Let's talk about the update 11 raid

[TheDjinnFor]

Easily winning every time with no challenge isn't always the most fun.

What does your OP have to do with challenge? Arbitrary rules that discourage play-styles you don't like is not 'challenge'.

e.g. Giving the boss DR 100/(insert anything here) is not challenge. It's a statistical obstacle that can be bypassed with more statistics. A five year old kid, or a fifty year old man, is as challenged by DR 100/(anything) as a Korean pro gamer would be. It requires a minimal amount of IQ, and zero reflexes, abilities, or game knowledge to make something like DR 100/(anything) completely irrelevant.

It's about as 'challenging' as the infinite secondary Con damage of Harry's poisonous attacks: it's made irrelevant via pressing a button. If that's your benchmark for challenge, there's something wrong here.

[Schmoe]

What does your OP have to do with challenge? Arbitrary rules that discourage play-styles you don't like is not 'challenge'.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Many interesting challenges include interesting handicaps. Whether the DR 100/(whatever) is an interesting handicap is debatable, but it is an additional factor to consider when trying to tackle the problem, and thus is an additional challenge.

It's about as 'challenging' as the infinite secondary Con damage of Harry's poisonous attacks: it's made irrelevant via pressing a button. If that's your benchmark for challenge, there's something wrong here.

The Con damage isn't a challenge because Heal removes poison, and casters use Heal all the time, so the poison is automatically cured as a side effect of something people are already doing. If Heal didn't remove poison, it would be a more viable challenge (even though a small one). If Harry periodically dispelled buffs, it would be an even more viable challenge (though still small).

Forcing you to use particular types of equipment for success is an additional barrier to success, which increases the challenge. If you face an enemy with DR 100/byeshk, you are limiting the number of weapons you can use to succeed. Sure, over time people will acquire or craft a great weapon to beat the encounter, but that happens with any challenge - people learn to overcome or begin to power past it, and it becomes trivial.

[Dagolar]

Instead of just the usual slew of difficulty settings were used to, where the monsters stats just go up a bit.. Make the raid truely harder in terms of tactics, player gear required, player skill required, and knowledge required to win as we go up the difficulty settings.

^ This.
And no more 'take a quick nap' areas like Shroud pt 1, please. If it doesn't have any challenge or have any complexity, it doesn't need to be included.

[Ungood]

Abbot is run extremely frequently on khyber.

I have no idea about Kyber's Raid-PuG dynamic, so I can't, and won't comment on that.

Titan is never ran. Not because of the difficulty.
Because the loot is 100% outdated and worthless now.

Again, I disagree:
Chattering Ring and Seven Finger Gloves are both still very nice items, and not out dated at all. Not to mention how awesome ML 9, +6 Str/GFL Belt of Brute Strength is, as the next up grade won't come till 18th.

But, no one runs Titan at Level (Level 11), or Chrono at Level (Level 6) nor Abbot (Level 17) , these quests (when they are run) are typically ran by a buncha 20th levelers (with maybe a few lower level players mixed in for fun) just like VoN for that matter, but VoN gets run quite a bit on my server, still by level 20's, but run none the less.

So the last thing we need is another one of "Those" quests.

IMHO.

[maddmatt70]

(when they are run)[/COLOR] are typically ran by a buncha 20th levelers (with maybe a few lower level players mixed in for fun) just like VoN for that matter, but VoN gets run quite a bit on my server, still by level 20's, but run none the less.

So the last thing we need is another one of "Those" quests.

IMHO.

Thankfully you are in minority. The vast majority of players want more end game raids instead of non end game raids.

[katz]

Thankfully you are in minority. The vast majority of players want more end game raids instead of non end game raids.

at what point, exactly, did he say anything about not wanting an end game raid?

looks to me like he's saying that no one wants an asininely difficult raid that no one ever runs, for WHATEVER reason (difficulty, suck loot, lack of fun). make it fun, and make the loot worth it.

[Ungood]

But, no one runs Titan at Level (Level 11), or Chrono at Level (Level 6) nor Abbot (Level 17) ,

Thankfully you are in minority. The vast majority of players want more end game raids instead of non end game raids.

I know I should really not ask this, but I gotta. I mean it is killing me how these assumptions are made. So, you gotta tell me, how you came to conclude that this line somehow was against more end game raids?

Quite Frankly, I don't see it, at all, Not even of it's own accord (IE: taken out of context like you have done) does it seem to imply a request to remove end-game raids.

When put in context, in relation to what Shade and I have been discussing, I am totally bewildering as to where your commentary has come from. You have got to enlighten me as to how you have come to conclude what I said somehow meant that I do not want end-game raids?

In detail if you would.

[Calebro]

looks to me like he's saying that no one wants an asininely difficult raid that no one ever runs, for WHATEVER reason (difficulty, suck loot, lack of fun). make it fun, and make the loot worth it.

And that's exactly where he's wrong.
They are run, and they are run often. They just aren't pugged as often as the rest because once you find a quality group to run them with you tend to stick with them as a kind of static group.
And who stays at level 6 long enough to get in multiple runs of Chrono? Who stays at level 12 long enough to get in multiple runs of Titan?
Personally I make it a point to get at least one at level run of both of those during every life, because at level they can certainly be challenging and fun.
The next raid we'll see will be higher level, so challenging and fun, while being at level, is absolutely the kind of raid that we want it to be.

I may not agree with most of what's in this thread, but I certainly agree with that.

[Ungood]

Personally I make it a point to get at least one at level run of both of those during every life, because at level they can certainly be challenging and fun.

Screen shot or it didn't happen.

[Calebro]

Screen shot or it didn't happen.

Yeah, because I take screen shots of my "accomplishments" when I'm level six....
And as far as Titan goes, if you can find a couple people willing to flag with you at level, then those people usually don't mind running the raid at level as well because the XP is great and they likely know it well enough that it can be three man'd with no problems.

Just because you never do something doesn't mean it's never done.

And just to prove your point extra wrong:
1. When I tanked Chrono at level 7 on my AC tank that I'm currently leveling up, I stood there and never got hit, which I considered a decent test of how he was doing at the time. (And I tanked HoX at level 15 with the same results)
2. My first run of Titan this life was at level 12. We four man'd it with a max of 14.
I am one of the few people that puts up a 100% pug 10-20 Titan at least twice a week*, every single week, and 90% of the runs need a GT from Chrono/Tempest Spine because someone is 13th level or less at the time.
During those runs I make it a point to show any newbies around and teach them a little each time.
I offer teaching runs to people that want to learn it well.
Since I've been doing this, I've seen the number of pug Titans triple at a minimum. So I say again, just because you never do something doesn't mean that it's never done.

*although I must admit the one I did yesterday REALLY tried my patience because the newbies weren't listening....

And that reminds me Schmoe, just tell me when you want to learn it. I noticed that you were still level 11 the other day (OMG, how did you get flagged at level?!? It's apparently impossible!!!), and I've hit 16 now, so the XP run is out the window because you'll be power-leveled.

[Ungood]

Yeah, because I take screen shots of my "accomplishments" when I'm level six....
And as far as Titan goes, if you can find a couple people willing to flag with you at level, then those people usually don't mind running the raid at level as well because the XP is great and they likely know it well enough that it can be three man'd with no problems.

Just because you never do something doesn't mean it's never done.

And just to prove your point extra wrong:
1. When I tanked Chrono at level 7 on my AC tank that I'm currently leveling up, I stood there and never got hit, which I considered a decent test of how he was doing at the time. (And I tanked HoX at level 15 with the same results)
2. My first run of Titan this life was at level 12. We four man'd it with a max of 14.
I am one of the few people that puts up a 100% pug 10-20 Titan at least twice a week*, every single week, and 90% of the runs need a GT from Chrono/Tempest Spine because someone is 13th level or less at the time.
During those runs I make it a point to show any newbies around and teach them a little each time.
I offer teaching runs to people that want to learn it well.
Since I've been doing this, I've seen the number of pug Titans triple at a minimum. So I say again, just because you never do something doesn't mean that it's never done.

*although I must admit the one I did yesterday REALLY tried my patience because the newbies weren't listening....

And that reminds me Schmoe, just tell me when you want to learn it. I noticed that you were still level 11 the other day (OMG, how did you get flagged at level?!? It's apparently impossible!!!), and I've hit 16 now, so the XP run is out the window because you'll be power-leveled.

Any or none of this may be true. And well, I have hunters in my family.

Edit Added: Not to be rude, but also, your DDO profile is anon, so I can't validate that way either, so I'll give you a guess just how much I am going to take your word for it.

[Schmoe]

And that's exactly where he's wrong.
They are run, and they are run often. They just aren't pugged as often as the rest because once you find a quality group to run them with you tend to stick with them as a kind of static group.
And his comment about no one running them *at level* is the asinine part. Who stays at level 6 long enough to get in multiple runs of Chrono? Who stays at level 12 long enough to get in multiple runs of Titan?
Personally I make it a point to get at least one at level run of both of those during every life, because at level they can certainly be challenging and fun.
The next raid we'll see will be higher level, so challenging and fun, while being at level, is absolutely the kind of raid that we want it to be.

I may not agree with most of what's in this thread, but I certainly agree with that.

On my current life, I did two at-level Chrono runs, pugged, they both filled quickly, and both were easy completions. I don't know what the big deal is there.

I recently flagged for Titan, and I'm hoping to get an at-level run in before I move past it. This one could be more difficult.

[Schmoe]

And that reminds me Schmoe, just tell me when you want to learn it. I noticed that you were still level 11 the other day (OMG, how did you get flagged at level?!? It's apparently impossible!!!), and I've hit 16 now, so the XP run is out the window because you'll be power-leveled.

I hit 12th over the weekend, but still power-level territory. Hey, I am slow Tomorrow is PD night, maybe later this week?

[Calebro]

I recently flagged for Titan, and I'm hoping to get an at-level run in before I move past it. This one could be more difficult.

I know. I'm the one that ran you through it.

Any or none of this may be true. And well, I have hunters in my family.

Edit Added: Not to be rude, but also, your DDO profile is anon, so I can't validate that way either, so I'll give you a guess just how much I am going to take your word for it.

No one was bragging. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that they're rarely run, and never at level. I was simply explaining how wrong you were. Just because you don't do it doesn't mean it never happens.

[Ungood]

On my current life, I did two at-level Chrono runs, pugged, they both filled quickly, and both were easy completions. I don't know what the big deal is there.

Yer right.

I know when something is good, and boy it seems that this asininely obscenely hard quest desire is exactly what the vets in this game need, so, I think your absolutely right. But why beat around the bush of the issue?

I would love to see a 20th level raid put in, that made doing elite chrono at 6th look like a cake walk. I think that is exactly what the vets need, a good hard raid that makes doing Elite Titan at 10th look like child's play.

But 100/DR is not going to provide that, we all know it too. It would be just a quick matter of getting DR breakers and we are done, which vets have coin and time to toss at getting those exact things, so it would be made moot by default, and thus not a challenge to a vet in any form, unless there is no Breaker for the DR, like a 100/-, then we might be on to something. But if that was done, we all know the melee would whine that they were being targeted and that arcans were now ever more OPed because of that raid. blah.. blah.. blah.. we all know how it would go.

So, we would need to add in something like a 500/all resist, and immune to force.

But even then, still, simple enough that vets would just need to figure out how much brute force it took to win. And that is not challenge.

So what would make for a good challenge? Well.

What ya need is a good opener, something like Dying at the Start, so no ship buffs get used. Yah, that would be a nice way to open the Quest. Cleric Cap stone would just kick you out the quest and then you could not re-enter (Just so people could grief each other, gotta have that in there)

Then, just to soften up the players a bit, have an insta-break effect that makes all your gear un-usable (You could repair it at the vendor later of course), or maybe just Dinjunct them, like a mass cast of Mordkin's Disjunction, which would be tough, but not too harsh. After all, their awesome skill is not affected!

Now, why have it seem like there is so much Melee hate. that only makes things annoying, so balance out the quest a bit, we would need a nice ambiance of Anti-magic, or Wild Magic (Nothing like casting trying to cast Greater Heroism and running the risk of imploding a group mate)

Then, not sure, I suppose maybe drop a red dragon and a legion of 100 pit fiends in the first room?

[altrocks]

I'm not even sure where you're going with this. Someone said he makes it a point to do an at-level Chrono and Titan every life. You said, in effect, that you don't believe him. Aside from the fact that it's rude and unfounded, there's nothing inherent about those raids that makes it so unbelievable. Maybe in your experience you never see them run? I've never been in a Titan run, period, but I'm sure they happen. In fact, my guild was hosting weekly Titans for a long while until they all decided to get on a TR train.

I've seen a large number of Abbot pugs in the panel. The only reason I haven't gone is that I wasn't flagged. What is the point you're trying to make with this... that challenging quests aren't run by most people?

I see pug Abbots fairly frequently, about as often as I see Epic ADQ's up (on Khyber, mind you, not speaking for any other server). titans I will agree I see maybe one every few weeks, even on Khyber. I can imagine their frequency being much less on some other servers where people are still trying to get HoX, VoD, Shroud and ToD raid loot (which is, honestly, much more important).

That being said, they are still not as commonly run as the other raids. A few guilds may have them on their regular raid day/guild run list, but I know many guilds that don't even do anything like that (they seem to just run pugs within the guilds).

I'm not going to go into the reasons for why very extensively, but the flagging issues and difficulties with both Titan and Abbot are pretty obvious ones. The lack of good loot from Titan (and the extreme rarity of the one really good raid item) is another common/obvious issue. The mini-games/puzzles in Abbot also have an extremely steep learning curve. While Asteroids is a fairly decent one that you can pick up reliably within a run or two, Ice is difficult to do in the intended way and always ends up being run through by a 20 Cleric or a monk simply because it's much easier and more reliable. Goggles, however... There might be a couple dozen people on all of Khyber who can actually do it without dual-boxing. Maybe. And most of them don't bother to teach anyone else how to do it, usually in the name of "We just want to complete this quickly, no time to hand-hold." Add in the lag factor, even when dual-boxing it and it can be quite troublesome unless you've already run it a million times. And on top of all that, the Abbot fight is pretty much a joke at this point. He does not present a real challenge to most groups, even on elite (and now I see from the latest known issues that he is not scaling correctly on any difficulty). Titan also suffers from the boring/uninteresting problem, sadly.

Those are the plainly obvious reasons. Do some of those apply to Shroud, Hound, VoD, ToD, ADQ and VoN? Of course they do, but those raids offer good loot at a somewhat reasonable drop rate (and in the case of VoN & ADQ, an epic level setting with corresponding loot).

If you're actually arguing that Titan and Abbot are run as often as the other raids, then you're simply trolling. If your point is that they are more challenging/difficult and thus not run as often, then I say this to you: Make Abbot Epic. See how often people run it and flag for it then. Same for Titan. Throw some good loot in there and see how many LFM's are up for them. Make the flagging less tedious (somewhat done with Abbot already, but it's still a pain and much more difficult than the actual Raid). If they were on par with the other quests, they would be run regularly.

Look at ToD. Despite being difficult to flag for and requiring some pretty specific skill sets/party composition, it's run much more often than Abbot or Titan. Why? Because the loot is worth it and it drops frequently enough to make it worthwhile to run it on a regular basis. If the chattering ring drop rate was upped to a point equal with the Torc or Ring of Thelis, etc, then maybe people would flag for it and actually run it regularly. If the Abbot flagging was simpler and didn't require so much farming (say, guaranteed static sigil piece drop on all difficulties and an increasing chance for a random piece as diff goes up) maybe more people would buy Nec 4 and flag for it and run it. Maybe make litany less of a farm in having to run it 4 times to flag for the raid.

All of those things could help get those raids run more often and those packs to sell better. I don't believe it's because they're more difficult, but because they're less fun and offer less benefit than running the other raids.

[Unreliable]

I would like a progression type raid.

Such as... 5 bosses, each more difficult where it takes a static team weeks to find strategies and tactics to fully clear it

Over time as people understand it more, itbecomes more like shroud (run quickly and easily) but those few weeks of tough strategy building would be fun IMO.

Of course with Turbines business module I doubt this will happen.

[vermentto]

All of those things only apply to 1 difficulty mode thats not intended for you.

Whats funny is your greedy enough to want to have everything for yourself. The game has different modes for player enjoy different things for a reason. the modes intended your yourself have none of that.

Theres 4 settings, not every one should be for every player. And the hardest one should never be considered the default for the most basic casual player like it is now for certain raids.

Do you mean , if i run daily epic quests , raids and end game content , it would not be intented for me ?
I can run any epic raid , and do it often , but not this one ? Coz its for the awesome shade ? and he would fell dirty to see other to be able to run it ?

As often , you speak without thinking , or even knowing your topic.Or giving clever or logic explainations.
But since you need a captain obvious , i ll do the job.

A DR100/epic is plain ridiculous.Few people runs with epic weapons , even people wearing epic gear like myself or my guildies , GS are much more common .And even these epic weapons dont break epic DR.So in the end , what you want is a raid where your barbarian with his epic sword of shadow would be the center of the world . period.
And anyone that is not a barb , couldnt even damage the mobs at all without epic weapon ( barbs could coz of vicious abilities from frenzy ).Your unhealthy obsession for barbarians is obvious in each of your words.

Mnemonic thinguie.And , as other pointed out , who will save your barbarian if something goes wrong ? what if there is a lag and a lot of sp on heals and raise are wasted and the remaining in sp bars arent enough ? what about players freedom to consume or not in their build idea.Most casters dont like to use pots ,bu they do , because , , they have a team spirit , and use their plat to save raids.And following your idea , why not forbid scrolls , healing potions ....or even spell casting , a raid for barbarians with eSoS only , with a passive regen buff bestowed on all when entering the idea .....

Weapons from raid .Again , what is the point ? except grind for grind.What if the raid doesnt have every weapon in game for every build ? you dont care , as long as your barbarian has his own ....
assuming no grind ( items freely looted in the dungeon like shroud part 1) what is the point ? no sense , no use.
People play the game to have gear , not the gear you want , but the gear they want.
Freedom , you know , the stuff people like in DDO and often dont like in other MMOs , freedom of build and gear , among others...

To finish that , dont speak about greedy or not.Its not greedy to want to be able to run an epic raid if i buy it , knowing that i want to have access to every epic , like i do at the present time , and run them succesfully most of the time.As previouly , its a stupid answer from a stupid guy.

In the end , i can conclude that someone that feels smart because he did a ( very bad and filled with arrogant and idiotic assumptions , like "barbs are the best leaders " no , best players are the best leaders .) guide about barbarians ( really , a very complex toon to gear and buid ...you can be proud of yourself ) , and feels elite cos he has an epic weapon and wants everyone to know it , is not someone anyone should listen to.
Period.

Now , i leave you to your monologue about barbs , their epic weapons, their awesomeness and how elite you must be to play it.Know also that difficulty is not about spamming big numbers thats need a eSoS to break , but about knowledge , versatility , reflexes and experience tests.Things you rarely learn as a babysitted barb.Or a forum attention-w****.

[Calebro]

key words, key for ANY raid/dungeon. once you learn to do anything, is easy to do. Its nothing special on titan or abboth.

Once u learn to avoid the firebreath, eChrono is easy.
Once u learn to kite the frost shadows, ToD is easy.
etc

i really dont see it a valid point to say "do raids like titan or abboth cause learn fix it".

learn fix all.

But they are different.
In any other quest/raid, a minor mistake made by a newbie isn't a big deal. You can recover.
In Titan and Abbot, a minor mistake made by a newbie can instantly fail the raid for you, because mistakes in those two are rarely minor, even if they seem to be. And this danger exists in multiple places in each of them. Those two raids are by far the least forgiving to newcomers.
That's the difference, and that's exactly why they are pugged less often.

[Truga]

But they are different.
In any other quest/raid, a minor mistake made by a newbie isn't a big deal. You can recover.
In Titan and Abbot, a minor mistake made by a newbie can instantly fail the raid for you, because mistakes in those two are rarely minor, even if they seem to be. And this danger exists in multiple places in each of them. Those two raids are by far the least forgiving to newcomers.
That's the difference, and that's exactly why they are pugged less often.

This. This also goes for ToD. Shadow kiter fail can easily result in a wipe. Luckily ToD is endgame, so people really want stuff from there and run it often.

Also, there's at least one or two titan pugs I see on argo per week. I join whenever I have enough time to run it, since it is rather lengthy, what with usually only 3-4 people joining, and then having to do all the puzzles. With 7-8+ people it can be fast and easy (as long as they aren't dumb, listening to instructions is often good enough even if it's their first run), but there's very rarely enough people, making the run not really any harder, but much more tedious.

Edit: I think as long as the loot is worth it, pugs will fill no matter how much one of "those" this raid is. Personally I'd prefer some puzzles and whatnot. I really like both von (takes some organizing with the doors/levers/etc) and titan, and I run them both whenever I can. Some people don't. Those people can have ToD, Shroud, DD. Those are all "endgame" enough and they're just beat everything up raids basically. Well DD isn't a raid, but that's just details.