Deat Sarlona

[dragon2fire]

As some one who has gotten 50 levels of favored soul i feel i must comment on a trend i am seeing in pugs. Looking for cleric.....Let me tell ya fvs are fantastic healers. Even melee ones can heal quite well....so continue to post as you wish but do understand that if i am on my fvs healer and you are posted just looking for cleric i will not be joining your group and you will just have to wait some more.

[AMDarkwolf]

well i'd just say that when someone says 'looking for cleric' they are really saying 'looking for healer'


Since really, by the original logic your holding to was true, a pure 6 wis/6cha battle cleric with less hp than a lv 1 rog would 'do the job'

[wootvenu]

I agree with darkwolf. Looking for cleric usually means looking for healer!

[Dracey]

any worthwhile pug leader will expect the fvs icon to be as heal capable as a cleric, even if you're battle. groups that don't understand this are missing out

well i'd just say that when someone says 'looking for cleric' they are really saying 'looking for healer'


Since really, by the original logic your holding to was true, a pure 6 wis/6cha battle cleric with less hp than a lv 1 rog would 'do the job'

hey hey, leave my 6wis/6cha out of this!

[TrinityTurtle]

As some one who has gotten 50 levels of favored soul i feel i must comment on a trend i am seeing in pugs. Looking for cleric.....Let me tell ya fvs are fantastic healers. Even melee ones can heal quite well....so continue to post as you wish but do understand that if i am on my fvs healer and you are posted just looking for cleric i will not be joining your group and you will just have to wait some more.

I agree. My favored souls cast healing spells just like my clerics. There are some downsides, I don't have quite the range of buffs on the fs that I do on the cleric, but that can be worked around. I like keeping my parties alive and take pride in it.

However, I think one part of the problem here isn't people not knowing favored souls can heal. It's an experience issue. We all make our decisions based on our own experiences, and I personally have run into way too many fs who do not run the class well. The icing on that cake is the ones that won't even heal themselves, insisting their sp is purely for offensive/self-buffing and someone else should take care of them and the party. Several times I"ve seen groups asking for a healer (and the need for a healer vs. self sufficiency is a different arguement entirely, lets say group A is just not that experience and needs a healer), advertises this clearly, and a favored soul takes the spot and then refuses to heal after entering in the quest. This happens sadly too often also. These experiences negatively impact the class to the people who play with them.

DDO is a crapshoot of who you will meet and party with. If as a newer player my experience was made up of the badly played favored souls, my future choices would logically swing to the clerics and away from them.

I personally know better, but I've met plenty of players who have not played with decently run fs who keep both their melee and help the party going at the same time and mistrust them, and personally played with many bad favored souls that I won't play with again, so I got both sides of that coin to base my decisions on. Some pug leaders are ignorant sure, but some are smart people reacting to the experiences they've had and making the best decisions for their group based on past experience.

[jwdaniels]

As someone who has played both clerics and favored souls, I will tell you that I think clerics make better healers for three reasons:

1. Radiant Servant - It saddens me how many people don't understand the benefits of this prestige. Put your wands and scrolls away between fights and just stand next to the barbarian for a while.

2. Wider spell selection - Clerics can do something that Favored Souls can't, and that's carry a wide enough range of spells (or switch on a quest by quest basis) to have the right mix of crowd control and buffs to mitigate incoming damage and reduce the need for healing in the first place. The most important part of healing is preventing the damage in the first place.

3. At low to mid levels, the Favored Soul is one level behind getting new spell levels. This means that at level 17, for example, the Favored Soul is working without mass heal while the cleric has it.

Favored Souls, depending on build, can be much better at melee than clerics or much better at tossing spells but even fully heal-specced a Favored Soul doesn't out-perform a healing cleric.

That said, there's nothing in the game that a good Favored Soul can't heal and anyone looking for a "healer" that ignores Favored Souls probably doesn't understand the game well enough to be leading pugs.

[k1ngp1n]

Favored Souls, depending on build, can be much better at melee than clerics or much better at tossing spells but even fully heal-specced a Favored Soul doesn't out-perform a healing cleric.

That's debatable.

[Zenako]

Another point, unless they changed the rules recently, you can build a FvS that does not have any healing spells, while a Cleric automatically has some in memory (to reflect the ability to channel into healing that D&D clerics had.) I know on my FvS I usually kept a slot for a healing spell, but generally only one spot at the most efficient level for the character level. Run into some of those FvS, who do not stack lots of supplies and your opinion of Favored Souls will likely be tainted for some time.

Often it seems like getting heals from a FvS is getting a favor from them, while clerics tend to just do it with out prompting. Mindset entirely, since nothing prevent a FvS from healing just about as well.

[TempestAlphaOmega]

I personally have run into way too many fs who do not run the class well. The icing on that cake is the ones that won't even heal themselves, insisting their sp is purely for offensive/self-buffing and someone else should take care of them and the party.

How many times have you read a post by someone talking about how their build does this or that and how DDO allows people to make builds that are not pigeonholed into a role based on class?

Should a FvS be able to heal the party? I believe so, melee or offensive caster doesn't really matter. Could someone build one that would not be able to? Yes, they could fail to take any of the healing spells. Does that make their build ineffective? No, it just means that it won't do what the majority of people are expecting it to do, which should result in said player making explanations before (preferrably) or right after joining so everybody is on the same page.

Now before I roll off on a tangent, what I was really going to comment on is that the LFM system should not be based on class, it should be based on roll,

Healer
DPS
Tank (I find so many people don't really understand this one)
Crowd Control

There should be a few more as well.

I have seen "leaders" not wanting to take additional individuals from a specific melee class into a Shroud raid because they didn't know if they were getting a pure DPS build or a poorly built Tank (the later seemed to be what they believed the majority of the class was) and they didn't know how to ask or tell the difference in other ways.

We could probably go on and on picking examples from each class and how people have build toons that fit the typical roll or fall outside it.

[Seamonkeysix]

That's debatable.

^^ This

My primary Epics healer is an FvS, LoB WF. What isn't taken into account is that with 2600ish SP, some healing enhancements + quicken, I can stand in the middle of any boss fight and contribute moderate DPS. This equals faster kills, which equals less time, which equals less mana required by any healer (cleric or FvS).

It really just depends on your style and experience playing the healer you have. Radiant Servant is great for conserving mana and topping off the party in between fights and mana free heals from burst, but don't discount that a well played FvS with AoV and melee/DPS capability is going to contribute in their own way and those things can balance out. Having wings and being able to kite and self-heal in some quests also = profit.

I think there are some situations where a RS cleric CAN be a better choice but there are some situations where an FvS is a better choice.

[jwdaniels]

That's debatable.

Yes, it is and I'm happy to have this debate all day long.

The Favored Soul has the advantage in a larger SP pool, which rarely comes into play - I'm not in the habit of running out of SP on my cleric, so I don't need more SP than I have. The radiant servant gets extra amplification bonuses, plus bursts and auras, which reduces the advantage of the FvS extra SP, plus added versatility - the cleric can carry all the buffs and resists, all the heals, and crowd control to stop mobs from dealing damage in the first place.

From my experience, Favored Souls are more self-sufficient than clerics but clerics are more beneficial to a group. This, of course, assumes the player to be good and know what they're doing in both cases. My original statement stands, though, that either class (in the hands of a decent player) is more than capable of healing anything.

[k1ngp1n]

Yes, it is and I'm happy to have this debate all day long.

The Favored Soul has the advantage in a larger SP pool, which rarely comes into play - I'm not in the habit of running out of SP on my cleric, so I don't need more SP than I have. The radiant servant gets extra amplification bonuses, plus bursts and auras, which reduces the advantage of the FvS extra SP, plus added versatility - the cleric can carry all the buffs and resists, all the heals, and crowd control to stop mobs from dealing damage in the first place.

From my experience, Favored Souls are more self-sufficient than clerics but clerics are more beneficial to a group. This, of course, assumes the player to be good and know what they're doing in both cases. My original statement stands, though, that either class (in the hands of a decent player) is more than capable of healing anything.

While your statements are true, in the most part they are not relevant.

1.) Clerics get amp bonuses: Yes, however they don't need them. Everything is already overhealed. I turn off my Empower Healing on my cleric a lot now because I simply don't need it.

2.) You will run out of SP in an elite ToD gone bad. There the FvS healing capstone and extra SP tip the balances by a long way. While clerics are better in 'normal' content, the FvS pulls ahead in longer and more difficult fights, which are the ones that matter anyway. Too many underestimate the power of the cure light capstone - its incredible in situations such as when a group is kiting horoth after the tank goes down. That alone can keep the kiter alive while everyone else recovers.

3.) An FvS can carry almost all of the important spells and stock consumables to cover up the rest. FvS spell selection is in no way a detractor to their performance.

To claim that 'clerics are better healers' is an over-simplification. They can and often are. But there are several key situations in which I'd prefer a healer FvS over a cleric in an idealized setup. I say that as a player who runs a cleric as my main - I love the versatility of the class. But there are points in which the cleric has drawbacks that the FvS doesn't. This is a good thing.

[dragon2fire]

While your statements are true, in the most part they are not relevant.

3.) An FvS can carry almost all of the important spells and stock consumables to cover up the rest. FvS spell selection is in no way a detractor to their performance.

To claim that 'clerics are better healers' is an over-simplification. They can and often are. But there are several key situations in which I'd prefer a healer FvS over a cleric in an idealized setup. I say that as a player who runs a cleric as my main - I love the versatility of the class. But there are points in which the cleric has drawbacks that the FvS doesn't. This is a good thing.

^+1

Hit the nail right on the head. So long as the fvs is stocked the spells they are "missing" are more then covered.

[jwdaniels]

1.) Clerics get amp bonuses: Yes, however they don't need them. Everything is already overhealed. I turn off my Empower Healing on my cleric a lot now because I simply don't need it.

Part of what makes radiant servant clerics so efficient is that with the right set-up of meta magics and gear, I can heal plenty of damage with a mass cure moderate wounds, which uses less SP and is faster and more efficient than a quickened mass heal. Also, I can do that starting at a much lower level - FvS getting mass heal at level 18, Radiant Servants getting mass cure moderate at level 11. Radiant Servant clerics are definitely better healers at low and mid levels.

Yes, there are instances where you need a quickened mass heal, and if a situation calls for spamming that over and over the larger spell pool will trump everything else. For the other situations in the game, I'd rather have a cleric than a FvS.

^+1

Hit the nail right on the head. So long as the fvs is stocked the spells they are "missing" are more then covered.

Sure, a FvS can carry clickies and have most of the spells needed, but in general a FvS can focus on either melee or spell DCs but not both and definitely doesn't have enough spell slots for healing, buffing and CC. The cleric's versatility and single-stat focus provide an edge here. The FvS, though, is a far better melee combatant than a cleric will ever be, giving it the DPS edge which is where I think the FvS really shines in comparison to the cleric.

I do have to say, though, that this debate is one of the more civilized and intelligent I have had on a message board. I wonder if that speaks to the type of people that tend to favor divine casters...

[k1ngp1n]

Part of what makes radiant servant clerics so efficient is that with the right set-up of meta magics and gear, I can heal plenty of damage with a mass cure moderate wounds, which uses less SP and is faster and more efficient than a quickened mass heal. Also, I can do that starting at a much lower level - FvS getting mass heal at level 18, Radiant Servants getting mass cure moderate at level 11. Radiant Servant clerics are definitely better healers at low and mid levels.

Yes, there are instances where you need a quickened mass heal, and if a situation calls for spamming that over and over the larger spell pool will trump everything else. For the other situations in the game, I'd rather have a cleric than a FvS.



Sure, a FvS can carry clickies and have most of the spells needed, but in general a FvS can focus on either melee or spell DCs but not both and definitely doesn't have enough spell slots for healing, buffing and CC. The cleric's versatility and single-stat focus provide an edge here. The FvS, though, is a far better melee combatant than a cleric will ever be, giving it the DPS edge which is where I think the FvS really shines in comparison to the cleric.

I do have to say, though, that this debate is one of the more civilized and intelligent I have had on a message board. I wonder if that speaks to the type of people that tend to favor divine casters...

You are correct, at lower levels a Cleric is superior to a Favored Soul in hjeals. I am more concerned (personally) about higher levels, where that advantage falls away. I think we're actually in a fine state right now with the balance of power between the two classes. A FvS built for heals at cap can do things that a cleric can't, and vice versa.

Don't discount cleric melee, either. For some reason a lot of people get the idea that FvS = better melee. A cleric that invests in Divine might (build a 'wise paladin') can actually do a hefty amount of DPS and compete with a FvS.

[TempestAlphaOmega]

I do have to say, though, that this debate is one of the more civilized and intelligent I have had on a message board. I wonder if that speaks to the type of people that tend to favor divine casters...

When things are going well, usually the last thing you want to do is point such out (did the background music just change?).

[dragon2fire]

your all a bunch of noobs :P

I think you right it is the type that plays divines.

[Cardtrick]

More than anything, it comes down to player ability, gear, and build.

That said, when leading/joining a group and trying to decide between a cleric and a favored soul who I don't know, who I would pick depends on the type of content being run:

1) "Standard" 6-man quests and easy epics:

Favored Soul or Clonk. In this type of content, any semi-competent player of either class can provide plenty of healing. As a general rule, Favored Soul and multi-classed Cleric PUGers seem much more likely to contribute to the party in other ways, whether that means melee, DC-based offensive casting, and/or Blade Barrier/Divine Punishment. Too many PUG clerics seem to believe that they exist only to heal and buff. (This is not due to a lack of capability, just a lack of inclination or understanding.)

2) "Difficult" 6-man quests (hard/elite SoS, Amrath, etc.), most raids (Shroud, VoD, etc.), most epics:

Cleric or Clonk. These quests have so much incoming damage that having a character who does pretty much nothing but heal (and hopefully DOT the bosses) is often quite nice. Radiant Servant bursts and auras help a lot, as does the bonus to empower healing. Just as importantly, most cleric players are somewhat experienced healers.

A Favored Soul certainly can heal this type of content, but too many PUGers aren't properly built/geared/practiced for it.

3) Elite/epic raids:

Favored Soul. Damage output is often too hard and heavy to rely on bursts, auras, or un-metad cure/heal spells. In this type of content, where quickened mass heals and maximized/empowered mass cures are the rule, a Favored Soul's significantly larger base SP pool makes a big difference. Again, clerics/clonks can heal this type of content, but they need to be geared and built for it, or at least willing to drink lots of potions if they're not. The other concern here is that Favored Souls tend to be considerably more resilient (higher HP, tons of DR) than pure clerics, who have a nasty tendency of dying in this type of content.

4) Content where I know the healer and their capabilities:

Whoever I know to be competent. That might be a cleric, a clonk, a favored soul, a bard . . . whoever. Player skill matters much more than build or class.

[Hellllboy]

As some one who has gotten 50 levels of favored soul i feel i must comment on a trend i am seeing in pugs. Looking for cleric.....Let me tell ya fvs are fantastic healers. Even melee ones can heal quite well....so continue to post as you wish but do understand that if i am on my fvs healer and you are posted just looking for cleric i will not be joining your group and you will just have to wait some more.

Any Party that looks specifically for a Cleric and not well rounded players that can contribute to a group is at a disadvantage.

Most FvS can contribute to healing-even if they focus on Spell DC or Melee.

[dragon2fire]

Any Party that looks specifically for a Cleric and not well rounded players that can contribute to a group is at a disadvantage.

Most FvS can contribute to healing-even if they focus on Spell DC or Melee.

yep that was my intent on this post to point that out.

cardtrick i think you last point is the big one its about the player more then anything. Personally i know the content and i know where i need to heal and where i need to cast