The ship has sailed, but consider eliminating some ship buffs

[Requiro]

Eliminate? This will never happen (people don’t like nerfs, even if they are bored to death)

But we can ask Turbine to adjust them

For example:

Overpowered Resist Shrine for low levels.

How to made them not overpowered? Easy: No matter what resist Shrine is, you can always get only that amount of resist that you can get normally on your level. What that's mean.
On level 1-6 you get 10 resist
On level 7-10 you get 20 resist
On level >11 you get 30.

That all. They never stack.

For the +1/+2 stat bonus someone was give great idea. Made them Exceptional bonus. I will add one more.

On level 1-10 you can get +1
On level >11 you can get +2.

Nice and easy fix

[Stillwaters]

-snip-
ask Turbine to adjusted them

For example:

Overpowered Resist Shrine for low levels.

How to make them not overpowered?
Easy: No matter what resist Shrine is, you can always get only that amount of resist that you can get normally on your level.
On level 1-6 you get 10 resist
On level 7-10 you get 20 resist
On level >11 you get 30.

That all. They never stack.

For the +1/+2 stat bonus's -snip- Make them Exceptional bonus.

On level 1-10 you can get +1
On level >11 you can get +2.

^^ THIS

having the buffs based on char lvl means a lvl 4 toon actually DOES get scratched in quests

The stat buffs are not THAT overpowered but +30 resist in Korthos/Harbor/Market makes these missions seem WAY too Simple

Proof in the poison @ lvl 3 should be a REAL challenge, with some shield clickies and +30 Buffs its a JOKE!

EDIT: Leave the exp shrine in as-is tho.. It reflects that guilded players should be training you how to complete quests w/out dyin.

[Yaro]

I'm sure DDO would be loath to do this, but how about doing different things on different servers?

You could have some "easy button" servers where people who just want to fly from 1 to 20 as quickly as possible could grab all the buffs they want, and perhaps even some new ones! Then you could have other servers where the balance is restored and the progression more challenging.

The problem with mixing everyone together is that it's simply not practical to continually find groups that match your style of play. I've dropped from groups with an uber-toon who zerged way out in front essentially soloing the quest, because it's simply not fun running to catch up and not participating in any of the combat, but you're not going to want to do that all of the time. There's not a infinite number of people logged on at any time and, frankly, who wants to expend all of the effort to police everyone for their buffs? It shouldn't be burdensome and complicated to group. It should be easy. (Think of it as an "easy button" for grouping!)

People get sad and defensive when things are taken away from them (remember the THF nerf?), but ultimately restoring balance to the game is good for the vast majority of players (remember the THF nerf?). Different servers isn't going to happen, so removing the ship buffs is the best idea.

[Fenrisulven6]

You know, i REALLY get tired of people who blame their characters'/classes' failures on others, particularly when the majority of the problem is ACTUALLY in the laziness of the player himself.

Me too. So what's your point?

{Some absurd PNP reference.} Leaving aside the fact that this is not PNP and a comparison to an antiquated tabletop system has nothing to do with an MMO....

Actually it does. In fact, the comparison rings true for most MMOs, including DDO. Its the concept of working your tail off only to occupy barren terrain. Every game in my life has gone through the "powergamer ruins the game for everyone by working it instead of playing it". I'm guilty of doing it myself in AD&D PnP, Gurps, StarFire, Star Fleet Battles, AoE, Civ2 and 3, Mechwarrior 2 3 and 4, etc. So I have direct experience with this.

You want to keep making snarky remarks and feeble strawman attacks about things I haven't said, knock yourself out. But the truth is, if you were as sophisticated and experienced and as "leet" as you pretend, you wouldn't need me to explain it to you. You would already know it.

[muffinlad]

Ship buffs give advantages to guilds, and higher level, the more advantage.

All of this is factored into the decision on what buffs are given and when. Making low level content easy for high level guilds is part of the design, and the advantage of the product. Taking away from that reduces the value to the purchaser/guild, and that is never good.

Removing those advantages without replacing them with additional advantages is rarely a good idea.

Better, offer some other compelling advantage that is an either/or with the object you want to remove or reduce. The sad part about the ships is not that they offer 30 point resists and some exp boni, but that the list of things offered has stagnated since it was released.

muffinobserve

[Fenrisulven6]

I'm sure DDO would be loath to do this, but how about doing different things on different servers?

Man, I would LOVE a hardcore server. No vendors, No AH, no house/ship buffs. No favor rewards. No shrines.

I bet the permadeath guilds would move in. And all the players that want to go back to a game that involves something more than pressing autorun.

[justagame]

Yes, in fact, you are. By proposing to limit or remove the things I and my guild have worked to get. I take offense to people who feel the need to cry nerf on the whole game because they find something does not fit their specific needs. I also take issue with folks who throw out the 'easy button' argument just because THEY have been there, done that and now find the game too easy for THEM.

I much prefer OPTIONAL changes that allow for players to experience more challenge if they want it, while allowing everyone else to play in peace. There is no reason to have negative impact on the bulk of the populace for a marginal benefit to the minority. Things like ship buffs are optional. Any veteran player knows they dont NEED them; they are really just eye candy --they are already blowing through that low lvl content where ship buffs supposedly cause an imbalance. But for those who have taken the time to earn them, there is no reason to take them away. Its no difference than proposing to take away your GS/raid loot on your second life, just because your reincarnated toon didnt actually get them.

At the root of it, it IS envy. If you dont like having the challenge removed for YOU then dont use them. If your argument is that it allows some newb to power through a quest that he shouldnt normally be able to do without them, how is that NOT envy? Why does anyone care what Bob is doing on his toon? He's in your group, and it is somehow negatively impacting your fun in the quest? Leave. Start your own group with as many or as few restrictions as you like. Meanwhile, Bob and the rest of the group can continue on their merry way, running the quest with their buffs and enjoying their run.

In all probability, in a 6-man group, 1/2 or more of the group will be made up of TRs/vets. The gear and knowledge of those players will far outweigh ship buffs in terms of ez-moding the quest. Ship buffs only add convenience to that environment. If it allows them to run the quest faster, on a higher dif, or with fewer people, SO WHAT. It does not, in any way, stop anyone else from running the same quest any way they like, with any mix of player-types they wish.

Actually, this helps, I understand now. You didn't actually read my OP. You appear to have written a knee-jerk response directed instead at anyone who's cried "I don't have it and he does, so nerf it!"

Did I cry nerf the whole game? No. In fact, I typically argue against such cries when made from the perspective of just one character, and not the game.

Did I call ship buffs an 'easy button'? Not at all. I said they outweighed individually earned buffs, among other things. And by the way, your comparison of removing guild buff to taking away individually earned GS was a joke, right?

And I don't think a reasonable person would call the OP envy. At least someone who actually read it. If it was envy, I wouldn't state how I enjoy and use them myself. I'd want to nuke them all, period, and I wouldn't entertain ideas of changing them slightly, and I of course would be in favor of removing any individually earned benefit that I don't have. None of these are true of course.

Again, you're attacking a point that I didn't make. You supposedly took offense at me for the above reasons, none of which were in my OP. And while we're on the topic, if it's just eye candy, why the virulent defense of it, and attacking the messenger? I tried to make a reasoned case, and instead of disagreeing with my actual points (like many others did), you went on the attack like I was some kid who wanted to nerf the wizard that killed his ranger in pvp.

[Yaro]

Man, I would LOVE a hardcore server. No vendors, No AH, no house/ship buffs. No favor rewards. No shrines.

I bet the permadeath guilds would move in. And all the players that want to go back to a game that involves something more than pressing autorun.

No vendors? So only loot you find yourself adventuring? That seems tough.

No AH either? What do you do with the stuff you don't want to use or can't use? Just throw on the ground?

No house buffs or favor rewards? Including the convenient House P clickie? Surely those aren't that big of deal.

No shrines? Holy cow! Now this is really starting to hurt. Some quests would be virtually unplayable.

OK. I'm in!

(In the meantime, the ship buffs really need to go. )

[Ungood]

Man, I would LOVE a hardcore server. No vendors, No AH, no house/ship buffs. No favor rewards. No shrines.

I bet the permadeath guilds would move in. And all the players that want to go back to a game that involves something more than pressing autorun.

Don't forget, EXP loss on Death
No Re-Entry.
No Guild Levels, At all!
and make ALL loot BtC, so you can't twink an alt.

I bet that server would be a ghost town. Edit Added: But I would love to see them make it just to see who really would be there and how well they would do.

However, I have always thought there should be a Perma Death server.

[transtemporal]

1. They outweigh buffs attained by character achievement. For example, get house P favor, and you can purchase 20-point resists that last 30 minutes. Roll up a brand new character in the right guild, and you have an infinite supply of 30-point bonuses that last an hour. That just seems backwards to me. Another example, is run Amrath quests on high enough difficulty, and get the ability to purchase 15- minute potions of +2 ability boosts (with side effects). You'll be able to achieve this only at high level. On the other hand, roll up a level 1 (or 4) character in the right guild, and get +2 stat boosts right from the start. I realize the boosts in this second example are different, and they stack, which brings me to my next point:

Firstly, a guild that gets high enough to get these buffs has put in a heck of a lot of hours of effort to achieve it, making sacrifices along the way such as choosing renown over loot in end reward lists and putting time specifically into renown farming, as opposed to raiding, questing or loot farming. It's a collective achievement and not as trivial to achieve as you're making it out to be.

Secondly, any guild worth its salt takes its membership seriously. You don't just "roll up" a character in a high level guild because you feel like it. Membership can take a long time to come about.

2. The availability of the stat/dc combat boosts affects gameplay expectations.
when these buffs were first introduced, those defending them said "they're minor, they don't make a difference." But read threads these days that talk about high level spell DC needed, hp needed, to-hit needed, etc. More and more frequently, people will post things like "hitting a DC of XX is easy", but include in their number a DC buff from a ship, a +2 stat bonus from a ship, yugo pots, (sometimes store pots!) and the like. The difference between a 38 DC, and a 40 or 41, for example, is meaningful. Inevitably, content gets designed around the ability to hit a certain number. If you're not in a high enough level guild, though, you can forget it.

People have always included temporary buffs into build calculations but you're reading too much into it and conflating it in the bargain. Just because I add the +3 to hit that ship buffs give me doesn't mean I actually NEED that number to hit mobs or that Turbine design their mobs or quests around it. The fact that I can hit epic mobs without ship buffs seems to suggest thats not the case. The ship buffs just make it marginally easier.

I also don't know how you're getting +3 spell DC from ship buffs.

Mostly people add those temporary buffs to their build so they can say "Look how high my stars-aligned to-hit/spell dc is!" not because they expect that to be the sustained number.

3. They hold up quests. We've all been there. A group is forming, you're about to get rolling, and 1 or 2 people say "getting ship buffs". Groan. Naturally, you wish folks would buff before hand, but it wouldn't be a problem if #2 wasn't true. After all, if you're gonna call a caster's DC gimped without, say, the extra +1 to evocation and +2 to his casting stat, then he's gonna want fresh buffs.

This one I kind of agree with you, but only because the XP shrine is mandatory for any TR2 onwards and thats not because player vanity but because the XP requirement is so extortionately high.

4. Content gets designed around the buffs. This doesn't apply to buffs that you can get elsewhere (like resists), but to stacking bonuses. Normally, in an MMO, you need to keep tweaking the highest level content to keep up with the most accomplished players. But that usually means a CHARACTER that has earned xp, favor, equipment, and other rewards. So a dedicated player can always achieve more as the bar keeps going up. But now, it's not enough to take your character to the limit -- loot all the +4 tomes you want, craft your exceptional bonus items, earn all the favor rewards you can, and you will be behind someone who is simply in a higher level guild. And to those who would say "join a different guild", I say nonsense. Making your character "be all it can be" should be the result of what YOU achieve -- period. One shouldn't be forced to choose between a better spell DC, or better friends.

So you're saying that a character decked out in epic gear, a full set of +4 tomes and all the favor rewards will be noticably outshone by a similarly geared character... who has ship buffs? Lol, if you say so.

"The sorceror pulled aggro off the main tank! That must be because of his ship buffs!"

[varusso]

Actually, this helps, I understand now. You didn't actually read my OP. You appear to have written a knee-jerk response to anyone who's cried "I don't have it and he does, so nerf it!"

Did I cry nerf the whole game? No. In fact, I typically argue against such cries when made from the perspective of just one character, and not the game.

Did I call ship buffs an 'easy button'? Not at all. I said they outweighed individually earned buffs, among other things. And by the way, your comparison of removing guild buff to taking away individually earned GS was a joke, right?

And I don't think a reasonable person would call the OP envy. At least someone who actually read it. If it was envy, I wouldn't state how I enjoy and use them myself. I'd want to nuke them all, period, and I wouldn't entertain ideas of changing them slightly, and I of course would be in favor of removing any individually earned benefit that I don't have. None of these are true of course.

Again, you're attacking a point that I didn't make. You supposedly took offense at me for the above reasons, none of which were in my OP. And while we're on the topic, if it's just eye candy, why the virulent defense of it, and attacking the messenger? I tried to make a reasoned case, and instead of disagreeing with my actual points (like many others did), you went on the attack like I was some kid who wanted to nerf the wizard that killed his ranger in pvp.

Your title calls for an elimination of (some) ship buffs, and all of the points in your OP are about YOUR reasoning behind this. How is that NOT a call to eliminate ship buffs? Whether one buff, a class of buffs, or ALL buffs, this is what your post was about -- supporting the position of eliminating them, part of that because they overshadow things like House buffs. And you may recall that I AGREED the individually earned buffs are underpowered in comparison, though my view is that the lack was in existence before ship buffs were introduced. Ship buffs only shined the spotlight on that.

Referring to mass-game nerfs and easy buttons. They have been brought up multiple times in the thread. The nature of YOUR post falls under these guises anyway, whether or not you used the exact terminology. "I didnt use those words' does not equate to 'I didnt say that'.

And yes I noted that you said you use your ship buffs before you listed why they should be taken away. And as I have stated more than once, people who wish to stop using the buffs have the option to do so. People who want OTHER people to not use them do NOT have that option, and should not be able to force that playstyle on them (by calling for a blanket removal of the source). People who only want to play with OTHER people who feel that way have options to seek out and run with them.

Any reasonable person can see that worrying about what someone ELSE is doing on THEIR toon is envy, even if you can choose to do it on yours. Why should Bob have 'free access' to ship buffs (which as I have already explained are NOT free), when we have to earn less appealing house buffs, etc.? The solution is to fix the lack that always existed in house buffs, not to nerf the ships that some of us have invested a great deal of time, effort, and money to get.

I defend them because they are MINE. Whether or not I choose to use them is MY choice (and everyone else's). I like the convenience of having them when I want them, but they wont make or break any of my toons. They just make it easier/faster to do something I have already done hundreds of times. And if I am in a group with someone who doesnt have access to them, they are free to use mine. Not required TO or NOT TO, but they have the choice.

[Fenrisulven6]

No vendors? So only loot you find yourself adventuring? That seems tough. No AH either? What do you do with the stuff you don't want to use or can't use? Just throw on the ground?

By "no vendors" I meant that you couldn't buy pots/magic items, you could still sell your loot to the bartenders.

I'm already in a Permadeath guild, but finding peeps to group with is tough. Average party is 2-3.

[transtemporal]

Resist and +2 attribute buffs are too much under level 10. They should scale with the character level like the "Resist energy"-spell scales.

I agree with this, if any change were to be made. The stat buffs should become available as tomes do, +1 at 3, +2 at 7 etc. XP buff should always be available.

[Yaro]

Any reasonable person can see that worrying about what someone ELSE is doing on THEIR toon is envy, even if you can choose to do it on yours.

Perhaps Webster can help - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/envy:

1: painful or resentful awareness of an advantage enjoyed by another joined with a desire to possess the same advantage.

You can't be envious of someone who has an advantage that you possess yourself.

[Yaro]

I'm already in a Permadeath guild, but finding peeps to group with is tough. Average party is 2-3.

I've always found the Permadeath guilds intriguing, although it might be a little too hardcore for me. And I would imagine that it's especially difficult with only 2-3 players. That being said, I like challenges. I'm sure I could dig around for groups, but what's the guild name and server?

[Yaro]

I agree with this, if any change were to be made. The stat buffs should become available as tomes do, +1 at 3, +2 at 7 etc. XP buff should always be available.

That seems like a reasonable compromise. I just can't see many people defending 30-point resist in Waterworks. It's just make the entire thing trivial. Why even bother?

This also seems like it would be a relatively easy modification for the devs. I can't see the future, but I'm going to bet that this happens. Although my position is that they should still be scrapped altogether.

[Kmnh]

Ship buffs do two horrible things: They force new players into guilds, and makes them unable to deal with deaths. I've seen too many people recall after two deaths and start over with buffs.

There are guilds out there made of people that can't stand talking to each other, but stick around anyway for buffs and item slots. The good thing is that those guilds are easy to identify and avoid

[transtemporal]

I just can't see many people defending 30-point resist in Waterworks. It's just make the entire thing trivial. Why even bother?

True... but on the other hand, does it really matter that Waterworks is made easy? Its not like we do Waterworks because its new and fun and a challenge.

[varusso]

Perhaps Webster can help - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/envy:

1: painful or resentful awareness of an advantage enjoyed by another joined with a desire to possess the same advantage.

You can't be envious of someone who has an advantage that you possess yourself.

You most certainly can.
I didnt have access to that when I was a newbie to the game, therefor that guy should not have access to it when he is just starting. (See the whole walking uphill to school blah blah anecdote for reference). That would be envy. And it is at the heart of the argument, when you get down to it. He didnt 'earn' it, so he doesnt have a 'right' to it.

A person who CHOOSES not to use the same benefit, while trying to dictate the terms of how someone else can use it (based on whether they 'earned' the benefit) is displaying the most basic kind of envy, whether they are willing to recognize that or not. Perhaps you would prefer a sister-term, jealousy? Regardless, debating semantics doesnt change the facts. Anyone who doesnt want to use the ship buffs has that option, and also has the option to run with others who share similar views. No reason to impose that on others.

[Yaro]

True... but on the other hand, does it really matter that Waterworks is made easy? Its not like we do Waterworks because its new and fun and a challenge.

Au contraire! Waterworks is one of my favorite series in the game. It's a very cool quest line with some interesting scenery. I think it's disappointing that people would want to skip it, or anything else for that matter.