Let's talk about the update 11 raid

[Backley]

Fix it, though, so I don't have to relog to get half my gear back.

The only thing I've had to relog to fix is the visual look of weapons. They already have the damage/magic effects, I just have to relog to restore the graphics effects.

Anything more that that I should look for?

Will keep an eye out more next time. And we should all make sure to bug report whatever is wrong.

[SableShadow]

Anything more that that I should look for?

Clickies don't come back (still), even after shrining ... and I suspect my resist DT doesn't come back, but I'll have to check my saves the next time some nubcake triggers the disjunction in eChains.

And we should all make sure to bug report whatever is wrong.

I hear you.

lol, yeah disjunction has lots of bugs involving it.

Honestly, I'd rather it was just a Beholder-eye class dispel now and again. We've had disjunction for how long? And it's still fubar?

[Mistycball]

I vote halfing raid boss.... I remember the hard halfing guy on early EQ who kill you with 2 blows and he was hasted

interesting ideas in this post.

Thanks shade

[Melt-emi]

I want things that fly and that can't be boxed in. And that move.... A LOT.

If they did all those things, you wouldn't need to have a boss with a bajillion HP because we would have a much harder time laying the smack down to it. The only reason they need a bajillion HP right now is the very fact that we can box them in.

Giants should just be able to step over us, dragons and beholders should just be able to fly over us, and a true Pit Fiend should be able to do both.

And bosses should have guards that come to his/her defense. And all bosses should have healing types that heal it. They should have 100% fort, even on normal, at the same level that heavy fort is available to PCs. I really hate these INT 2 villians that we keep getting as BOSSES.

I want my +1 back, i thought it was a huge, funny troll D:

[Yaga_Nub]

It's a hot topic for me. After years of arguing the same topics, and debating the same points over and over (and over and over and over) again, you occasionally just want to reach through the monitor and throttle the less-than-informed.

...
By all means, make suggestions; I'd like something better than tank n' spank or box n' spank ... but 100% fort is not a good idea.

As someone mentioned, there's already 50% fort on bosses on some levels so personally, even though I DO understand the hit that a rogue's dps would take, I think stretching it out to 75% or even 100% is perfectly acceptable. At 100% fort for a boss, at least on elite and epic if nowhere else, the boss wouldn't need to have an assload of HP. Without an assload of HP, now casters can get into the game more than they have as well. Rogues, at least well build rogues, will not have their dps reduced to zero with heavy fort. Indeed they would find themselves in the same boat as the rangers, although the rangers will have extra damage from FE most likely. Add in a boss that is scripted to move quite a bit and EVERYONE's dps will be taking a big hit.

There has got to be a way to reduce mobs HP while at the same time making sure they don't die with one swing. Fortification is the easiest way to do that as all PCs know because even the barbs with 1000 HP would be dying very quickly if they didn't all wear heavy fort items. But it's also the reason that mobs hit so hard. If we didn't all wear heavy fort by default then the devs wouldn't have to have a +100 STR mod on every mob in the game to ensure us taking lots of damage during fights.

Finally, people will always take rogues just like they always took rangers in first year of DDO. That's why you're in guilds and channels and have friends in the game. I'm not worried about pugs, if you can make it to 20 without meeting people that you like to run with and that likes to run with you, then you have a bigger problem than SA and heavy fort. Is that an optimal solution? Actually, yes it is. Raids aren't about soloing so if you want to get in them you'll find people that want you in the raid with them. A good player's reputation will always get them in a raid more than their class will.

EDIT - I just thought about this. Maybe the Sunder and Improved Sunder feats should reduce fortification instead of AC. Then players would have a way to defeat fortification on mobs.

[grodon9999]

As someone mentioned, there's already 50% fort on bosses on some levels so personally, even though I DO understand the hit that a rogue's dps would take, I think stretching it out to 75% or even 100% is perfectly acceptable. At 100% fort for a boss, at least on elite and epic if nowhere else, the boss wouldn't need to have an assload of HP. Without an assload of HP, now casters can get into the game more than they have as well. Rogues, at least well build rogues, will not have their dps reduced to zero with heavy fort. Indeed they would find themselves in the same boat as the rangers, although the rangers will have extra damage from FE most likely. Add in a boss that is scripted to move quite a bit and EVERYONE's dps will be taking a big hit.

Do you even play this game? Casters as they are now are great DPS and only idiots would only take one in a raid.

50% fort is a great equalizer, 100% fort is just plain stupid. It's a blanket immunity.

[SableShadow]

<snip>

/sigh

If you want to reduce HP, give him a % damage reduction that applies to popular and/or OP damage sources.

Now you've "fixed" the need to give a raid boss stupid high levels of HP without simply disabling class special abilities.

You can even add additional wrinkles, like specific damage or effect combinations that weaken the % damage reduction.

The box, think out of it.

[Tinco]

DDO finally needs a raid where the risk-time investment-reward ratio is bearable. IMO, most raids in ddo are a necessary but badly designed feature.

Shroud is a well designed dungeon, but it's probably the worst piece of content they ever created. The relation of the reward quality versus the risk of obtaining the mats versus the time investment is so far off, it's not even funny. This was true when shroud was pretty new and is still true today (it got easier to complete but the loot is not as spectacular ahead anymore nowadays plus hard/elite are still 'pointless'). The repetitive style of the ingredient grind puts most asian-influenced MMO's to shame.

VoD is a well designed fight, with the good old ingredients of different phases, some traps, a pinch of curses, some adds and big baddie. The loot-table is a bad joke though, the same goes for hound. And the old problem of countless repetitions at pretty low risk persists here, too.

Piker's Fate? No comments here, an utter failure in design.

ToD would have been a step in the right direction if it wasn't (again) for the loot-design. The idea of customizable rings for each spec is great, but we all know what happened: Every melee walks the path of the shintao monk and most likely the path of the frenzied berserker the same time. 70% of the rings are junk, 70% of the setbonuses are plain bad or still not working.

Now what is a good raid in DDO? EQ and WoW introduced big raids as evening-filling part-time-jobs that need a lot of coordination and (more or less) flawless execution to succeed with a reasonable high chance of a piece of loot per boss. I don't think that this should be the direction if DDO, but a higher risk at fewer repetitions with a higher chance of a piece from a somewhat decent loot-table would be appreciated on my part. Quest design has always been a strength of DDO (at least outside of raids), so I'd like to have an a bit more reasonable/smaller version of VoN5, Titan preraid (not the titan-fight, that's another design desaster) or Abbott with random elements/puzzles to give the players a small feeling of surprise every time they run it. The difficulty should evolve around a basic standard of dps/hps but mainly on the understanding of the layout, the concept of the puzzles, timing and teamwork.

[Yaga_Nub]

/sigh

If you want to reduce HP, give him a % damage reduction that applies to popular and/or OP damage sources.

Now you've "fixed" the need to give a raid boss stupid high levels of HP without simply disabling class special abilities.

The box, think out of it.

Ok but it would, IMHO, also have to reduce the damage of SA as well by the same percent. When sneak attacking, rogues do insane amounts of damage, constant, non-crit damage. They are just as much the reason that bosses have to have high HP as the dopey barb swinging his axe at him. How would it be fair to the other classes if we reduced the rogue weapon damage to 5 per hit because of this DR but left the +90 SA damage at full effect.

My friend, this one is going to take much more out of the box thinking than shifting the DR from heavy fort to a DR for a specific type of damage.

I actually think the easiest and most fun way to get around it would be to add in mobs that heal the boss but that actually have a reason to be there other than just as a boss healer. For instance, in ToD, I think Suulo should stop attacking people and run to help Horoth at pre-determined times. For instance, when Horoth is at 75%, Suulo drops like he does now, throws a few mega heals on Horoth and then goes after peeps. Then when Horoth gets beaten back down to 50%, Suulo drops whatever he's doing, calls in more people, throws Horoth some heals and then starts attacking people again. Same thing when Horoth is at 25%. Then when Suulo is at 5% of his health, he makes one last run to try to heal up Horoth and help him as much as possible before we kill him.

PS I would also take away that stupid 25% healing when someone dies. I makes no sense whatsoever or at least make it so that Horoth is only healed when he kills the person himself.

[SableShadow]

How would it be fair to the other classes if we reduced the rogue weapon damage to 5 per hit because of this DR but left the +90 SA damage at full effect.

"% reduction" ... "% reduction" != "DR" ... an across the board reduction in physical damage/spell damage/whatever. A percentage, not a threshold value. You've got Greaves; that thing, except for more effects than fire.

Maybe a particular series of events is required to remove some of his % reduction, quest events, oddball spell combinations, bless in combination with manyshot, bard songs, whatever.

My friend, this one is going to take much more out of the box thinking than shifting the DR from heavy fort to a DR for a specific type of damage.

Which is exactly why I didn't suggest that.

[Crazyfruit]

I'd hate to see a lot of the things you guys have been mentioning. Basically anything that tempts people into writing "Link your BB/Boots! Checking my ddo. Need 500+ unbuff hp!" or excluding classes. This is a big reason why many friends no longer play. Why can't everyone have fun?

On Orien these are the LFMs for a majority of epic raids, ToD, VoD, Shroud.

I don't click on any of them. Even if they're entertaining people (most aren't... unless you love hearing people talk about deeps or whining about stuff other players do), they'd stomp the boss down so fast it'd be no fun. And if the raids had such boosted stats to require all that stuff, the rest of us wouldn't enjoy them. I don't blame players for this problem, most are just out for easy completions because of the raidloot/20th design.

The devs did some interesting stuff with bosses in this pack, but I don't see almost anyone talking about them on the forums here. Don't forget to leave your feedback survey things if you liked or hated them - some would've made a cool raid boss IMO.

What I'd love to see is a lot of aspects from other raids again:

Abbot - Relying on someone else to keep you alive in Asteroids, while you do the same for them. Inferno with a big warning is a fun challenge, both when healing groups through it or using the island thing.

Chrono - Dropping everyone at a shrine when they die instead of feeling like they wasted an hour.

DQ - Lots of fun when she's running around slicing up people. Not much fun in a ball.

Hound - Some of the most fun I've had in DDO is when this one goes badly during/after the first round.

Reaver - This raid sucks now. Bring back pinball elementals! Ejecting people when they die is great though... not that ever happens anymore unless we intentionally jump into spikes.

Shroud - Part 3. Especially with a rainbow wall going around & no puzzle solvers.

Titan - One person up top, one grabbing crystals, and the rest of us are lumberjacks. We scatter for survival, help kill the mini forged as a group, gather at an intersection once they have a crystal, and spread out again once it falls. Fun fun.

ToD part 2 - Having to split up into two groups because of the shadow healing. Usually have archers and casters at the bottom obliterating (or sometimes tanking now) shadows as they approach, or all grouped up at the top & someone taking a shadow's attention when it comes close, jumping down, kiting & slowly killing. Lots of fun when people cross the streams. I especially like that the shadow group can continue to deal damage to the boss when there aren't any.

Von - Preraid on Epic difficulty with extra tokens reward. Just wish I could get people to do it more often.

[Yaga_Nub]

"% reduction" ... "% reduction" != "DR" ... an across the board reduction in physical damage/spell damage/whatever. A percentage, not a threshold value. You've got Greaves; that thing, except for more effects than fire.

Maybe a particular series of events is required to remove some of his % reduction, quest events, oddball spell combinations, bless in combination with manyshot, bard songs, whatever.



Which is exactly why I didn't suggest that.

% reduction is just another name for DR. It's semantics. In practice they are the same only the % reduction is a variable number not a static number. As long as it was a % reduction across the board to all types of damage then I think that would be interesting to see in action.

[SiliconShadow]

That has to be something "un-written" in the quest that maybe the Yugoloth setup some wards to Horoth couldn't Teleport away. Yet then how would that Explain SUlu leaving if you don't kill him or the other Devil Princes leaving before the fight starts. So many plot holes . . . so little time

He is immortal anyway.. what does his body being shattered matter when he will just reform he doesn't care..

[Tinco]

% reduction is just another name for DR. It's semantics. In practice they are the same only the % reduction is a variable number not a static number. As long as it was a % reduction across the board to all types of damage then I think that would be interesting to see in action.

It's not the same. DR 10/- gives completely different numbers for let's say these two cases:

1 attack every 10 seconds for 100 damage
1 attack every 1 second for 10 damage

[Backley]

Titan - One person up top, one grabbing crystals, and the rest of us are lumberjacks. We scatter for survival, help kill the mini forged as a group, gather at an intersection once they have a crystal, and spread out again once it falls. Fun fun.

Totally not the way I've seen/heard of any group doing it. Always been an example of '4 people with jobs, 8 pikers': 1 on laser control panel, 1 on lumberjack, 2 running crystals (bottom one staying in sneak mode in the crystal room to avoid bring the mini-WF out, and getting locked-in during shots 3-4 to get crystals 5-6). Only bring extra people on the floor if we want to move the Titan, otherwise they are all hanging on ladders.

ToD part 2 - Having to split up into two groups because of the shadow healing. Usually have archers and casters at the bottom obliterating (or sometimes tanking now) shadows as they approach, or all grouped up at the top & someone taking a shadow's attention when it comes close, jumping down, kiting & slowly killing. Lots of fun when people cross the streams. I especially like that the shadow group can continue to deal damage to the boss when there aren't any.

First I've heard of anyone killing the Shadows. Always just 1 kiter, 1 tank, and 10 people beating on the boss's back.

[SableShadow]

% reduction is just another name for DR. It's semantics.

Not at all. Huge difference between, say, Fire Resistance and Fire Shield: Blue.

In practice they are the same only the % reduction is a variable number not a static number. As long as it was a % reduction across the board to all types of damage then I think that would be interesting to see in action.

Actually, the interesting part is when the % reduction *isn't* the same across the board. Imagine a boss that takes full damage from, say, sonic but has 75% reduction to fire ... further, if he fails a save on sonic, his physical damage % reduction goes from 75% to 50% (RP it as an armor shattering effect, perhaps), but he's got a high save.

Now it's maybe worthwhile for a bard to be tossing sonic attacks while someone else hits him with a cursespewer, while someone else is trying to land yet another effect to knock his saves down, all in order to make him more vulnerable to physical damage so the rest of the melee can work his HP down ... you kinda see where I'm going with this now?

[Yaga_Nub]

It's not the same. DR 10/- gives completely different numbers for let's say these two cases:

1 attack every 10 seconds for 100 damage
1 attack every 1 second for 10 damage

IMHO you're looking at it the wrong way.

For DR 10/-

Ranger hits for 50 points - 10 DR for 40 points of damage.
Fighter hits for 100 points - 10 DR for 90 points of damage.
Caster hits for 500 points - 10 DR for 490 points of damage.
Barb hits for 200 points - 10 DR for 190 points of damage.
Yaga hits for 10 points - 10 DR for 0 points of damage.
For a total of 810 points of damage.

Time doesn't ever matter. What matters is the amount of damage you can do in any one swing of your weapon or casting of a spell.

Now change it to a 10% reduction.

Ranger hits for 50 points - 10% for 45 points of damage.
Fighter hits for 100 points - 10% for 90 points of damage.
Caster hits for 500 points - 10% for 450 points of damage.
Barb hits for 200 points - 10 % for 180 points of damage.
Yaga hits for 10 points - 10% for 9 points of damage.
For a total of 774 points of damage.

Now to get back to the semantics. They both reduced the damage taken by the boss. Thus in the general sense they are both "damage reduction." So yes they are doing the same thing just at a different rate.

[Yaga_Nub]

Not at all. Huge difference between, say, Fire Resistance and Fire Shield: Blue.



Actually, the interesting part is when the % reduction *isn't* the same across the board. Imagine a boss that takes full damage from, say, sonic but has 75% reduction to fire ... further, if he fails a save on sonic, his physical damage % reduction goes from 75% to 50% (RP it as an armor shattering effect, perhaps), but he's got a high save.

Now it's maybe worthwhile for a bard to be tossing sonic attacks while someone else hits him with a cursespewer, while someone else is trying to land yet another effect to knock his saves down, all in order to make him more vulnerable to physical damage so the rest of the melee can work his HP down ... you kinda see where I'm going with this now?

Yup but you should have explained it that way to begin with.

[Crazyfruit]

Backley, this is Sparkle Hi!

All scheduled runs for this month are full already, so I can't fit ya in to watch. If you'd ask on channel some people there have ran those ways with me before.

I can run Titan within the next few hours if you want to try that way, but we'd have to pug.

[Tinco]

Actually, the interesting part is when the % reduction *isn't* the same across the board. Imagine a boss that takes full damage from, say, sonic but has 75% reduction to fire ... further, if he fails a save on sonic, his physical damage % reduction goes from 75% to 50% (RP it as an armor shattering effect, perhaps), but he's got a high save.

I agree that these kind of synergistic combos are fun, but hard to design in a way that players can figure out such things of their own, are not too restrictive on party setup and make sense for the flavor of the fight. I kinda like the Sor'jek and Conjoined Abishai mechanics and they could be expanded I guess. Imagine sor'jek always spawning a few mephits (color = certain damage vulnerability for example) at the same time and as soon as you kill the first one, the others disappear. A simple game mechanic but rewarding when you succeed to communicate well in group.


[EDIT]

[...]
Time doesn't ever matter. What matters is the amount of damage you can do in any one swing of your weapon or casting of a spell.

As long as a fight takes a certain amount of time to complete and there are different attack speeds involved, it does matter. The 's' in dps is not decoration.

Now to get back to the semantics. They both reduced the damage taken by the boss. Thus in the general sense they are both "damage reduction." So yes they are doing the same thing just at a different rate.

It's not a shame to admit a mistake, you know. I'd have already forgotten about it, but this is a pretty lame response, sorry. The semantics of apples and oranges are not the same because both are fruit.