Why do the devs continue forward with broken systems?

[Yaga_Nub]

Tolero posted that the ML issue with bound crafted items are not WAI but we still have not seen a dev comment on a fix and the next phase of crafting was just released on live. If the bound ML issue is now WAI then why would the devs continue to push out and/or enhance a broken system before fixing this issue. This isn't the first time that issues have been brought up with a system change and those issues has still made them to live.

Now this might sound like a ***** thread but it's really not supposed to be. I'm really interested in knowing more about the development cycle. True some devs have talked a bit about it but this is more for some of you that are developers for other games or other types of software. Is there usually a drop dead date that once it passes you really can't make any changes period, even if you know your customers will be negatively impacted by not making a change or holding up the release date? How do you value the impact of each bug you find and does the length of time that you've known about the bug impact when you might try to fix it. Do you or your people ever get so invested in an idea that you refuse to change it even after beta tests or initial release you find your customers actually hate the idea?

It's been a long time since I was involved with software design/testing/project management so I think it would be really interesting to see where people that are currently in the industry feel about some of the issues that we see here in DDO.

Please no flaming of the DDO devs or QA in this because it's not what I hope the thread will be about.

[floating]

i think they continue because they anticipate a thread about .... well wait like this thread.

[Thrudh]

Please no flaming of the DDO devs or QA in this because it's not what I hope the thread will be about.

Change your title then.

[SableShadow]

I'm actually quite encouraged by some of the recent "let's talk to the players on this stuff" that's been going on lately.

That and all the little things to encourage activity on Llama (Sir Pointsalot, easier character transfer system, the last character refresh).

[Yaga_Nub]

Change your title then.

Or people could just read the post before commenting. Sensationalism attracts eyeballs.

[sebastianosmith]

It quite often comes down to what issues effect how many users and management's desire to increase or sustain revenue. Given the option, I am certain the devs would prefer to cloister for a year and rewrite every single line of code in the game. That being an impossibility, the struggle between time, functionality and cost continues.

[Schmoe]

The unbound U10 content was already on the live servers with U9. You're just seeing activation of what was already there. A fix will require a change that requires development, plus QA, plus a patch to the servers, all of which takes time.

[Chai]

Specific issues or bugs get assigned a priority level. Some higher priority levels are defined as "fix immediately before release" and some lower ones mean "put it out and fix it in a future update / patch." If they went ahead and released something with known issues, its likely the issue itself was not listed high enough on the priority list to hold the entire update back until the specific issue was fixed.

[Cam_Neely]

I thought they were hickups in QC and other internal testing, but more and more I'm thinking that they do not see an issue with the amount of borked game that is put out.

I questioned the policy of asking the boards if something was working and the response from turbine was to thank the person that confirmed it was working, to ignore the fact that their QC is in part watching the boards response, not to apologize for the issue, then to drop a 'gift' of extending a sale.

Thanks for your help jillie! It's great to have community members who are willing to assist when we're looking for confirmation everything is working for the end-user.

We're extending the sale until noon EST tomorrow to ensure everyone has a full 24 hours to pack on the muscle!

The development cycle will always have hitches in the code. The fact that such a large amount of stuff is making it past the QC department, and being left ingame broken for so long is the bigger issue IMO.

*EDIT* this ofcourse is small beans compared to the ML, broken Green steel, Monk to hit bounus ect, but it seems to be a trend in dealing with these issues.

[Bodic]

new shiny works great for a distraction, and it is better to do and beg forgiveness, than not do anything at all.

I will say quality has gone down in my opinion why I dont know. the real question is why are they shoving a bunch of stuff we dont want/need/desire.

this could turn into a major thread drama.

[AZgreentea]

The unbound U10 content was already on the live servers with U9. You're just seeing activation of what was already there. A fix will require a change that requires development, plus QA, plus a patch to the servers, all of which takes time.

This.

They aren't introducing anything new, they are progressing through beta as they intended. They said in the beginning that it would be rolled out in stages up to lvl 150 to prevent the economy from imploding. The only fixes they have released either made it through QA quickly, or were discovered and being fixed before U9 went live. Apparently the ML issue wasnt recognized earlier, or is not a quick fix.

Given how much time and money Turbine put into developing this new crafting system, I fully expect the majority of bugs (like ML) and user requested upgrades (like multi essence conversion) to be fixed in U11 (which should be the next major game system patch). Thats baring unforeseen difficulty, of course.

[Khanyth]

Or people could just read the post before commenting. Sensationalism attracts eyeballs.

And feeds the cube.

My (albeit limited) understanding of how the update system works is that they plan for what months what update comes into being. So if an update is planned for say, june... but there are bugs from previous releases, that update will still come into being, regardless of bug fixes or not.

Think of it as different people doing different jobs and a company with different focuses. Resources may be allocated so that there is a greater concentration of labour focused towards new stuff, than fixing old.

That's my understanding of it all. Regardless, nothing will be perfect and no one will be pleased, so they keep on doing what they are doing and the beat goes on

[AZgreentea]

I questioned the policy of asking the boards if something was working and the response from turbine was to thank the person that confirmed it was working, to ignore the fact that their QC is in part watching the boards response, not to apologize for the issue, then to drop a 'gift' of extending a sale.

Why would you question the policy of a company to confirm with the customer that a fix was working and then take steps to compensate other effected customers by extending the sale? You would rather the company just assume it was fixed, and that the rest of the customers could take advantage of the sale in the remaining time? Having the customer confirm that it is working is basic QA, and customer service/tech support 101. Turbine didnt specifically use the words "I'm Sorry" but that was implied in extending the sale.

[Cyr]

new shiny works great for a distraction, and it is better to do and beg forgiveness, than not do anything at all.

I will say quality has gone down in my opinion why I dont know. the real question is why are they shoving a bunch of stuff we dont want/need/desire.

this could turn into a major thread drama.

My feeling has been for some time that the development team AND management at Turbine really does not value their existing player base and honestly believes that new players are the key to everything. The explosion of F2P pretty much firmed up their existing thoughts on the matter.

That's why raids got cut way back, new lower level content gets in the pipeline first, impulse buy store items are given priority, and new epics basically got written off for over a year.

My feeling is that the quality issue is tied up in the same mindset that doesn't really care if existing players who will notice the bugs are annoyed because most new players will not know any better. If a bug made korthos island unplayable I can't even imagine the dev resources that would be put into that though...

[Yaga_Nub]

It quite often comes down to what issues effect how many users and management's desire to increase or sustain revenue. Given the option, I am certain the devs would prefer to cloister for a year and rewrite every single line of code in the game. That being an impossibility, the struggle between time, functionality and cost continues.

Specific issues or bugs get assigned a priority level. Some higher priority levels are defined as "fix immediately before release" and some lower ones mean "put it out and fix it in a future update / patch." If they went ahead and released something with known issues, its likely the issue itself was not listed high enough on the priority list to hold the entire update back until the specific issue was fixed.

I totally agree and understand what you're saying here so I'm really hoping that there must have been some huge bugs that were caught and squashed before some of the other bugs that we've seen have gone live. I still still wonder about how modular the code is for DDO or any other system. I would like to think that we've advanced far enough with programming practices that while systems might make a call to one another they would still be able to handle the shut-down of a certain system if it was necessary. Isn't that really what the dream of OO coding was; lots of little modules that only called each other when necessary?

[Gkar]

Or people could just read the post before commenting. Sensationalism attracts eyeballs.

player eyeballs.
forum mod eyeballs.

I'm sure if I was a dev I'd skip the thread as another attack thread.

[Yaga_Nub]

player eyeballs.
forum mod eyeballs.

I'm sure if I was a dev I'd skip the thread as another attack thread.

I would hope so. I'm not interested in their input. I'm interested in input from people that don't work for Turbine but that do work in the software development field.

[sebastianosmith]

My feeling has been for some time that the development team AND management at Turbine really does not value their existing player base and honestly believes that new players are the key to everything. The explosion of F2P pretty much firmed up their existing thoughts on the matter.

I don't want to be the one to pee in the lemonade, but Turbine is in the business of making a profit. As most players progress, obtain better, more powerful gear and have several toons on different servers farming favor, they tend to spend less and less on Turbine Points. While such players may represent the "Best of the Best" when it comes to game play, they are not so in the revenue department. Since Turbine was acquired by Time Warner, profit has become even more important as the shareholder base is much larger. If long-standing members of the DDO community really want to influence the game, they need to lay out the bucks because money talks. Simple as that.

[SableShadow]

Isn't that really what the dream of OO coding was; lots of little modules that only called each other when necessary?

Still waiting on my flying car, too.

[Cyr]

I don't want to be the one to pee in the lemonade, but Turbine is in the business of making a profit. As most players progress, obtain better, more powerful gear and have several toons on different servers farming favor, they tend to spend less and less on Turbine Points. While such players may represent the "Best of the Best" when it comes to game play, they are not so in the revenue department. Since Turbine was acquired by Time Warner, profit has become even more important as the shareholder base is much larger. If long-standing members of the DDO community really want to influence the game, they need to lay out the bucks because money talks. Simple as that.

I could list the misconceptions in the above post one by one, but I'll restrain myself as I've posted on this subject many times before and merely leave you with the following...

Turbine's profits from existing players is directly tied to the amount of content they produce per unit time that appeals to them.