Build request: Assassinating Rogue

[Havok.cry]

Would like a rogue speced to succeed at assassinate. I have 32pt builds and start at lvl 4. I would Like it to be a pure rogue for the capstone. Would like it to be str based and twf.

[karl_k0ch]

I wouldn't play or suggest an Int-based assassin, because it's far more common to be in regular fights than in Situations where you can use Assassinate reliably. (And the OP was requesting a Str-based build, too.)

So the focus of this post is how to incorporate a good Assassinate Chance on a typical pure rogue build, such as this one: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=266083


Starting with that build, if you want to bump your Assassinate Chance a bit, and can afford to use a +2 Dex tome before level 9, you could also start with 15 Dex and 13 Int on that Halfling.

Stepping a bit away from SA DPS, and having a look at other races, one could also go with 16/15/14/15/8/8 on a human or half-elf, which opens up the human versatility enhancement for even more Int. Drow would allow even 16 in Str/Dex/Int at the start, but at the expense of 12 Con, which hurts your HP quite a bit. I'm not considering HOrc here, since they get a penalty to int.

Note that you could also go with Khopesh instead of OTWF, on either of the Halfling, Human or Half-Elf version.


As a conclusion, I'd probably go with Human, 16/15/14/15/8/8, Str-based.
Feats: 1: Toughness, TWF, 3: *, 6: *, 9: ITWF, 12: IC: Slash, 15: GTWF, 18:*, where * can be one of Khopesh, OTWF and PA. If you don't want to bother with buying Khopeshes while leveling, take IC: Pierce at 12, use rapiers until you take Khopesh at 18 and swap IC:Pierce for IC: Slash when you start using Khopeshes.
Rogue Feats: Opportunist, Improved Evasion, Skill Mastery, Crippling Strike/Skill Mastery.

[Havok.cry]

Thanks for the break down and reasoning's. I will check out that thread
Edit: If I go half-elf which dilettante would you recommend. I was thinking fighter because it would open up scimitars.

[suszterpatt]

I wouldn't play or suggest an Int-based assassin, because it's far more common to be in regular fights than in Situations where you can use Assassinate reliably. (And the OP was requesting a Str-based build, too.)

As a player of an INT based assassin, I beg to differ. Assassinate works on a LOT of stuff, and with proper tactics you can reliably assassinate in almost every quest.

That said, if you invest heavily in INT you likely won't have the points to get both DEX and STR to a good level. At that point, I'd recommend a finesse build with 10-12 base STR (+tomes and items) and high DEX. Yes, your regular attacks won't hit that hard, but sneak attacks and assassinate WILL make up for it in a typical quest, especially with the capstone.

[karl_k0ch]

As a player of an INT based assassin, I beg to differ. Assassinate works on a LOT of stuff, and with proper tactics you can reliably assassinate in almost every quest.

I think that the usability of Assassinate largely depends on the playing style. I tend to use Assassinate every now and then, and I assume that players with a less aggressive playing style than myself can make much more use of the Assassinate ability than I do.

[Havok.cry]

As a player of an INT based assassin, I beg to differ. Assassinate works on a LOT of stuff, and with proper tactics you can reliably assassinate in almost every quest.

That said, if you invest heavily in INT you likely won't have the points to get both DEX and STR to a good level. At that point, I'd recommend a finesse build with 10-12 base STR (+tomes and items) and high DEX. Yes, your regular attacks won't hit that hard, but sneak attacks and assassinate WILL make up for it in a typical quest, especially with the capstone.

I have tried finesse builds and never liked them. I know they work for some people but they just don't fit me.

[Aerendil]

As a player of an INT based assassin, I beg to differ. Assassinate works on a LOT of stuff, and with proper tactics you can reliably assassinate in almost every quest.

It works on a LOT of stuff, yes, but pulling it off is sometimes an exercise in frustration.

You try Assassinating any non-red in VoD, for instance. It's impossible. You can't get close enough to them before their cleaves and such on the other melee take you out of stealth.

IMO, from 12-20, having a reasonable starting Int of 12-14ish range and wearing a +6 int item should be enough to Assassinate anything with probably an 80% chance.
Once you get to 20, however, if you plan on doing Epics and Assassinating there, you may need to alter your build somewhat with a LR and/or exceptional Int gear.

[Bodic]

As a player of an INT based assassin, I beg to differ. Assassinate works on a LOT of stuff, and with proper tactics you can reliably assassinate in almost every quest.

That said, if you invest heavily in INT you likely won't have the points to get both DEX and STR to a good level. At that point, I'd recommend a finesse build with 10-12 base STR (+tomes and items) and high DEX. Yes, your regular attacks won't hit that hard, but sneak attacks and assassinate WILL make up for it in a typical quest, especially with the capstone.

I would like you to define Int based 18+5 lvlups or what as I have a 12 base Int and a +40 DC so will say 18 that mean you can get a +43 DC right if not then your doing it wrong.

[brzytki]

I have tried finesse builds and never liked them. I know they work for some people but they just don't fit me.

The thing is u'll be hard pressed for ability points unless u have 34/36 pt build available. You want ur rogue to be STR based (guess around 16-18 STR), have TWF line (at least 15 DEX if u don't have +3 tome sitting in ur bank), not be squishy (something around 12-16 CON) and high INT (14-16). That's 4 abilities that u'll have to get high enough for this concept to work, completely dumping 2 other (WIS ofc is out of the question but it would be nice to have some points in CHA too).

I'd go with what karl_k0ch proposed. In fact, my 36pt human assassin's stats are 17/14/15/14/8/11 with enhancements to boost CON and STR (CON and INT before i ate +3 INT tome). She has all i need: STR based, TWF, non-squishiness, moderately high assassinate dc and some more points in UMD than standard build.

[suszterpatt]

It works on a LOT of stuff, yes, but pulling it off is sometimes an exercise in frustration.

You try Assassinating any non-red in VoD, for instance. It's impossible. You can't get close enough to them before their cleaves and such on the other melee take you out of stealth.

IMO, from 12-20, having a reasonable starting Int of 12-14ish range and wearing a +6 int item should be enough to Assassinate anything with probably an 80% chance.
Once you get to 20, however, if you plan on doing Epics and Assassinating there, you may need to alter your build somewhat with a LR and/or exceptional Int gear.

Funnily enough, I can pull off assassinate on the devils fairly often, considering my ~130 ping. I completely agree that it can be difficult and annoying, but once you get the hang of it, you'll never want to go back to just beating them down.

I would like you to define Int based 18+5 lvlups or what as I have a 12 base Int and a +40 DC so will say 18 that mean you can get a +43 DC right if not then your doing it wrong.

Well, on my assassin (1st TR drow), I did:

18 base
05 level ups
04 tome
06 item
03 exc
__________
36 standing (+13 mod)

I only have 18 levels of rogue, so that's 10+18+13 = 41 DC standing, 42 with +2 INT ship buff. If I went full rogue and got the capstone (which in hindsight I should have done), that'd be 45.

[Calebro]

I think that the usability of Assassinate largely depends on the playing style. I tend to use Assassinate every now and then, and I assume that players with a less aggressive playing style than myself can make much more use of the Assassinate ability than I do.

You don't have to be less aggressive to assassinate. Aggressive players can assassinate just fine.
Step 1: Place assassinate next to Stealth on your hotbar. <as 6 and 7 for this example>
Step 2: Jump
Step 3: While in air, quickly hit 6, to enter stealth
Step 4: At the peak of your jump, or when you get to the target, hit 7 to assassinate
Step 5: Profit

You simply have to be in stealth. Using the run/jump method means you don't even have to slow down to use it.

[svinja]

As a conclusion, I'd probably go with Human, 16/15/14/15/8/8, Str-based.
Feats: 1: Toughness, TWF, 3: *, 6: *, 9: ITWF, 12: IC: Slash, 15: GTWF, 18:*, where * can be one of Khopesh, OTWF and PA. If you don't want to bother with buying Khopeshes while leveling, take IC: Pierce at 12, use rapiers until you take Khopesh at 18 and swap IC:Pierce for IC: Slash when you start using Khopeshes.
Rogue Feats: Opportunist, Improved Evasion, Skill Mastery, Crippling Strike/Skill Mastery.

I do not have this build but have played with a guy who used it (well, I'm not sure, but I tried recreating his build with his stats and gear in mind and this is exactly what I came up with) and he CRUSHED. 34 STR 32 INT ship buffed without really sacrificing much. Actually, I managed to get 31 int at best when trying to recreate it (without stupid things such as wasting a slot on an int item just to get +7, which he didn't do anyway), so I guess he ate a +3 tome because he wasn't a TR. But 30 is still nice.

[.Revenga.]

As a player of an INT based assassin, I beg to differ. Assassinate works on a LOT of stuff, and with proper tactics you can reliably assassinate in almost every quest.

That said, if you invest heavily in INT you likely won't have the points to get both DEX and STR to a good level. At that point, I'd recommend a finesse build with 10-12 base STR (+tomes and items) and high DEX. Yes, your regular attacks won't hit that hard, but sneak attacks and assassinate WILL make up for it in a typical quest, especially with the capstone.

I surely can see the fun in this build, but the problem is your best performance is in the situations where you need it the least: versus trash.

It's bosses and red names that pose most of the challenge and to kill those you need damage, dps, strenght.

I dont recommend any assassin taking more then 14 base int, you can hit an assasinate dc of 40 with it if you want, you won't reliably assasinate epic melee mobs, you will be able to take out the casters, which is a perfect balance imo.

For any other non epic content your dc will be high enough to assasinate reliably, with the only exception being hard/elite melee mobs in amrath.

[suszterpatt]

You don't have to be less aggressive to assassinate. Aggressive players can assassinate just fine.
Step 1: Place assassinate next to Stealth on your hotbar. <as 6 and 7 for this example>
Step 2: Jump
Step 3: While in air, quickly hit 6, to enter stealth
Step 4: At the peak of your jump, or when you get to the target, hit 7 to assassinate
Step 5: Profit

You simply have to be in stealth. Using the run/jump method means you don't even have to slow down to use it.

Can you do a double assassinate while airborne? If not, I wouldn't advise this. Also, it's easier imo to just let a tank grab aggro then hit the mob from behind. Some careful timing may be needed, but still.

I surely can see the fun in this build, but the problem is your best performance is in the situations where you need it the least: versus trash.

It's bosses and red names that pose most of the challenge and to kill those you need damage, dps, strenght.

I dont recommend any assassin taking more then 14 base int, you can hit an assasinate dc of 40 with it if you want, you won't reliably assasinate epic melee mobs, you will be able to take out the casters, which is a perfect balance imo.

For any other non epic content your dc will be high enough to assasinate reliably, with the only exception being hard/elite melee mobs in amrath.

I wouldn't put off efficiency against trash so quickly. Yes, they may not be threatening on a per encounter basis, but there's a lot of them. Knocking one (or two) out at the beginning of the fight can save some resources, and it adds up throughout the quest, so you'll have more oomph against the boss. It's a great tactical advantage if used against the right opponents (e.g. casters with AoE spells, healers, mobs who trip the tanks, etc).

And hey, it's not like I can't still do respectable DPS against bosses. But yeah, it's definitely not for everyone.

[.Revenga.]

I wouldn't put off efficiency against trash so quickly. Yes, they may not be threatening on a per encounter basis, but there's a lot of them. Knocking one (or two) out at the beginning of the fight can save some resources, and it adds up throughout the quest, so you'll have more oomph against the boss. It's a great tactical advantage if used against the right opponents (e.g. casters with AoE spells, healers, mobs who trip the tanks, etc).

With some CC from a caster/bard they get mostly harmless, and CC has always been present in the epics i ran. But again i too enjoy assasinating alot and i sure see the advantages of high int for an assassin.

And hey, it's not like I can't still do respectable DPS against bosses. But yeah, it's definitely not for everyone.

This is the point that i was making, it's not a build for everyone, you're on a TR toon, which helps with ability points, you know the class and end game well too. That might not be true for the average player starting a rogue. If you start an int based assassin, you got to know what you're doing.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

Can you do a double assassinate while airborne? If not, I wouldn't advise this. Also, it's easier imo to just let a tank grab aggro then hit the mob from behind. Some careful timing may be needed, but still.

Well I find that there is careful timing needed when jump assassinating as well. I do it rarely, and situationally. I can't say I've noticed if I can pull off a double assassinate by jumping. Really I do not use that tactic that often -- but I do have my Stealth and Assassinate hotbar'ed next to each other (5 and 6) as Calebro.

I will start paying more attention and see if I can double that way. Lagmonster sometimes bothers me when I jump like that.

[Illiain]

Edit: If I go half-elf which dilettante would you recommend. I was thinking fighter because it would open up scimitars.

What do scimitars bring that rapiers don't besides a better selection of epic dps weapons? If you're going to be using GS weapons most of the time, they deal the exact same damage. If you're really set on using them for how they look, then you can always use Master's Touch scrolls for proficiency.

As for which dilettante, I think Barb or Paladin might be a better choice. You can UMD divine/arcane scrolls, so Cleric or Wizard wouldn't be that useful. Barb gives you more hps/con and Paladin gives you better saves.

[Havok.cry]

Barb might be a good choice, but I won't have the charisma to get pally dil. And slashing breaks some DRs that piercing doesn't, also it would mean I would not need to respec a feat when I pick up khopeshes.

I have never heard of double assassinate, is it just getting assassinate on an offhand proc on the same target? Thinking of that makes me wonder if assassinate can proc on glancing blows from a THF weapon, anyone know?

Also what DC should I get if I want to assassinate stuff in epics?

[brzytki]

Barb might be a good choice, but I won't have the charisma to get pally dil.

That's my point, u have to sacrifices something as u don't have enough ability points on 32pt build to fit everything u want.

And slashing breaks some DRs that piercing doesn't

Then again, piercing breakss some DRs that slashing doesn't.

I have never heard of double assassinate, is it just getting assassinate on an offhand proc on the same target? Thinking of that makes me wonder if assassinate can proc on glancing blows from a THF weapon, anyone know?

Basically, if u have 2 weapons equipped, u have 2-3 shots at insta-kill (3 if u are lucky enough to get a doublestrike). So theoretically u can kill up to 3 mobs with assassinate provided each of them fails their save. But if the first mob saves ur assassinate from ur main hand, u have another chance from offhand. If it saves again, then u only have slim doublestrike chance to insta-kill it.

Also what DC should I get if I want to assassinate stuff in epics?

With 40 dc i can assassinate most casters on first try, melees i'd say around 50%, maybe a little more.

[suszterpatt]

I have never heard of double assassinate, is it just getting assassinate on an offhand proc on the same target?

A TWF attack from sneak mode makes 2 attacks. If the first one hits an enemy and it fails its save, the second attack can strike another enemy and also count as an assassinate. Even better, there's a ~0.5 second delay between the first and second attack, allowing you to move towards the next target (faster sneaking and striding boots are great for this). If you manage to proc a double strike, you can kill up to three enemies in one swing.

Another scenario is an enemy that makes its save the first time, in which case you get to try again with the offhand attack. If you carry a puncturing weapon in the main hand (ideally a rapier with IC:Piercing) and the first attack scored a critical, the enemy's Fort save will now be a point or two lower, making it that much easier for it to fail.

Thinking of that makes me wonder if assassinate can proc on glancing blows from a THF weapon, anyone know?

IIRC two handed attacks from sneak mode have no glancing blows, so...