Balance the cost of halfling cunning and guile.

[Cyr]

Interesting thread. I have to admit I like the idea of breaking apart some of the expensive enhancements into more (cheap) tiers, like we did with the caster damage amplification ones.

Half-Elf Rogue Dilettante does have a few minor downsides - it locks out all of the other ones, requires a small investment in dexterity, and doesn't stack with Rogue Sneak Attack.

I too think that halfling guile/cunning could use a small reduction in cost and a lengthening of the skill tree for them. Right now it is fairly sub-optimal to roll up a halfling due to h-elf and horc largely filling both sides of the build puzzle more effectively. Sure halflings are still the best for AC, but I would hardly call that a huge benefit in the current game.

[oradafu]

I thought that full line for the Cunning/Guile was a bit steep. As others have said, there's been a drop in AP cost for alot of other things recently, such as skills and caster's Arcane Elemental Manipulation just as the two most obvious examples.

There's a couple of different ways to reduce the Cunning/Guile AP cost.
a) Cunning 1/2/3/4 Guile 1/1/2/3 - 17 AP total
b) Cunning 1/1/2/3 Guile 1/2/3/4 - 17 AP total
c) Cunning 1/1/2/3 Guile 1/1/2/3 - 14 AP total
d) Cunning 1/1/2/3 Guile 1/1/2/4 - 15 AP total
e) Cunning 1/1/2/4 Guile 1/1/2/3 - 15 AP total
f) Cunning 1/1/2/4 Guile 1/1/2/4 - 16 AP total
g) Cunning 1/1/2/3 Guile 1/1/1/3 - 12 AP total
h) Cunning 1/1/2/3 Guile 1/1/1/4 - 13 AP total
...etc

Below 12 AP might seem a bit OP to some, but I can get behind a 10 AP cost since Sneak Attack doesn't work on the undead, elementals, constructs and any future 100% fort bosses.

[Requiro]

Interesting thread. I have to admit I like the idea of breaking apart some of the expensive enhancements into more (cheap) tiers, like we did with the caster damage amplification ones.

Half-Elf Rogue Dilettante does have a few minor downsides - it locks out all of the other ones, requires a small investment in dexterity, and doesn't stack with Rogue Sneak Attack.

It’s always nice to see someone from the High Council (Devs) on Suggestion forum Glad that I can inspire you

Here is some more : http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=322500 (with much less balance)

But...

What I don't understand is your argument:

"(...)it locks out all of the other ones(...)"

Every choice of the race locks out all the other. This is part of game. I can’t understand why this can be some kind of downside of Half-Elf only...

[Coldin]

Interesting thread. I have to admit I like the idea of breaking apart some of the expensive enhancements into more (cheap) tiers, like we did with the caster damage amplification ones.

Half-Elf Rogue Dilettante does have a few minor downsides - it locks out all of the other ones, requires a small investment in dexterity, and doesn't stack with Rogue Sneak Attack.

I'd like to see a balance pass made to all enhancements and their cost/benefit ratio. Right now we sort of have two conflicting styles. The older style where enhancements increment steadily but cost more and more AP, and the newer style where bonuses are smaller, but it's much cheaper to advance each rank.

[phalaeo]

We already get a sucky "Favored weapon type"-- I really agree with the suggestions in this thread and I'd like to see the cost reduced. As it stands now, neither of my Halfers can afford the full line and definitely not if they want to take tiers in that other awesome Halfling thing...

(speaking of which!)

Can we also revisit the AP requirements for Halfling Heroes' Companion? I love, love, love this buff- as it stands, it's a static 5/rest and isn't affected by any gear that will give you one/two/three more uses per rest. I'd actually rather take it to five tiers:

HHC1- 1 AP
HHC2- 1 AP
HHC3- 2 AP
HHC4- 2 AP
HHC5- 2 AP (Reduce the AP required for buff progression, but shorten the duration to 45 seconds instead of a minute. The new Tier 5 will balance that and enable buff duration of 1:05. That way you can fit in the top tier of the enhancement benefits, but need to "pay" a little extra for a longer duration)


Maybe?

[redspecter23]

I think all of the old 1/2/3/4 enhancement lines really need to be looked into. Up to tier 3 the cost isn't really horrible, but taking tier 4 is almost a sick trick to get us to waste action points in most situations. A cost re-evaluation is in order across the board.

[oradafu]

We already get a sucky "Favored weapon type"-- I really agree with the suggestions in this thread and I'd like to see the cost reduced. As it stands now, neither of my Halfers can afford the full line and definitely not if they want to take tiers in that other awesome Halfling thing...

(speaking of which!)

Can we also revisit the AP requirements for Halfling Heroes' Companion? I love, love, love this buff- as it stands, it's a static 5/rest and isn't affected by any gear that will give you one/two/three more uses per rest. I'd actually rather take it to five tiers:

HHC1- 1 AP
HHC2- 1 AP
HHC3- 2 AP
HHC4- 2 AP
HHC5- 2 AP (Reduce the AP required for buff progression, but shorten the duration to 45 seconds instead of a minute. The new Tier 5 will balance that and enable buff duration of 1:05. That way you can fit in the top tier of the enhancement benefits, but need to "pay" a little extra for a longer duration)


Maybe?

I agree that Halfling Heroes' Companion and Halfling Thrown Weapon Attack/Damage should be reduced also. Phalaeo covered some ground on the Heroes' Companion so I'll talk about the other AP line.

Currently the Halfling Thrown Weapon Attack line costs 2/4, so for a total of 6 AP you only get a +2 attack bonus with thrown weapons. Additionally, the Halfling Thrown Weapon Damage line costs 2/4/6. so for a total of 12 AP you only get 3 extra points of damage with thrown weapons. I've found the AP cost just insanely too high for so little bonus for weapons mostly used for levers and perched archers.

[sirgog]

I think all of the old 1/2/3/4 enhancement lines really need to be looked into. Up to tier 3 the cost isn't really horrible, but taking tier 4 is almost a sick trick to get us to waste action points in most situations. A cost re-evaluation is in order across the board.

I'm personally a fan of diminishing returns on some enhancements.

I don't like them much on straight up DPS increases that are a major part of a class's identity (or a race's identity). But for other effects such as WF Healer's Friend*, Racial/Class Toughness and the like, I'm much more of a fan of having them get less efficient the deeper you go into them.

It creates more diversity in builds. Taking WF as an example, some people prioritize HP more than others - they take Racial/Class Toughness 3 or even 4. Others prefer healing amp, and sacrifice a Toughness 4 to take tier 2 of Healer's Friend for the extra ~7.6% to overall incoming divine healing. Still other players might skip both and take a skill boost instead.

If every Toughness enhancement was equally efficient, almost everyone would either take none of them, or would take them all. With the current diminishing returns system, there's plenty of reasons to consider things in between.



* Not trying to claim that WF Healer's Friend is set up perfectly at the moment; returns diminish too much on this one as the first 2 AP give more than the next 10 AP. IMO this should be 2/2/2 or 2/1/2 or 2/2/3 rather than 2/4/6.

[jkm]

While we are at it, can we add a halfling carrying capacity line?

[Aelonwy]

While we are at it, can we add a halfling carrying capacity line?

OMG yes something like:

Tier 1 : (1 AP) + 5% Carrying Capacity
Tier 2 : (2 AP) + 5% Carrying Capacity
Tier 3 : (3 AP) + 5% Carrying Capacity

6AP for 15% total carrying capacity

Or if that's overcoming too much of the halfling strength/carrying penalty...

Tier 1 : (1 AP) + 1% Carrying Capacity
Tier 2 : (1 AP) + 2% Carrying Capacity
Tier 3 : (2 AP) + 3% Carrying Capacity
Tier 4 : (2 AP) + 4% Carrying Capacity

6AP for 10% total carrying capacity

[mournbladereigns]

Only if you buff the racial weapon enhancements too (especially for Elves/Drow, they need moar love!)
But a slight reduction in cost, or additional benefits would be nice.

[redspecter23]

I'm personally a fan of diminishing returns on some enhancements.

I don't like them much on straight up DPS increases that are a major part of a class's identity (or a race's identity). But for other effects such as WF Healer's Friend*, Racial/Class Toughness and the like, I'm much more of a fan of having them get less efficient the deeper you go into them.

It creates more diversity in builds. Taking WF as an example, some people prioritize HP more than others - they take Racial/Class Toughness 3 or even 4. Others prefer healing amp, and sacrifice a Toughness 4 to take tier 2 of Healer's Friend for the extra ~7.6% to overall incoming divine healing. Still other players might skip both and take a skill boost instead.

If every Toughness enhancement was equally efficient, almost everyone would either take none of them, or would take them all. With the current diminishing returns system, there's plenty of reasons to consider things in between.



* Not trying to claim that WF Healer's Friend is set up perfectly at the moment; returns diminish too much on this one as the first 2 AP give more than the next 10 AP. IMO this should be 2/2/2 or 2/1/2 or 2/2/3 rather than 2/4/6.

Diminishing returns as an overall theme is just fine, but certain abilities really do need a pass. The halfling line in particular is disguised as two lines of 1/2/3/4 but in actuality is more like 1 line of 2/4/6/8 if you're looking for just the damage. In some situations like the one you noted concerning healing amp, the 2/4/6 is maybe off by a bit, but some people do take it to the 3rd tier so it gets some love. If that particular line had a 4th tier costing 8 AP, I'm not sure how many people would go that far. I guess what I'm saying is that the difference in diminishing returns between a line that has 3 tiers and one that has 4 tiers seems way off to me. Halfling Cunning/Guile could be 3 tiers at 1/2/3 for +2/+3/+4 attack and +4/+6/+8 damage and it would seem much more attractive

[Riggs]

Reduced cost lines indeed would be good.

New racial weapon - Hoopak! roar.

[Chette]

I really like the ideas in this thread and am glad to see a dev checking it out.

The Half-Elf rogue Dily was a slap in the face to halflings everywhere. I used to have quite a few halfling builds, and almost all of them have, or will be TRing to something else.

Reduce the cost of cunning and guile, and allow a deeper investment, particularly into guile. Right now there's no reason at all to play a halfling, unless you are a rogue, and even then a max STR half orc khopesh user is probably a stronger build.

[QuantumFX]

Interesting thread. I have to admit I like the idea of breaking apart some of the expensive enhancements into more (cheap) tiers, like we did with the caster damage amplification ones.

Any chance you guys might take a look at the specific (Dwarf, Elf, Drow) Racial Weapon enhancements as alternate enhancements for things like kensai? (Ex. replace the Crit Accuracy enhancements.) It’s pretty obvious that you guys took the ideas for those enhancements from the Racial Weapon Affinity feats from Races of Ebberon. It’s pathetic that all kensai, regardless of race, are shoehorned into the path of the almighty khopesh simply because the AP cost is so **** high.