Epic Item Review: Red Fens

[sirgog]

The DPS calculation methods used by DDO players are archaic and quite frankly a lot of guesswork. If Turbine really wanted players to compare DPS, they'd provide a DPS value when inspecting a weapon (modified for the feats you have) and/or offer a way to save timestamped combat events to a file so it can be parsed. That's the only true way to measure actual DPS compared to the theorycraft.

Agreed, but you can come up with reasonable estimates. A 100k HP dummy with stats imported from specific bosses would do the job too and is probably easier to code than combat log parses (and 100k is enough to make lucky streaks like getting three Lightning Strikes in 10 swings less relevant).

Still, you can clearly calculate that, assuming an eSOS wielder attacking a typical foe, Ravager set > eClaw set > Eternal Flame > 'classic' Claw set = Frenzied Berserker set (on a non-barb). It's harder to compare these effects to indirect conditional DPS increases such as Destruction, but those comparisons are a lot easier than trying to rank defensive effects.


Oh and my thoughts on the Greatclub of the Scrag:

Base Damage: 6d10
+6
Crit profile: Remains awful
Impact
Anarchic Burst
Icy Burst
Superior Regeneration (5hp per 6 seconds through positive energy)
Red Augment Slot

Still 30 damage per swing behind the eSOS on 0% Fort and 5 damage per swing behind against 50% Fort (~9 against Pit Fiends that are effectively immune to Icy Burst), but at least the weapon would have some use, and would actually be the best weapon against some constructs. Impact allows slash-specced toons to pick it up and wield it effectively from time to time.
Superior Regeneration is just a fun effect. In intense combats, it's like having 5-15 more HP.

[oradafu]

Oh and my thoughts on the Greatclub of the Scrag:

Base Damage: 6d10
+6
Crit profile: Remains awful
Impact
Anarchic Burst
Icy Burst
Superior Regeneration (5hp per 6 seconds through positive energy)
Red Augment Slot

Those are pretty close to my thoughts on the Epic Greatclub of the Scrag. I think that either adjusting the Crit to x3 or add Impact should be added. I kind of agree that Impact might be the better of the two, especially if the base damage is increased. I'm not sure I'd go 6d10 though. I was thinking more like 4d10 with Improved Destruction, since being hit with something that big would make dodging difficult. Heck, maybe even a Greater Destruction that stacks with both Improved Destruction and regular Destruction.

[oradafu]

I have the Epic Frozen Plate. It's BtA, remember this. It's good for kiting Shadows and saving Large mats (slot with -15% ASF, use -5% ASF DEX item, have multiple persistent AoE's ready). I would maybe give it Coldshield Guard (like on glacier bracers), and give it Eternal Frost (like on the Epic Red Dragonscale armor). Most mobs have enough resistance to Cold damage to mostly render it useless, so it isn't extremely powerful. Maybe add Freezing Ice (weapons) as well. It's also a Full Plate, so numerous classes are excluded (Rogues, Rangers, Monks absolutely).

Epic Frozen Plate

+6 Enhancement Bonus
Freezing Ice Guard
Crushing Wave Guard/Glaciation Guard
Superior Cold Resistance
Cold Absorbtion 33%
Empty Blue Slot

Still very situational with my suggested changes, but making this the best non-Greensteel cold absorbtion item might get it some use. It wouldn't help ToD kiters, but could help melee stay up that much longer in ToD part 2 and could be useful in future content. Perhaps also add a DPS guard like Crushing Wave Guard or a cold version of Magma Surge or Incineration Guard (Glaciation Guard?), that deals massive cold and/or bludgeoning damage.

My original thoughts about the Epic Frozen Plate was to add a Crushing Wave Guard. I also like the idea of adding the Fire Shield (Cold) from the Bracers of the Glacier to this armor. I'm not sure if adding Eternal Frost would be too much, but I like the idea.

As others have pointed out, the armor is very situational. However, the armor might get more use with future updates, such as against one of the new Beholders in Update 10.

[Astraghal]

My original thoughts about the Epic Frozen Plate was to add a Crushing Wave Guard. I also like the idea of adding the Fire Shield (Cold) from the Bracers of the Glacier to this armor. I'm not sure if adding Eternal Frost would be too much, but I like the idea.

As others have pointed out, the armor is very situational. However, the armor might get more use with future updates, such as against one of the new Beholders in Update 10.

Actually I forgot to add DR 5/x which is pretty standard on Epic heavy armor. Maybe take off the DPS guard and add that, which would be more in line with the other Epic armors. Everyone loves DR.

[Carpone]

I can get behind the bodyfeeder affect being upgraded, but I think you're really undervaluing the bodyfeeder effect on a 17-20 crit

You're right, I was undervaluing the expanded crit range. I updated the OP to remove the improved bodyfeeder suggestion.

There's one needed change I overlooked in my initial analysis: The hardness of this item needs to be improved. With the Adamantine I ritual, it has a durability of 180 and a hardness of 24. Go solo 3 epic trash mobs, and the durability drops 10 points. Thats way too much, too fast.

[Astraghal]

The Epic Souleater and Epic Gloves/Bracers of the Claw are already great and IMO need no changes.

[Carpone]

Epic bloodplate fight it is actually very nice to have. As mentioned epic wiz king also.

And for non epics any pit fiend.

I wasn't asking for non-epic content because I think it's bassackwards to itemize epic gear to deal with non-epic content.

Ya know, I wasn't even aware that Bloodplate has a disease attack. With Heal, I guess I never noticed it making a difference.

Compare this to carnival. Snitch is really hard to solo as you have both crateos who can be beat but sometimes requires me to pot once, and Garos, who is very hard to do without excessive use of pots because of FTS breaking dot chains and spammed meteor swarms. Small problem end fight is extremely tough not just solo but with groups. The three party crashers end bosses are each harder than anything in fens except the demon and the priestess due to some really nasty spells and stuns being thrown about.

Difficulty is subjective. There are people in my guild who routinely solo Snitch, Small Problem and Partycrashers. They don't think it's more or less difficult than Red Fens or VON1-4.

[Carpone]

Looking back over the thread, we got stuck on a couple of things: Gloves of the Claw, Disease Immunity and Poison Immunity. To facilitate review of the other Red Fens items that really need it, I've conceded that Gloves of the Claw do not need to be changed, nor do Proof Against Poison and Disease Immunity need to be replaced (OP updated). Thank you to everyone that contributed constructively and provided context to those discussions.

Now that those discussion points are no longer relevant, please let's focus on making the weaker items in this set better. Thanks.

[Dexol]

Epic Sacred band looses lesser turning so you drop 2 turns by making it epic, and it was one of only 3 items to have the function so i think it should be kept, if not augmented. It is epic afterall so upgrade it to Greater Turning giving +4 turns.

[RTN]

For the Mired set bonus, FoM, like on the Kundarak boots, seems a very logical addition.

While I'd love a slot or two on the Claw set, at the very least, the gloves need to be +7 STR. Epic items should have epic stats.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

For the Mired set bonus, FoM, like on the Kundarak boots, seems a very logical addition.

While I'd love a slot or two on the Claw set, at the very least, the gloves need to be +7 STR. Epic items should have epic stats.

I also think that having +7 str on the gloves of the claw will be nice, but that will probably be a tad too much.
How about removing the (mostly redundant) +6 str altogether and putting in an augment slot instead (colorless will probably be fine, it will basically allow you to choose what stat you want in there instead of having the +6 str foisted on you)?

[weewoo0]

I also think that having +7 str on the gloves of the claw will be nice, but that will probably be a tad too much.
How about removing the (mostly redundant) +6 str altogether and putting in an augment slot instead (colorless will probably be fine, it will basically allow you to choose what stat you want in there instead of having the +6 str foisted on you)?

+7 str would make the epic helm of the red dragon basically irrelevant for most melees. (not complaining just pointing that out) hmm... that would free up my helm slot for something more useful however...

[sirgog]

While I'd love a slot or two on the Claw set, at the very least, the gloves need to be +7 STR. Epic items should have epic stats.

I wish they'd just remove the +6 Str altogether from the item. It would then have its epic stat clearly visible (+30% Healing Amp), and could get back to being the best set of gloves in the game for most melees without any of this silliness about making it even better.

[AMDarkwolf]

Don't see how removing str 6 from the gloves 'improves' it at all.

If you don't mind, leave it alone, its fine. The other sets (At least the pieces that the gem replaces) should get a slot, but the gloves are fine. FINE. AKA Do not go and remove str, SOME of us make use of that +6 str.

[xandariant]

For the Mired set bonus, FoM, like on the Kundarak boots, seems a very logical addition.

/signed

I think that moving striding 30%(or 40% as some say that epic boots should have) to Boots of Mire would be great and place FoM in set bonus for that Striding.

[Cyr]

I am just going to pick on one of the worst items in this set.

The raven set gloves.

Dex +6 and Bluff +15 with the set bonus.

First thing to note is there is nothing epic about this item...at all. The set bonus is the only factor in this items favor, but it requires two items...one of which you are better off getting through the chrono trinket.

So let's completely rebuild this item as it is horrible right now. There is already one incredible set of gloves in this set for pure dps purposes so lets go another route.

Dex +7
Reduced threat 30%
Bluff +20
Grants all your attacks deception.
Counts as part of the raven set.

This would make the item very valuable from a threat reduction perspective, which is only fair since you are giving up a noticable amount of dps by using it.

[RTN]

I am just going to pick on one of the worst items in this set.

The raven set gloves.

Dex +6 and Bluff +15 with the set bonus.

First thing to note is there is nothing epic about this item...at all. The set bonus is the only factor in this items favor, but it requires two items...one of which you are better off getting through the chrono trinket.

So let's completely rebuild this item as it is horrible right now. There is already one incredible set of gloves in this set for pure dps purposes so lets go another route.

Dex +7
Reduced threat 30%
Bluff +20
Grants all your attacks deception.
Counts as part of the raven set.

This would make the item very valuable from a threat reduction perspective, which is only fair since you are giving up a noticable amount of dps by using it.

Deception on all attacks seems overpowered.

[Cyr]

Deception on all attacks seems overpowered.

Not to me. There are lots of ways for rogues to get sneak attacks.

[oradafu]

I am just going to pick on one of the worst items in this set.

The raven set gloves.

Dex +6 and Bluff +15 with the set bonus.

First thing to note is there is nothing epic about this item...at all. The set bonus is the only factor in this items favor, but it requires two items...one of which you are better off getting through the chrono trinket.

So let's completely rebuild this item as it is horrible right now. There is already one incredible set of gloves in this set for pure dps purposes so lets go another route.

Dex +7
Reduced threat 30%
Bluff +20
Grants all your attacks deception.
Counts as part of the raven set.

This would make the item very valuable from a threat reduction perspective, which is only fair since you are giving up a noticable amount of dps by using it.

The problem with Deception is with boss fights, especially bosses that need to be tanked. Deception can cause the bosses aggro to bug out. Also, if I remember correctly (since I haven't used any Deception weapons for a while now), Deception can also cause dancing/sliding held mobs along with the Frozen Guardians from Into the Deep.

Unless this problem has been fixed, the only thing adding deception will do is make it even harder for rogues to join groups.

[sirgog]

Those are pretty close to my thoughts on the Epic Greatclub of the Scrag. I think that either adjusting the Crit to x3 or add Impact should be added. I kind of agree that Impact might be the better of the two, especially if the base damage is increased. I'm not sure I'd go 6d10 though. I was thinking more like 4d10 with Improved Destruction, since being hit with something that big would make dodging difficult. Heck, maybe even a Greater Destruction that stacks with both Improved Destruction and regular Destruction.

I'm not a fan of new stacking debuffs.

Adding things like a 'Greater Destruction' makes it harder and harder for the Devs to design challenging encounters - do they make mobs have an AC in the mid 80s (so you can only reliably hit them after knocking down their AC with Waves of Exhaustion, Destruction, Imp Destruction, Sundering Ooze, Strength Sapping and an Acid Fog, all of which stack for a total -23 AC; on rednameds, add in the hard-to-land Life-Devouring and 10 points of Dex damage for a total -31)?

Or do they keep making more bosses with ACs in the mid to high 60s, where you just need to land any two of those debuffs and several classes can hit them on a 2?

If they go with the first approach, as a raid leader you need to make sure every single one of those debuffs is available to your group.


I considered 4d12 with Imp Destruction, but felt that's been on a fair number of weapons lately.