Balance the cost of halfling cunning and guile.

[Daim]

Currently it takes a halfling 20 enhancement points to receive a +4 to hit and +8 to damage on a opponent under combat advantage.

Compared to a half elf who can get more sneak attack damage with the rogue dilettante for only 6 action points. Of course this doesn't stack with rogue levels or give a bonus to hit but the cost makes much more sense.

I would suggest changing the halfling bonus in one of three ways to make it more appealing.
1. Half the cost to 10 action points from 20. If this is too powerful a change see option 2.
2. Make it cost double the half elf cost because of the bonus to hit, so 12 action points.
3. Change it so the cunning enhancements are no longer a requisite to take the guile line.

I welcome other ideas as well so please leave your feedback.

[Requiro]

Your 2nd and 3rd proposal is nice. But:

(...)
I welcome other ideas as well so please leave your feedback.

So my vision is something like this:

• Halfling Cunning
• Higher levels require always lower one. First have no requirement at all.
  
  • 1st (1 AP): +1 to hit while flanking an enemy (available on 1 level)
  • 2nd (1 AP): +1 to hit while flanking an enemy (available on 3 level)
  • 3rd (2 AP): +1 to hit while flanking an enemy and +1 to Hide skill while in sneak mode (available on 7 level)
  • 4th (3 AP): +1 to hit while flanking an enemy and +1 to Hide and Move Silently skill while in sneak mode (available on 11 level)
  • 5th (3 AP): +1 to hit and +1 to confirm critical hits while flanking an enemy and +1 Hide and Move Silently skill while in sneak mode (available on 15 level)

• Halfling Guile – all levels cost only 1 AP
• Higher levels require always lower one. There are some additional requirements.
  
  • 1st (available on 1 level): +1 sneak attack damage (Req: 1st Halfling Cunning)
  • 2nd (available on 2 level): +1 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill.
  • 3rd (available on 4 level): +1 sneak attack damage (Req: 2ndHalfling Cunning)
  • 4th (available on 6 level): +1 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill.
  • 5th (available on 8 level): +1 sneak attack damage (Req: 3rd Halfling Cunning)
  • 6th (available on 10 level): +1 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill.
  • 7th (available on 12 level): +1 sneak attack damage (Req: 4th Halfling Cunning)
  • 8th (available on 14 level): +1 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill.
  • 9th (available on 16 level): +1 sneak attack damage (Req: 5th Halfling Cunning)
  • 10th (available on 18 level): +1 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill.

What my proposal change?

• With the cost of 15 AP you can get the same bonus like today (+4 to hit, +8 dmg, +4 bluff) and:
  
  • Faster – on level 14 instead 15 (also faster when leveling)
  • With additional bonus while sneaking: +2 Hide and +1 Move Silently.

• With the cost of 20 AP you can get full chain:
  
  • +5 to-hit on level 15 while flanking an enemy
  • +10 sneak attack damage on level 18
  • +5 to bluff skill on level 18
  • +3 to Hide and +2 Move Silently while in sneak mode
  • +1 to confirm critical hits while flanking an enemy

[Daim]

Your 2nd and 3rd proposal is nice. But:



So my vision is something like this:

• Halfling Cunning
• Higher levels require always lower one. First have no requirement at all.
  
  • 1st (1 AP): +1 to hit while flanking an enemy (available on 1 level)
  • 2nd (1 AP): +1 to hit while flanking an enemy (available on 3 level)
  • 3rd (2 AP): +1 to hit while flanking an enemy and +1 to Hide skill while in sneak mode (available on 7 level)
  • 4th (3 AP): +1 to hit while flanking an enemy and +1 to Hide and Move Silently skill while in sneak mode (available on 11 level)
  • 5th (3 AP): +1 to hit and +1 to confirm critical hits while flanking an enemy and +1 Hide and Move Silently skill while in sneak mode (available on 15 level)

• Halfling Guile – all levels cost only 1 AP
• Higher levels require always lower one. There are some additional requirements.
  
  • 1st (available on 1 level): +1 sneak attack damage (Req: 1st Halfling Cunning)
  • 2nd (available on 2 level): +1 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill.
  • 3rd (available on 4 level): +1 sneak attack damage (Req: 2ndHalfling Cunning)
  • 4th (available on 6 level): +1 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill.
  • 5th (available on 8 level): +1 sneak attack damage (Req: 3rd Halfling Cunning)
  • 6th (available on 10 level): +1 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill.
  • 7th (available on 12 level): +1 sneak attack damage (Req: 4th Halfling Cunning)
  • 8th (available on 14 level): +1 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill.
  • 9th (available on 16 level): +1 sneak attack damage (Req: 5th Halfling Cunning)
  • 10th (available on 18 level): +1 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill.

What my proposal change?

• With the cost of 15 AP you can get the same bonus like today (+4 to hit, +8 dmg, +4 bluff) and:
  
  • Faster – on level 14 instead 15 (also faster when leveling)
  • With additional bonus while sneaking: +2 Hide and +1 Move Silently.

• With the cost of 20 AP you can get full chain:
  
  • +5 to-hit on level 15 while flanking an enemy
  • +10 sneak attack damage on level 18
  • +5 to bluff skill on level 18
  • +3 to Hide and +2 Move Silently while in sneak mode
  • +1 to confirm critical hits while flanking an enemy

I like the idea behind this but I don't think they will make 10 levels of guile. What could you do to the current setup of 4 levels behind each?

[Requiro]

I like the idea behind this but I don't think they will make 10 levels of guile. What could you do to the current setup of 4 levels behind each?

Nothing. Just like with other change, if you don’t reset enhancements you will play with old one. When you get reset, you can't take old one any longer.

Just like with Arcane Elemental Manipulation ect. In Update 9.

[altrocks]

Nothing. Just like with other change, if you don’t reset enhancements you will play with old one. When you get reset, you can't take old one any longer.

Just like with Arcane Elemental Manipulation ect. In Update 9.

Those enhancements were removed and no longer worked because they didn't want a repeat of the crit-rage barbarian enhancements lasting well past their deletion. All my casters lost their fire/ice line enhancements and had effectively no boost to damage until I reset and spent them again. I don't think they'll be allowing people to keep deleted enhancements anymore, especially when they're game-breaking ones like combined elemental ones were. If they had left those in post-U9 no capped sorcs would have bothered taking savant lines since their fire and ice would have been maxed already and they'd still get the new spells' damage/duration/etc. I would have preferred if they had let me do that as I wouldn't have bothered TR'ing my sorc then.

[Razcar]

/Signed, either suggestion 1 or 3

Nothing. Just like with other change, if you don’t reset enhancements you will play with old one. When you get reset, you can't take old one any longer.

Just like with Arcane Elemental Manipulation ect. In Update 9.

Seems to me you misunderstood him. I think he was asking how your suggestion would look if you used 4 tiers instead of 10. And not what will happen to the old enhancements if we get new ones.

[Requiro]

/Signed, either suggestion 1 or 3

Seems to me you misunderstood him. I think he was asking how your suggestion would look if you used 4 tiers instead of 10. And not what will happen to the old enhancements if we get new ones.

Well... I that so I will do someting like this:

• Halfling Cunning
• Higher levels require always lower one. First have no requirement at all.
  
  • 1st (1AP): +1 to hit while flanking an enemy (available on 2 level)
  • 2nd (1AP): +1 to hit while flanking an enemy (available on 5 level)
  • 3rd (2AP): +1 to hit while flanking an enemy and +1 to Move Silently skill while in sneak mode (available on 10 level)
  • 4th (3AP): +1 to hit while flanking an enemy and +1 to Move Silently and Hide skill while in sneak mode (available on 14 level)

• Halfling Guile
• Higher levels require always lower one. There are some additional requirements.
  
  • 1st (1 AP, available on 3 level): +1 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill (Req: 1st Halfling Cunning)
  • 2nd (1 AP available on 6 level): +2 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill (Req: 2nd Halfling Cunning)
  • 3rd (2 AP available on 11 level): +3 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill (Req: 3rd Halfling Cunning)
  • 4th (3 AP available on 15 level): +3 sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff skill (Req: 4th Halfling Cunning)

[Daim]

/Signed, either suggestion 1 or 3

Seems to me you misunderstood him. I think he was asking how your suggestion would look if you used 4 tiers instead of 10. And not what will happen to the old enhancements if we get new ones.

This is exactly what I meant, thanks for clearing it up!

[lethargos]

Reducing the ap cost should be done. Guile/cunning is a defining halfling trait as is half-elf diletante. Still rogue diletante surpasses halfling guile/cunning in terms of ap efficiency by a mile

[Bodic]

yes 1234 is expensive race AP balance cost is important.

I would be happy keeping current tiers it is a fair boost.

I would not like guile free of cunning req or 1111
now 1234 1122 would be ok IMHO.

[Lithic]

+8 to damage for 10 AP is already pretty **** cheap (please don't pretend people bother with +4 to hit while sneak attacking, even rogues don't bother with that unless they need them for Assassin).

To reduce the cost would make it even more overpowered.

[Bodic]

+8 to damage for 10

Its 20 AP to get +8SA cunning 10 guile 10

in order to get guile IV(+8SA damage) you must have cunning IV(+4 SA 2hit)

[Lithic]

Its 20 AP to get +8SA cunning 10 guile 10

in order to get guile IV(+8SA damage) you must have cunning IV(+4 SA 2hit)

Still cheap for such a huge increase.

[aristarchus1000]

+8 to damage for 10 AP is already pretty **** cheap (please don't pretend people bother with +4 to hit while sneak attacking, even rogues don't bother with that unless they need them for Assassin).

To reduce the cost would make it even more overpowered.

That is the reason he made suggestion #3. You have to have the to-hit line to get the damage line.

Doubt it would overpowered, even if that is the case, given that Half-elves get 10.5 for 6 APs.

[Eladrin]

Interesting thread. I have to admit I like the idea of breaking apart some of the expensive enhancements into more (cheap) tiers, like we did with the caster damage amplification ones.

Half-Elf Rogue Dilettante does have a few minor downsides - it locks out all of the other ones, requires a small investment in dexterity, and doesn't stack with Rogue Sneak Attack.

[shortdevils]

Interesting thread. I have to admit I like the idea of breaking apart some of the expensive enhancements into more (cheap) tiers, like we did with the caster damage amplification ones.

Half-Elf Rogue Dilettante does have a few minor downsides - it locks out all of the other ones, requires a small investment in dexterity, and doesn't stack with Rogue Sneak Attack.

Nearly anyone that wants any amount of sneak attack would meet the dex requirement ( twf / finese)

Ofcourse halfling should cost more since it gives bonuses to hit and stacks with rogue sneak attack but for people playing monk, half elf is far
more AP'fficient.

[Missing_Minds]

Half-Elf Rogue Dilettante does have a few minor downsides - it locks out all of the other ones, requires a small investment in dexterity, and doesn't stack with Rogue Sneak Attack.

It also doesn't allow you to take Hamstring, which it should.

for that matter so should Ninja Spy, but with H elf, you've got feat and feat for a feat tree protection vs enhancement with feat issue.

[Daim]

Half-Elf Rogue Dilettante does have a few minor downsides - it locks out all of the other ones, requires a small investment in dexterity, and doesn't stack with Rogue Sneak Attack.

Which is why I think keeping the costs higher makes sense, but 20 points is a significant cost. The nearest I can find in racial costs is 16 for all of dwarven toughness which gives 2 Con and 40 additional hit points. Even mitigating the cost slightly would be very welcome.

[Bodic]

Interesting thread. I have to admit I like the idea of breaking apart some of the expensive enhancements into more (cheap) tiers, like we did with the caster damage amplification ones.

Half-Elf Rogue Dilettante does have a few minor downsides - it locks out all of the other ones, requires a small investment in dexterity, and doesn't stack with Rogue Sneak Attack.

where I stand really is my Halfling Dark monk would like some guile but gets dreadfully AP starved. My rogue is ok with it, but 25% is still alot.

[Cyr]

Interesting thread. I have to admit I like the idea of breaking apart some of the expensive enhancements into more (cheap) tiers, like we did with the caster damage amplification ones.

Half-Elf Rogue Dilettante does have a few minor downsides - it locks out all of the other ones, requires a small investment in dexterity, and doesn't stack with Rogue Sneak Attack.

I too think that halfling guile/cunning could use a small reduction in cost and a lengthening of the skill tree for them. Right now it is fairly sub-optimal to roll up a halfling due to h-elf and horc largely filling both sides of the build puzzle more effectively. Sure halflings are still the best for AC, but I would hardly call that a huge benefit in the current game.