Let's talk about the update 11 raid

[grodon9999]

Don't go knocking ToD - Part 1 and 3 are still very fun and challenging on Elite.

I'm willing to bet it'll be a Xoriatish raid with beholders and all that other craziness, just hopefully won't be tank-n-spank.

[Thrudh]

Oh and keep the hyper-randomness out of the harder fights.

Remember when Shroud was new? Groups going for server firsts on Elite recalled if Sagrata was present because he made the part at least twice as hard. Hell, some PUGs recalled at sight of Sagrata for the first two or three weeks.

Getting a completion should be about skill, not about 'we won the dice roll before any other group on the server, we were first to get no Sagrata and no fast movers and then not stuff it up later'. And no matter how it's done, some random combinations will be harder and others easier.

NO! This is what made the Shroud great! Keep hyper-randomness in!

Let the losers start over if they get a bad roll... Let the good players take on the challenge. Maybe match the rewards with the challenge...

[Cyr]

FYI, shade, player weapons dont bypass dr/epic.

Not even the epic weapons.

Also, sorcs and wizards and fvs and clerics don't care about dr.

I thought there was an augment for that? I know I never would have tried slotting it as DR/epic is pretty pointless to bypass atm...

[Thrudh]

Most of all try to avoid a Gezillion hp endraidboss that just takes a long time to kill as the main obstacle.

This, we've got plenty of this... no more.

Make a boss fight be 3 dragons, one of which that flies (LFM looking for ranged characters and casters), one that has random aggro (he's the insane dragon brother!), with overrun so he can't be boxed in, and the one who can be tanked, give him tail attacks that hit anyone standing behind him.

[Thrudh]

Or, even *harder*, require high stats across the board instead of a couple high and the rest dumped into the basement.

Things like cha/wis draining attacks on melee, str/dex attacks on arcanes, etc would make it much more interesting than yet moar "str + con = win".

I like that idea.

[sirgog]

NO! This is what made the Shroud great! Keep hyper-randomness in!

Let the losers start over if they get a bad roll... Let the good players take on the challenge. Maybe match the rewards with the challenge...

Uh - at the time of the first completions, it was THE GOOD PLAYERS that were recalling at sight of Sagrata on hard or elite runs. They knew they could just faceroll part 1 again and have a good chance at a better part 2 pull, and were smart enough to do so.

The bad ones didn't attempt Shroud above normal at that time, and even on Normal they often wiped to him. (Remember, you couldn't be raised in part 2 at the time, and player HP were much lower than now). This was back when PUG runs were mostly parts 1-3.

First completions mean a lot more when they are 100% skill, not 50% skill, 50% 'w00t we got the lucky pull before anyone else did'.

[Rasczak]

If ToD had a similar part 2 to Shroud's part 3 it would have rocked. Time Limit or bad things happen, dungeon is dangerous so no dilly dallying and takes some grey matter, not just have one person kite while the rest beat down.

Maybe we can find out one day what the dev's intent for that part was because we aren't getting it


A New raid should be nothing like raids currently in the game, it should standalone exactly like every other raid currently does (Although ToD has similarities to shroud)

Give us a timer with puzzles, with party splits requiring team effort (Titan was my perfect example of this for pre-raid and then they made the raid so that only a couple people had jobs. If they continuously spawned wf so the rest of the party had to protect those running crystals and dropping pillars while avoiding certain areas that drew the titan's attention as well as gave us a more reliable way to position the titan...it would be my number 1 raid outdated eq or not)

[Dendrix]

Oh yea, and add this debuff to all players on entry on epic too:
Mneumonic brain hemorhage:
While under this effect, if you consume any item that provides mnenomic enhancements, your brain will expload.
(Drinking mana pots instantly kills you)

No for a reasonable challenge you should have something that affects all players equally. Give everyone a debuff that prevents any outside healing from affecting them. Self healing only.

[Khurse]

Or, even *harder*, require high stats across the board instead of a couple high and the rest dumped into the basement.

Things like cha/wis draining attacks on melee, str/dex attacks on arcanes, etc would make it much more interesting than yet moar "str + con = win".

This is a great idea, it's something I'd love to see more of.
Combine this with the 3 or 4 Boss battle (so you can't group up and have one mass heal cure everything) and I think it would be an awesome raid.

[Yaga_Nub]

I want things that fly and that can't be boxed in. And that move.... A LOT.

If they did all those things, you wouldn't need to have a boss with a bajillion HP because we would have a much harder time laying the smack down to it. The only reason they need a bajillion HP right now is the very fact that we can box them in.

Giants should just be able to step over us, dragons and beholders should just be able to fly over us, and a true Pit Fiend should be able to do both.

And bosses should have guards that come to his/her defense. And all bosses should have healing types that heal it. They should have 100% fort, even on normal, at the same level that heavy fort is available to PCs. I really hate these INT 2 villians that we keep getting as BOSSES.

[Khurse]

I want things that fly and that can't be boxed in. And that move.... A LOT.

If they did all those things, you wouldn't need to have a boss with a bajillion HP because we would have a much harder time laying the smack down to it. The only reason they need a bajillion HP right now is the very fact that we can box them in.

Giants should just be able to step over us, dragons and beholders should just be able to fly over us, and a true Pit Fiend should be able to do both.

And bosses should have guards that come to his/her defense. And all bosses should have healing types that heal it. They should have 100% fort, even on normal, at the same level that heavy fort is available to PCs. I really hate these INT 2 villians that we keep getting as BOSSES.

Also excellent points.
We've got (semi) flying Abishai in chrono, let's have an actual raid boss that flies/moves around/does something other than stand in one spot and let people beat on them with heals centered on teh tank.

[Dilbon]

Optional objectives that make final boss fight easier or give extra chests but require high ranks (yes ranks) of less often used skills like swim, repair and listen.

[Thrudh]

Uh - at the time of the first completions, it was THE GOOD PLAYERS that were recalling at sight of Sagrata on hard or elite runs. They knew they could just faceroll part 1 again and have a good chance at a better part 2 pull, and were smart enough to do so.

The bad ones didn't attempt Shroud above normal at that time, and even on Normal they often wiped to him. (Remember, you couldn't be raised in part 2 at the time, and player HP were much lower than now). This was back when PUG runs were mostly parts 1-3.

First completions mean a lot more when they are 100% skill, not 50% skill, 50% 'w00t we got the lucky pull before anyone else did'.

Who cares about first completions bragging rights? I want the randomness so it's not the same fight each time...

I took great pride in getting one of my guys good enough to solo the fire elemental (back when that was hard), and another one good enough to pull Sagrata into the NE corner without letting him see anyone else... And even if he DID see someone else, I could lock him down with intimidate...

I loved being a group, we'd pull Sagrata, half the group would groan and say, let's recall and reform, and I'd say, "No way, I can handle him... let's do this"..

And then I handled him and we did it...

[sirgog]

I want things that fly and that can't be boxed in. And that move.... A LOT.

If they did all those things, you wouldn't need to have a boss with a bajillion HP because we would have a much harder time laying the smack down to it. The only reason they need a bajillion HP right now is the very fact that we can box them in.

Giants should just be able to step over us, dragons and beholders should just be able to fly over us, and a true Pit Fiend should be able to do both.

And bosses should have guards that come to his/her defense. And all bosses should have healing types that heal it. They should have 100% fort, even on normal, at the same level that heavy fort is available to PCs. I really hate these INT 2 villians that we keep getting as BOSSES.

The recent raid bosses have been getting more varied.

eVelah has a movement component to the raid. Dull and predictable now, but it was a start. (IMO it would be better if the time between breaths wasn't fixed, so you had to run from the visual cues rather than just timing it).

Bloodplate in eChrono isn't really beatable if you ignore the adds. He'll heal too much.

Razor Arm can't be boxed in for very long at a time (even if we do just box him in).

Cojoined Abashai Devastator does at least require you to pay attention to his special abilities (this, IMO, could be done better by forcing us to react to all of them, and in different ways to each).


What's missing, IMO, is abilities that leave lingering (possibly ever-growing) dangerous areas behind, and more 'you must kill this/these mob(s) immediately or the boss will wipe you' scenarios.

Something like a boss spawning a 20k HP fire elemental, and while that fire ele is up, the boss's fire attacks deal triple damage. And 15 seconds after the fire ele spawns, he covers the whole room in an Abbot-style Inferno (minus the SP drain).

[Thrudh]

Yes, an occasionally flying boss would be great... Let's see some LFMs that looking for some AAs or more casters... Let's make that 6 ranger splash valuable again.

We should not be able to box in bosses.

[donfilibuster]

I have seen some new players like TS so much and get dissapointed by DQ and RF.
Von5 is more like TS in that it is a big 12-man quest.

Add to it that DQ and RF are usually not done at level for xp like TS.
Besides sands and gianthold were for long recommended as must-have packs, so new players would get them right after their time at TS when the f2p content begins to dwindle.
They'd be too high level to buy VoN (for xp) and still too low level for VoT.
Besides before Chronoscope it was the first time you'd find about raid timers.

On the othe hand, what DQ and RF had that TS did not was those quests were the big end of the quest chain.
Unfortunately having no other raids like TS kind of overshadows the role of those short raids and the preraid.
Makes you wonder how different it could be if Tor and ADQ were actual 12-man raids like Von5 is to Von6.

[SableShadow]

I really hate these INT 2 villians that we keep getting as BOSSES.

If any of the bosses were played by a player with any degree of skill, a well equipped party wouldn't even get past the first *room*, let alone complete the raid.

There has to be a certain amount of "No, Mr Bond, I expect you to die!"

They should have 100% fort, even on normal, at the same level that heavy fort is available to PCs.

...and I get to go find a different game to play while I wait (again, I might add) for the next mod.

Attributes on a mob can have a very different impact than attributes on a player.

[ebit157]

The gratuitous use of plurals such as "we" and "us" here almost ironically parallels the politicians and lobbyists flaunting of the phrase "The American people want..." solely to push their individual agenda.

[Yaga_Nub]

I would also like to see a raid that is big enough, and long enough, that splitting up into teams is not just encouraged but necessary.

For instance one smaller group, no more than 6 has to break off from the main group to kill a mini-boss, while the rest of the group heads into a castle to find and steal the boss' armor or weapons or whatever. The first mini-boss wouldn't be absolutely necessary to do but doing it before the end fight would make it easier to kill the mini-boss (maybe one set of stats if you fight him at the beginning and a second, tougher set of stats if you allow him to live). Same with stealing the boss' weapons or whatever, it wouldn't be necessary but definitely something a smart party would want to do to make the end fight easier. Before the two groups rejoins, there might be a third optional that one or the other groups could accomplish. I would like to see something like rescuing a NPC and for helping them they join your party to help kill the boss. It could be done like the end guy in Ritual.

I'd love to see something like that.

[Khurse]

If any of the bosses were played by a player with any degree of skill, a well equipped party wouldn't even get past the first *room*, let alone complete the raid.

There has to be a certain amount of "No, Mr Bond, I expect you to die!"


.

Agreed, but it is kinda irritating to see genius (or higher) Int level Mobs manage to ignore healers/casters/the Rogue Buzzsaw standing behind them so that they can continue to swipe at the 100AC toon standing in front of them that they can only graze 5% of the time.

I would love to see Horoth stand up after Sulo drops ,say "F this", teleport to the pillar he was on when we entered the room and start dropping Meteor Swarms . Or just fly around doing the same.