used by those with some divine training.)

Epic Positive Rod
Same as above, except:
+6
Heal is now 3 charges, and recharges a bit faster.
Superior Healing Lore
Superior Devotion X(Yes, thats right, X in case we have epic healing spells!)
Light blast(1d6 light, 1d10 crit, on 20, swallows target in a blast of light, instantly destroying undead and evil monsters, as well as forcing others to make a DC fort save of 20 + highest divine spellcasting DC stat OR 20 + 1/2 UMD skill. A failed save instantly kills the target, a successful save means the target takes 100 light damage instead.

Blessed Water
+5 Throwing dart projectile (Comes in stacks of 20)
Deals 1d8 bludgeon, holy, glass, magic damage.
Holy Blast(On undead and evil outsiders monsters only)
Disruption
Banishing
Holy focus(Bypasses DR of undead and evil outsiders automatically with its enchantments.)
Description: Water that has been blessed to repel and banish evil outsiders and the undead.

Ancient Pickaxe
+5 Heavy pick(Deals 2d4 damage, crit profile 20 X4)
Metalline
Two-handed(So large that it requires two hands to use)
Descrption: This pickaxe is similar to the ones you use today, but much larger, requiring two hands, and is so durable it can bypass any material DR.

Epic Ancient Pickaxe
Same as above, except:
(+7, Deals 3d4 damage, crit profile 20 X6)
Bypassing(Bypasses any DR that can be bypassed)
Force burst

But overall, the raid I suggest Turbine does next should be more fun than loot, as well as something new and possibly more random to encourage more repetitive gameplay.

[altrocks]

I still say that the VoN series is the best raid overall. The flagging quests are fun (and big incentive to return on epic difficulty). You don't have to reflag every time you run the raid, and the raid itself is in 2 parts.

VoN5:
Constructs, fleshies and undead enemies = varied encounters, be prepared.

The Puzzles & Traps = Need people with INT (both the toons and the players) and be prepared.

Several chests throughout the quest, but not so many that it becomes an overload of loot, like Shroud.

Overall, a good combination of investigation, trial & error, combat and non-combat obstacles. It has the right balance and length for a raid (and at-level is both fun AND a challenge). Sadly, I rarely see people doing this on Epic, though I would love to give it a try.

VoN6:
Again, some INT is needed by the players. You need to figure out the right tactics, timing and group composition (truly balanced ftw). Most take 2 - 3 arcane, 2-3 healer, and/or a bard, and have a rogue or two along from part 5 with some physical damage types (melee and ranged) filling out the rest of the group. Many will have some evasion toons as well for the bases and leading in ahead of the CC. (Best balanced quest in game, overall. You actually NEED pretty much everything.)

You can't just run up to the boss(es) and beat them down with auto-attack while you go grab a drink (looking at you Harry). There's actual strategy and timing involved there, which is sorely lacking from many other encounters. HoX is siilar in this regard, but taken too far in that it ends up being 5% of the party doing work and the rest piking. In VoN6 you have everyone needing to do their part to complete successfully.

Yes, at-level it's still a very easy beat-down on all accounts, but on Epic it can be very fun and challenging. I suppose it's much easier to balance end-game content than it is to balance mid-game content (especially when you could have anyone from level 8 to 13 running it technically at-level with no xp penalty. Huge power differences there).

The other raids in game tend to be extremely formulaic, culminating in ToD. Some trash leads to a boss fight. Then some more trash and another boss fight. Oh look, a gimmick during the boss fight. We'll assign one player to deal with the gimmick while the rest of us just stand still and beat on the boss. Then a little more trash and a boss fight. Then you get loot. The quest itself is not challenging, only the mobs in it are. Making a mob challenging is only PART of making the quest challenging, but it seems to be the only part that is consistently focused on. VoN isn't like that and it's why I hold it in such high regard as far as Raids go in this game.

I'm certainly not suggesting copying VoN 5 and 6 for new raids. That's not the point. The point is that the type of thinking that lead to the VoN series is what's needed for truly good raids that are both fun AND challenging.

[crazydamage]

Actually, the last couple times I've done this, we ignored all of the mephits. Definitely agree that the adds need to be more dangerous.

The reward needs to match the added nuisance first.
SoS is a pain to run and almost no one runs it. Its probably faster to construct epic armor or festival armor than it is to make the DT that you want.

Chrono is the first raid where the reward is actually decent for the time put in. You dont have to run 40 60 80 chronos to get what you want. Odds are you will have it within 20 chronos.