The ship has sailed, but consider eliminating some ship buffs

[stoerm]

Agreed.

Make the ship buffs proportionate to character level. Ship buffs should not exceed other buffs available to a character via pots/wands, not by much anyway.

[Fenrisulven6]

OK I know you have a hard time comprehending what you read, so I will type slowly for you.
I have already outlined HOW you can identify players who dont fit your playstyle. I have already outlined HOW you can gather other players to you that share YOUR playstyle. I have already outlined what to do should you encoutner players who dont fit into your little bubble of what is acceptable and what is not. Go back and read the posts intead of looking for a reason to get snarky and insulting.

No. You have not. Thats why you are telling me to go back and read stuff you never wrote (or points that I have already debunked), instead of explaining here how you would avoid superheros. "I refer you back to my earlier statement" is the tactic of someone who didn't make a valid earlier statement.


I've been asking it the entire thread. No one has been able to provide a workable solution. Again:

"Explain how you would avoid SuperHeros. There's not a icon in the LFM panel. There's no way to tell until AFTER the quest is IP. Are you suggesting I join a raid, wait until after the first few enounters to determine if there's a superhero ruining the quest, and then drop group? Because all that does is get me on everyone's ban list. Its not a valid solution."

You continue to dodge my question while insisting you already answered it.

BTW, I'm already running my own PUG LFMs with "No TRs, No superheroes" and banning sorcs. And catching alot of heat from it in tells. We'll see if it works.

This is, BTW, the last time I will bother responding to you,

Thats prob a good idea. Your childish accusations of envy have derailed what was a civil thread.

[Graithron]

Quick questions

Is a low level character with +30 resists balanced in any way ?

Would you say that was game breaking for some game content at low lvls ?

If your honest answer is no to the first and yes to the second then there is a problem.

If your answer is the other way I would love to know how you come to that conclusion.

It's not a question of envy or nerfing or anything else its about game balance and how that effects us all.

[katz]

Sounds like you are agreeing that (IF my superhero-solo was successful) it would not be fun for you. Sounds like, if the majority of your gaming time was like that, you would be complaining that the game has become too unbalanced...

forgive me, but i think you missed my point. i don't normally LET someone "superhero". if they go slow... i'm with them. if they zerg, i am with them. it takes a truely exceptional character to really leave me in the dust and not give me anything to kill... and it takes more than a few ship buffs to make that character. is it fun when that happens? no. honestly, of course not... but i don't point the finger at someone's buffs. its their build, their skill, their gear, their DRIVE...buffs are just the icing on the cake for them. uber superhero characters existed and blew me outta the water last year when there were no ship buffs, uber superhero characters still exist, and still sometimes blow me outta the water now... but ya know what? i get blown away LESS now than i did a year ago, despite the buffs... my skill has increased. its not my gear, and its not my ship. feel free to myddo me. most of my characters are linked. i'm far from uber. and yet i prevail.

[katz]

Quick questions

Is a low level character with +30 resists balanced in any way ?

balanced? no.

Would you say that was game breaking for some game content at low lvls ?

breaking? no. unbalancing? a bit, yes.

the buffs are powerful. no doubt there. no question. but neither is it right to summarily take away what has been earned. altering the power of the buffs to the character's level is a good compromise *i think*

[donfilibuster]

Didn't read the whole thread but toughts are the ship buffs were introduced with the casual players in mind, not the vets and endgame players.
Casual difficulty was invented by update 5 just like the airships, along with a lot of changes and easy buttons.
The ship buffs, in that context, are meant to let people worry less about having a perfect build and gear and jump into the action.
It let you play with your guild without having to be worry to keep up with them, or to let you bring friends that are new to DDO.
The whole of the guild features from u5 had a big part on that.

I agree however that the issues are real.
You can substitute gear and consumables with the ship buffs.
There's the expectation of the highest DC on the high levels, and on builds.
There's the holding up before quests and wanting to do them in the least time and least trouble.
Yet most of those are player problems, it comes with being a MMO.

In fact, most of the problems with DDO come from MMO stuff rather than D&D stuff.
But having to have guilds (and friends) is part of the MMO.
The buffs were supposed to lessen the gap between the casual and the vets, not make it further apart as it appears to happen.

[Fenrisulven6]

forgive me, but i think you missed my point. i don't normally LET someone "superhero".

Its not up to you to LET someone superhero. Thats the issue. You can't control what they do.

it takes a truely exceptional character to really leave me in the dust and not give me anything to kill...

Are you on Thelanis? Those types are a dime a dozen.

but neither is it right to summarily take away what has been earned.

WoP were all earned. Is your position that they should never have been nerfed?

Its a perfect example of something people EARNED (much more than ship buffs) that was unbalancing the game. So I don't believe "earned" is a valid point. Just because the devs made the mistake of introducing Stormbringer to the loot tables doesn't mean they should let it destroy the game.

Regardless, I'm made my points several times now. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this. But I think you'll see my pov after you've been superheroed into boredom.



@ Beethoven. Good points. But its not just the ship buffs, its the combination of 1) them and 2) TRs with GS at asburd ML blowing through content to get back to 20 and 3) the latest Arcane power creep.

You at least agree that 30 point resists in the harbor is game breaking, yes?

Fen out

[grodon9999]

You at least agree that 30 point resists in the harbor is game breaking, yes?

Quest-breaking yes. Game breaking? Not at all. What happens in the harbor doesn't really matter.

But I do agree, the resists you get for ship-shrines should scale to your level.

[Shyver]

Quest-breaking yes. Game breaking? Not at all. What happens in the harbor doesn't really matter..

It does to that guy that just started playing last week.

[Ryu_109]

MY suggestion (and let me stress how this is in no way made to be insulting) if you dont like to play with people that have "super hero" tendencies, dont wish to play with +2 stat and 30 res buffs, it seems to make that there is quite a few supporters of that in this thread to... well i dont know... start a guild that only play with each other? no buffs allowed on ship?

just a thought...

[Graithron]

Quest-breaking yes. Game breaking? Not at all. What happens in the harbor doesn't really matter.

Why put it ingame then if it doesn't matter ? Why not just give everyone lvl 20 characters at creation if the lower content doesn't matter ?

Of course it matters it matters to the person who has just started playing or the person that likes to actually play the game not just blitz through everything like it is some kind of speed contest to lvl 20.

Just because you have ran something a thousand times and no longer enjoy it does not mean it does not matter anymore.

[katz]

Its not up to you to LET someone superhero. Thats the issue. You can't control what they do.

i'm not trying to control them. i'm keeping up with them... in more ways than one

Are you on Thelanis? Those types are a dime a dozen.

no. i'm on Orien. but interesting. perhaps i shall challenge myself tonight on Thelanis and see how it is.

[Requiro]

Quick questions

Is a low level character with +30 resists balanced in any way ?

No

Would you say that was game breaking for some game content at low lvls ?

Yes, for low level toon (<6)
"Only" overpowered for Mid level toons (7-13)
"Only" powerful for high level toons (>14)

<snip>

Thats why my proposal:

<snip>

• Any Elemental Resistance Shrine (never stack):
• For levels: 1-6: 10 resist
• For levels: 7-10: 20 resist
• For levels: >11: 30 resist.

• Any Statistic Shrine (Exceptional bonus):
• For levels: 1-2: +0 stat
• For levels: 3-6: +1 stat
• For levels: >7: +2 Stat

• Jorasco Healer (Always stack):
• For levels: 1-10: +5% more healing
• For levels: >11: +10% more healing

• Training Dummy (Competence bonus):
• For levels: 1-10: +1 to-hit
• For levels: >11: +2 to-hit

• Darguun Hobgoblin Warrior (competence bonus):
• For levels: 1-10: +2 vs fear, +1 damage
• For levels: >11: +4 vs fear, +2 damage

• House Phiarlan Entertainer:
• For levels: 1-10: +1 DC on enchantments/illusions
• For levels: >11: additional +1 Luck bonus to all skills

• Clan Gnashtooth Kobold:
• For levels: 1-7: +1 Profane bonus to attack rolls
• For levels: 8-12: additional +1 Sacred bonus to saves
• For levels: >13: additional +1 stacking natural AC

• House Kundarak Battlemaster:
• For levels: 1-7: +5 enhancement bonus to haggle
• For levels: 8-12: additional +1 stacking natural AC
• For levels: >13: +5 enhancement bonus to balance

<snip>

With these adjustment ship buff will be still very powerful. Why?

• Free elemental resist bonus mean: more SP for any caster, and one more free spell slot for solo game.
• +1 stat will be like you eat +1 supreme ability tome
• ect.

[varusso]

Why put it ingame then if it doesn't matter ? Why not just give everyone lvl 20 characters at creation if the lower content doesn't matter ?

Of course it matters it matters to the person who has just started playing or the person that likes to actually play the game not just blitz through everything like it is some kind of speed contest to lvl 20.

Just because you have ran something a thousand times and no longer enjoy it does not mean it does not matter anymore.

The players who want to NOT use the benefits can choose not to. The players who want to take their time and learn thew quests can choose NOT to group with powergamers. The vast majority of the powergaming crowd DO NOT want to group with these people either, and will not join those groups. When they realize they HAVE joined such a group, the majority will either leave the group and let them have their fun, or they will slow down for THAT quest, then leave when the group completes. There are a very SMALL minority of powergamers who are jerks and will go ahead and zerg the quest in a couple minutes, call them all a bunch of noobs and quit. While these types tend to stick in our minds the most, they are NOT anywhere near as common as the rest.

New players WILL run into these guys sooner or later, unless they solo exclusively or only run with a static group. But these players are *NOT* empowered by ship buffs, house buffs, etc. They are empowered by their months/years in-game, acquiring gear, builds, and game knowledge that ACTUALLY are what make them too powerful for the content they are running, even at-level.

I can run each part of WW at-level in about 5 mins without any real effort. That most certainly was NOT the case when i first started playing. Ship buffs have nothing to do with it; its MY gear/knowledge/build that does it. However, if I want to zerg a quest, I either start my own LFM with that as part of the notes, or I check when i join someone else's, or I just solo it. Most of the time, I simply dont feel like starting up a group, so I just join the group and go with the pace they set, content to have someone to chat with while i do WW for the 1001 time.

I actually make it a point to NOT depend on ship buffs. Why? one death and they are gone. All it takes is one idiot (be it myself or someone else) to over-pull and wipe half the party. Now here i stand, dependent on something I no longer have, in a quest that ALREADY kicked my ass. Not my idea of a formula for success I *DO* however use the ship buffs for convenience. I helped earn that convenience, and it is up to ME to decide whether or not i want to use it. The only one i really want most of the time is the XP shrine...but since I am already on the ship, may as well get the others too I dont expect others to wait while I get buffed. Go ahead and start if you want; I will catch up. If you get to a chest, dont wait for me. I dont wait for others when *I* am leading (unless their toon is somehow pivotal. We will start, you can catch up. if you take an unreasonable amount of time (for ANYTHING) to get in the quest, I will replace you.

If you are a day one player who joined my BYOH/zerg group, you will probably get tossed. Our playstyles simply dont match, and it would be completely unfair to YOU to allow you to stay in that environment; you simply wont like it. If I joined YOUR group, I am almost always glad to help you learn, without doing the quest FOR you. Some days, I dont feel like it, and I will just drop. I find the vast majority of people I run into in-game share a similar mindset to this. Do your thing, I'll do mine, and if they dont match up, we can just go our separate ways. If you turn out to be a real jerk, I just wont group with you again.

Every player has options to decide how powerful they want to be (up to the resources available to them) and whether or not they want to play with OTHER players of differing power levels. If you are dependent on ship buffs/house buffs/whatever, thats fine. Dont expect people who want to get up and go to wait for you. If you dont want to use ship buffs, fine go ahead. Dont expect everyone else to forgo theirs just to fit in with your idea of how DDO is 'intended' to be played. And remember that there are factors in the game which weigh FAR more heavily on the scales in terms of player-power vs quest challenge than ship buffs, up to and including the +30 resist shrines.

As many of the hardcore players have said, REAL zergers dont have time for ship buffs, so they dont matter. To those who then respond with 'well if it doesnt matter, then why keep them?" The answer is, we worked for them, and we want them, whether for ourselves or for our friends. If you acknowledge that they dont matter in order to use flawed circular logic that we shouldnt care if they are removed, in order to try and trick us into agreeing with you, then why are you so adamant about removing them?

[Yaro]

I know you missed me, so I'm back.

Interesting heated discussion. Love it.

To summarize the people who love the easy buttons - If you don't like them then don't use them and play with other people who don't use them.

This is impossible. There simply aren't enough players on the servers at any given time to restrict your LFM to a particular style of play. Furthermore, it's impractical to police. Pop on at any time and check out the LFMs that sit open for extended periods of time while people wait for them to fill. If on top of that you'd like to add restrictions on ship buffs or other twinking it's just not going to happen. Certainly there are guilds that have their own rules, but the reality is that you've got to PUG. As has been stated, dropping groups is also a non-starter.

Maximizing players' ability to group with others is absolute must for a MMORPG and I'm sure the people at Turbine know this. That's probably why they did all the guild stuff in the first place.

I see two types of "challenges" in this game, and both are legitimate as far as I'm concerned:

1. Maximizing and optimizing your character's abilities and equipment
2. Completing the quests

The easy button people appear put all the value on #1 and don't care too much about #2. I, personally, want both.

Most everyone agrees that the low- and mid-level quests have become trivially easy. I think I'm also going to make the argument that that's become the case for high-level quests, too. I ran the Shroud for the first time in many months yesterday and it was a ridiculous cake walk. If there's no chance of failure then there's no suspence, no anticipation, no requirement for teamwork. In short, it's boring.

For those that think the elimination of #2 is a problem (which will be everyone once no one is playing DDO out of boredom) what can be done about it? There is naturally only one solution to this: make the quests more challenging. And there is only two ways to do that:

1. Increase the power of the mobs
2. Decrease the power of the players

The problem with #1 is that if you do that you'll crush the ability for new players ("Adventurers") to complete quests. When the disparity in power between uber-twinked guild-buffed TRs and a fresh new players off the boat becomes enormous, which it is, and then some, then, short of separating these two groups by doing something like different servers, you're really left with only one solution: nerf the players.

The easy button people will be sad because they'll have their shiny toys taken away from them. They also complain loudly about how much longer it takes to complete quests or how they now periodically have a party wipe. Ultimately, however, it'll be better for the entire ecosystem, which means better for everyone. I remember when TWF was nerfed - People were coming completely unglued at the prospect of reduced DPS, and many were up in arms at the painful slowness of the swinging, but that's all forgotten and in the end it's made for a better gaming experience.

By reducing the power of the superheros there'll still be an opportunity to enjoy maximizing and optimizing your character's ability and equipment (#1 at top) while simultaneously enabling PUGs and preserving the challenge of the quests (#2 up top).

Now that we all agree on that, how to nerf the superheros? There are really only a few options:

1. Decrease the power of buffs
2. Decrease the power of gear
3. Decrease the power of abilities

The devs should probably do all three, however, this post was started because the guild buffs are simply an outrageous outlyer. They're also eays to fix or remove. Let's all hope that Turbine takes some action before DDO devolves into something resembling Farmville.

[Kominalito]

a person that just starts playing DDO today may not understand that the buffs are a huge easy button, but if you actually believe that making the game easier is going to make better players, you are high. its jusdt my opinion, but i think buffs should be trashed. it will never, ever happen, but i just think they are a way for turbine to make it easier for people to last long enough to get addicted.

[Ungood]

Explain how you would avoid "Super Heros". There's not a icon in the LFM panel. There's no way to tell until AFTER the quest is IP. Are you suggesting I join a raid, wait until after the first few enounters to determine if there's a superhero ruining the quest, and then drop group? Because all that does is get me on everyone's ban list. Its not a valid solution.

When I read your post, I wonder how much respect people would loose for Permadeath players and guild founders if they came to the forum and whined they could not play the game Permadeath style unless everyone else was forced to do so as well.

Permadeath is respected because they do their own thing, and don't impose their rules on others. They make their own rep for being the best. They set the bar to what a challange is.

So as others have suggested, stop whining here about taking away our toys and go make your own Hard Core Guild, that wants this challenge thing you speak of. Unless that would too much a challenge for you.

Sure there is. But reverse it so maybe you can finally grasp the point. I can duo VON3 Elite with you and superhero it, making sure you NEVER see an encounter. Everything will be dead before you enter the room. Is that your definition of "fun and enjoyable" ?

Make no mistake, when I first started to play, I had met my share of these "Super Hero's" and I was given a choice, I could whine that they were better them me and that they made all these quests too easy, or I could take up the challenge and be bound and determined that was going to be me some day.

But the reality is, there will always be top tier players in this game, there will always be players that are better at this game then you, or me, they existed before ship buffs, before TR's and before the level cap was raised to 20th.

Any game is what you make of it.

[Cordovan]

This thread has been veering off-topic into the realm of personal attacks and arguments, and needs to be closed.