Devs: Crafting; Your Vision - Time to go all in

[Marten]

I have been an avid supporter of crafting but with the way that unbound is being handled I have questions, suggestions and even some doubts.

Its time for the Devs to go all in, share their full vision of crafting and stop seeing random gen loot as something that needs "protected." Random gen loot is now DDO's version of trees and mines, this is how your current design makes it and that is how you should start seeing it.

Concerning weapons, random loot is important to those that are just getting started, don't own the Shroud AP and monks. So, who are you protecting random gen for? Balance? That ship sailed with Green Steel.

Part of the allure of crafting is to finally make that perfect item to complete your set in conjunction with named items, raid items and and finally epic items. It would also be nice to make a living as a crafter by making shards that others can use and may be even have a need to reuse (buy-more).

If what I am seeing and reading is true and there is only 150 levels, unbound items start 30 level higher than bound, that some items can't even be crafted at level 75 (some greater banes, smiting, etc) and that the unbound versions of them would never be possible, then what's the point of unbound? Why invest the time and resources into a system that will not let you make the items that are most desired, most profitable?

Frankly I think unbound items should be the same level of crafting just a slightly different crafting process and many more essences required.

If your concern is that eventually everyone would have the best of the best with no decay, then you need to design in decay of some type. Have unbound crafted base items have slots like guild slots, unbound shards can go in these and have a 7 day timer (decay without losing your silver base item) or simply prevent crafted unbound items from being ritually bound so as to prevent damage/decay or some other measure but everything that is in the random gen table should be craftable for both bound and unbound items.

Frankly its hard to give suggestions with no idea of the direction of crafting in general.
Are you going to allow all aspects of random loot to be crafted?
If no, why?
If yes, will this only be true for bound items?
If yes, why?
What are you plans on disposables and/or consumables?

I would like to stay an avid supporter of crafting, but I need your help to do so and in return I will keep making positive constructive suggestions.

I thank you for your time reading this post.

[Aeolwind]

Well said Marten.

[pjw]

I would also like to get:

- an indication of how clickies will work
- some statement about how they see the resource requirements shaping up
- an indication if crafting is likely to make it into other areas: eg. Crafttable raid loot etc

[Khimberlhyte]

If your concern is that eventually everyone would have the best of the best with no decay, then you need to design in decay of some type. Have unbound crafted base items have slots like guild slots, unbound shards can go in these and have a 7 day timer (decay without losing your silver base item) or simply prevent crafted unbound items from being ritually bound so as to prevent damage/decay or some other measure but everything that is in the random gen table should be craftable for both bound and unbound items.

I don't use guild slots because they are a nuisance, just like I usually don't bother with ship buffs. Why would I want to waste gaming time and materials crafting weapons and gear that could time-out during a quest, for which I have to babysit a timer and recraft on a regular basis?

That idea would kill crafting, by reducing the value of most crafted items to nil, especially since named items are still generally better. Really, how many items are there that you can craft that even come close to touching existing items such as the Garments of Equilibrium, the Sora Kell set, the Anger's Wrath set, or the Sceptre of Fleshshaping, let alone greensteel?

Crafting allows some flexibility in slotting items, and offers good twink gear for people who have enough high level characters and plat to grind out decent crafting levels. Apart from that, any p2p player on their first character is mostly going to be far better off with random lootgen / brokers and named items from quests, with a few exceptions. Sharn gives nice ML2 weapons. Red Fens gives ML7, +4 stat items that also offer a useful set bonus. A +4 stat requires crafting level 50 (so crafting level 40 to try it). Good luck hitting crafting level 40 on your first character anytime before level cap.

Crafting is not overpowered by any means. If anything, it offers very little to new players, while giving more toys and twink options to people who can already build greensteel and who have a tidy collection of named items and raid loot.

[Junts]

I have been an avid supporter of crafting but with the way that unbound is being handled I have questions, suggestions and even some doubts.

Its time for the Devs to go all in, share their full vision of crafting and stop seeing random gen loot as something that needs "protected." Random gen loot is now DDO's version of trees and mines, this is how your current design makes it and that is how you should start seeing it.

Concerning weapons, random loot is important to those that are just getting started, don't own the Shroud AP and monks. So, who are you protecting random gen for? Balance? That ship sailed with Green Steel.

Part of the allure of crafting is to finally make that perfect item to complete your set in conjunction with named items, raid items and and finally epic items. It would also be nice to make a living as a crafter by making shards that others can use and may be even have a need to reuse (buy-more).

If what I am seeing and reading is true and there is only 150 levels, unbound items start 30 level higher than bound, that some items can't even be crafted at level 75 (some greater banes, smiting, etc) and that the unbound versions of them would never be possible, then what's the point of unbound? Why invest the time and resources into a system that will not let you make the items that are most desired, most profitable?

Frankly I think unbound items should be the same level of crafting just a slightly different crafting process and many more essences required.

If your concern is that eventually everyone would have the best of the best with no decay, then you need to design in decay of some type. Have unbound crafted base items have slots like guild slots, unbound shards can go in these and have a 7 day timer (decay without losing your silver base item) or simply prevent crafted unbound items from being ritually bound so as to prevent damage/decay or some other measure but everything that is in the random gen table should be craftable for both bound and unbound items.

Frankly its hard to give suggestions with no idea of the direction of crafting in general.
Are you going to allow all aspects of random loot to be crafted?
If no, why?
If yes, will this only be true for bound items?
If yes, why?
What are you plans on disposables and/or consumables?

I would like to stay an avid supporter of crafting, but I need your help to do so and in return I will keep making positive constructive suggestions.

I thank you for your time reading this post.

Unbound shards are double their bound level, so the stuff we can currently make now with our maxed crafters is exactly and only what will ever be available unbound.

That means that everything that's still to be made available via bound crafting (+6 stats, better than +12 potential, smiting/banishing/disrupting, etc etc) will be exclusively for bound crafting.

[Dragavon]

I don not think the devs have any vision whatsoever.

They recognised that some form of crafting was desired, and decided to try to make it something we do not cry to much about.

Right now they are way off the mark.

The inconsistensies and turnarounds since crafting was uploaded on Lammania proves I am right.

I hope it will be a nice addition to the game in time tho

[Jahmin]

I don not think the devs have any vision whatsoever.

They recognised that some form of crafting was desired, and decided to try to make it something we do not cry to much about.

Right now they are way off the mark.

The inconsistensies and turnarounds since crafting was uploaded on Lammania proves I am right.

I hope it will be a nice addition to the game in time tho

QFT

I would +1 you but we both dislike rep.

[aurum1]

The problem with unbound crafting is it is at once too expensive (in essences) and too cheap (in actual cost).

I leveled up on live to be able to make a +4 holy burst GLOB weapon for myself. Leveling at a moderate cost was 3-4 million plat plus a significant contribution to my carpal tunnel. Some could do it with less clicks for more plat or more clicks for less. Either way leveling up your own crafter is cheap...so many will do it.

From here I can make every single one of my toons these weapons for ~400 greater essences (315 for the shards of potential plus the actual shards). At ~500 pp a greater essence that is 200k per weapon.

Awesomesauce! Most of my toons will get these. Some others will get lame old holy regular banes....but almost no toon will be making a min2 anytime soon.


Now lets look at the flip side ---unbound.
Assuming the level cap progresses similar to what is has so far adding another 35 or so levels will cost be 4-6 million plat and another few nights of mindless clicking.

At that point I can make unbound +4 HB GLOB weapons for 3x the cost. 1200 greater essences ~600k plat in material cost.

Could I sell those at a profit?

Surely.

Will I?

Probably not. The market for essences will be borked. Since leveling is fairly easy lots of people will be able to craft...but few will have the essences. I can't go 'farm' some mines somewhere to get 1200 essences. I could maybe go farm chests I guess but still that is a ton o essences and my time cost will go up significantly. AH? That is probably a week's work of AH and market hunting and will have to overpay. So in the end I probably won't bother with unbound crafting since the huge number of essences needed for shards of potential will be too much of a pain to gather.

I really thought unbound items would require the special items from the packs. That I could see. Some other rare collectable I could see. Tons and tons and tons of essences? Meh. No thanks. I really don't see a vibrant crafting economy coming out of this.

[Cyr]

A more logical way to set up crafting...

BtC - Same component costs as BtA, but two ML lower then same loot random generated (or same as RR)

BtA - One ML lower then same loot random generated (or one higher then RR)

Unbound - Same component costs as BtA, same ML as random loot

The levels to craft all the above should be the same. In this way the tradability of the item is reflected on the power of the item much like how BtC raid loot functions compared to random loot. It also creates reasons for players to have their own crafters or mutliple crafters for twink gear and such while still providing the full set of crafting options for unbound gear (remember that ML higher then 20 loot has it's ML set to 20 until the cap is raised).

Speciality crafting items could be used to place more then the normally allowed number of effects and/or on different types of gear then normally allowed for an effect. Of course raising the ML as appropriate still.

Epic crafting could be integrated into the cannith crafting also as time went on for even more options...see my post in the suggestions forums if you are curious about my basic ideas here.

[My2Cents]

For me, I found crafting way too expensive in terms of required resources (essences) so after some initial testing on Lamma I've pretty much stopped. I'll collect a few essences on live for now and hope there's a viable, affordable crafting system in the end.

I had originally hoped to become a crafter as a semi-profession, but right now that doesn't look feasible.

Also, right now, since my expertise doesn't inform me as to which specific item(s) I might need to craft, I'm not inclined to just blindly gain levels "for later".

I can tell you on Lamma that even with the store available, gaining arcane levels in the upper 50's is so expensive matts wise its kinda turned me off.

I hope the future turns out right, I'm crossing my fingers...and waiting.

[MrkGrismer]

I think the devs have a vision but are being extremely conservative with crafting right now. I am hoping that we will eventually be able to make anything that can drop randomly, and make it as an unbound item (or shards at least).

Unfortunately it does not look like that is going to happen anytime soon. It could be that the devs have learned their lesson from green steel, and don't want to open another barn door.

[Yaga_Nub]

I think the devs have a vision but are being extremely conservative with crafting right now. I am hoping that we will eventually be able to make anything that can drop randomly, and make it as an unbound item (or shards at least).

Unfortunately it does not look like that is going to happen anytime soon. It could be that the devs have learned their lesson from green steel, and don't want to open another barn door.

What lesson did they learn with GS?

[Cyr]

What lesson did they learn with GS?

Apparently not the one they should have learned...that making very strong items in a game although they can pose a balance concern also gives a strong enough incentive to players to play content for much longer then they would have otherwise and by extension pay Turbine more money in the long run.

The Shroud is the reason why we still have DDO to play today.

[Yaga_Nub]

Apparently not the one they should have learned...that making very strong items in a game although they can pose a balance concern also gives a strong enough incentive to players to play content for much longer then they would have otherwise and by extension pay Turbine more money in the long run.

The Shroud is the reason why we still have DDO to play today.

Isn't that kinda of sad? A quest that came out 3 years ago is still the piece de resistance of DDO.

[Khimberlhyte]

Isn't that kinda of sad? A quest that came out 3 years ago is still the piece de resistance of DDO.

Video games as a form of art is something that I've seen come up in a few different places over the years.

One of my favourite movies is Casablanca, released in 1942. My favourite composers have been dead for centuries. Shakespeare died 400 years ago, and I've paid to see more of his plays than all other writers combined. I listen to 80's music on my (first generation) iPod shuffle.

Sometimes, old stuff is good. Wiz King and Chains of Flame have a lot more replay value than the Harbringer series. The Sands wilderness is far better imho than the Red Fens. Classic cars are not as good as new cars, but who wouldn't want a Duesenberg?

[MrkGrismer]

That's just it, green steel is perceived (whether for good reason or not) as the 'end all and be all' of gear in the game that the developers have to design everything taking it into consideration, and also take into consideration characters that do not have green steel. A 16th level quest really should not be where the 'absolute best' gear comes from. The fact that it is means that green steel is probably on the 'overpowered' side. But you can't unring a bell and 'nerfing' green steel would be a Very Bad Idea™. Obviously the devs don't want to make the new crafting equal to or better than green steel, at least not without requiring an equal (or greater) amount of grind.

If it offers equal to in both potential and grind then it would probably be fine, it would just be another option, but it appears (to me) that the devs don't want to introduce another loot mechanic that makes 'everything else' pale by comparison, and become a 'must have' for doing certain quests. Or make something that 'trivalizes' current quests.

Of course I could be wrong, it could be that they just like to mess with us.

[Merrill_Greeneshade]

I agree with the OP.

The biggest clue to me that unbound crafting is useless...

It's been unbound for almost two weeks and trade channel is still just full of "WTB Essences" and never "WTB Shard of X"

I'm sure somebody will just have to get on here to claim that they are selling a bunch of shards via auction, but on my server 90% of the shards being sold (posted rather) on the AH are at a loss based on the general cost of lesser and greater shards sold via trade channel.

[Cyr]

That's just it, green steel is perceived (whether for good reason or not) as the 'end all and be all' of gear in the game that the developers have to design everything taking it into consideration, and also take into consideration characters that do not have green steel. A 16th level quest really should not be where the 'absolute best' gear comes from. The fact that it is means that green steel is probably on the 'overpowered' side. But you can't unring a bell and 'nerfing' green steel would be a Very Bad Idea™. Obviously the devs don't want to make the new crafting equal to or better than green steel, at least not without requiring an equal (or greater) amount of grind.

If it offers equal to in both potential and grind then it would probably be fine, it would just be another option, but it appears (to me) that the devs don't want to introduce another loot mechanic that makes 'everything else' pale by comparison, and become a 'must have' for doing certain quests. Or make something that 'trivalizes' current quests.

Of course I could be wrong, it could be that they just like to mess with us.

I think the perfect solution to this is the combination of epic crafting and cannith crafting. Keep each as systems that can stand on their own, but make epic ingredients and epic base items possible to use in cannith crafting so that each individual component of epic crafting could be used as the key component in a recipe.

That would put the emphasis on people running challenging content (epic content) over farming for ingredients in lower level quests. Tying the top cannith crafting potential to epic insures that both cannith crafting retains it viability and that it does not offer top end gear to those who do not do top end content.

[Yaga_Nub]

Video games as a form of art is something that I've seen come up in a few different places over the years.

One of my favourite movies is Casablanca, released in 1942. My favourite composers have been dead for centuries. Shakespeare died 400 years ago, and I've paid to see more of his plays than all other writers combined. I listen to 80's music on my (first generation) iPod shuffle.

Sometimes, old stuff is good. Wiz King and Chains of Flame have a lot more replay value than the Harbringer series. The Sands wilderness is far better imho than the Red Fens. Classic cars are not as good as new cars, but who wouldn't want a Duesenberg?

I hear ya but we did have an upward climb in terms of content quality until the Shroud. After the Shroud, the quality and replayability of the content is just sort of meh and if they keep nerfing the XP for the quests then even the replayability comes into question.

[Cyr]

I hear ya but we did have an upward climb in terms of content quality until the Shroud. After the Shroud, the quality and replayability of the content is just sort of meh and if they keep nerfing the XP for the quests then even the replayability comes into question.

Agreed.

It's not just the xp either. The loot mechanic in shroud was very popular due to the knowing that if you kept running that quest you would get what you wanted. Then they just kind of threw that out the window came out with the most slot machine horrible loot mechanic they could think of with RR. After that it has been lots of named loot again with often mediocre and/or unthought out stats that don't make much sense together and some really horrible drop rates making the named loot lottery even more frustrating now then it was prior to the shroud.