Build Critique - The Pure Rogue Experience

[Pithrin]

Hail and well met! (That's about the extent of the RP I have time for anymore )

I have to admit, with time constraints, I spend more time reading the forums on my phone whilst traveling than actual play time in game but I'm hoping that will change in the near future.

Have been reading Rogue forum threads from as far back as '07 to current and there is a LOT of good info out there if you're willing/determined to mine for it. I'm looking for a critique of this build and some answers/opinions on some questions. But first, a little history.

Beta and live thru Gianthold and then went on several in/out breaks over the years. Returned last year to roll up a monk and take it to twenty. Did several Shrouds and a few other raids and then life called again and I had to bow out just before Airships were arriving. Returned about a month ago (just missing the CC Event ) and went through all the update/change threads to survey what I've missed.

My wife has also returned, after a nearly four year hiatus, (read: school+work+kids) and we've got a duo Rgr/Rog, FvS that's progressing much slower than I'd like due to schedule issues.

In PnP I'm usually the Divine and it transferred here as well in the early stages. Have two Clr's, two FvS and two Pally hybrids. I enjoy guild runs when I can stay in long enough to contribute and I don't have a problem with PUG's. When it gets to be too much I can always solo / craft but I'd rather contribute in a group if at all possible.

I'm looking for my first 'pure rogue experience'. I chose human for the extra feat and skill points. I declined khopesh due to my lack of funds for decent weapons at level and choose rapiers since I have a decent stock passed down from my Warchanter.

Yes, this is a 'strength' build, TWF, Assasin III (well, my take on it anyway) There are several posters who have listed similar builds here on the forums and it's to their credit, not mine, for the concept of such. I've tried to blend what I think will be the best overall for my initial rogue experience.

Things I'm concerned with:

STR: With a +6 item, unbuffed, will 28 STR be enough damage increase?

DEX: With items, will my Reflex save be enough to make full use of Imp. Evasion? I'm done grinding for AC. This character is going for utility over AC. Just doesn't seem worth it for this rogue.

CON: This has got to be the lowest HP character I've ever rolled (I'm used to dwarves). I did take the +1 CON Enh for human to qualify for third tier Toughness Enh and without crafted gear I'll be odd at 20. I haven't done the full HP breakdown yet, still concerned I won't like the results after I see them.

INT: is starting high (as compared to a lot of other builds I've seen posted) but I wanted a great number of skill points to make sure that I could max all the rogue skills that I might want either solo or group. Jump is going to sit @10 for the 40 ceiling with spell/item. Balance will be 20 with +6 Dex item and should allow for decent recovery. Also considering my Assassinate DC. How does the breakdown look, overall, in your opinion?

WIS: /Dump

CHA: Points here for UMD

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The Pure  Rogue Experience
Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(20 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 252
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 9
Reflex: 16
Will: 6

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             15                    22
Dexterity            15                    18
Constitution         14                    17
Intelligence         14                    18
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma             12                    14

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               5                    17
Bluff                 5                    32
Concentration         2                     4
Diplomacy             5                    26
Disable Device        6                    28
Haggle                1                    23
Heal                 -1                     1
Hide                  6                    36
Intimidate            1                     3
Jump                  6                    11
Listen               -1                     1
Move Silently         6                    36
Open Lock             6                    28
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                2                     5
Search                6                    28
Spot                  3                    24
Swim                  2                     7
Tumble                3                    28
Use Magic Device      5                    29

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Rogue)


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 4 (Rogue)


Level 5 (Rogue)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Improved Hide I
Enhancement: Improved Hide II
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 7 (Rogue)


Level 8 (Rogue)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost III
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III


Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind


Level 17 (Rogue)


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV


Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery
Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Deadly Shadow

Appreciate in advance your thoughts, opinions and advice on making my first rogue, and first build post to the forums, the change in pace I'm looking for....

[Krago]

May drop Over sized for increased crit range on piercing, the -2 to your off hand should be made up for with increased crits.

[Calebro]

Looks like a pretty standard TWF Assassin for the most part.
Your Str is adequate. I wouldn't make it any lower however. That's the minimum starting Str for any non-finesse melee that I'd recommend. But as a human, the highest you could get it would be 18, which would only be +2 to what you have at start, and between +1 and +2 to what you'll end up with considering equal gearing at end game.

One thing I'd like to point out is that Cha doesn't affect Will save unless you take the Force of Personality feat. Will save is based off of Wisdom, not Charisma. But with the exception of a few specific builds, that feat isn't really useful, except during leveling. Once you get to higher levels, Will save is almost redundant in most cases because the proper gear/buffs make you immune to almost everything that targets Will.

All in all, looks fine to me.

May drop Over sized for increased crit range on piercing, the -2 to your off hand should be made up for with increased crits.

He took IC at 12 and used the feat normally reserved for Khopesh, Quick Draw, or a Past Life on OTWF instead.

[Pithrin]

May drop Over sized for increased crit range on piercing, the -2 to your off hand should be made up for with increased crits.

IC Piercing taken at lvl 12. OTWF taken early to bridge the gap and can be swapped out at later levels for another feat. If, for example, I ever get around to crafting GS Khops I could slot the EWP: Khopesh. Don't have plans to do that but there are several other feats that could take it's place.

I'm open to other feat suggestions as well for OTWF's replacement at higher levels.

Thanks Krago.

[Pithrin]

One thing I'd like to point out is that Cha doesn't affect Will save unless you take the Force of Personality feat. Will save is based off of Wisdom, not Charisma. But with the exception of a few specific builds, that feat isn't really useful, except during leveling. Once you get to higher levels, Will save is almost redundant in most cases because the proper gear/buffs make you immune to almost everything that targets Will.

All in all, looks fine to me.

*Edited out the WILL save miss RE: CHA;

Thanks Calebro

[bladepro]

You should be able to get to around 350 - 375 hp with +6 con, minos, gfl, 45 hp shroud item which is enough. everything else looks good too. should have enough reflex with buffs. otwf is good early but should be swapped out for ic-(weapon choice) once it is available. I have a build fairly similar to your but as a half-elf with pali dilly for boost to saves and at lvl 10 its great to play as long as i remember that its not my barb and let the others take agro

[Calebro]

I'm open to other feat suggestions as well for OTWF's replacement at higher levels.

Actually, OTWF isn't a bad choice for this particular build.
The 1 or 2 points you'll be lacking on your to-hit because of your slightly lower starting Str are made up for with this feat to place you on even footing with max Str builds that don't have it. You'll just be doing a point or two less damage per strike, which isn't exactly a big deal when you take 100 point sneak attacks into account.
Personally, I'd leave it as is.

[brzytki]

May drop Over sized for increased crit range on piercing, the -2 to your off hand should be made up for with increased crits.

It's actually 2nd time today that i wonder if u read posts u reply to.

OP, would be short cause i don't have much time. This looks like a nice build, with 12 starting CHA and Skill focus UMD u should have no trouble using Heal scrolls, later u might want to swap out that feat for sth else like Quickdraw or Khopesh proficiency if u like.

I wouldn't take Slippery Mind as it's of little benefit, i'd recommend Crippling Strike or 2nd Skill Mastery.

You might want to consider shuffling your stats a little since u list +1 CON in your enhancements so that u end up with odd number of CON.

[Calebro]

You might want to consider shuffling your stats a little since u list +1 CON in your enhancements so that u end up with odd number of CON.

Again, on this point I'd like to recommend that he leave it as is.
Considering he's a fairly casual gamer <by all appearances>, we can assume that Epic gear may be a bit of a stretch.
But a +1 Exc Con isn't out of the question. And that +1 Exc would put him at an even number.

[ElfedLied4]

A couple comments on your build.

For to-hit you'll want a couple Divine Power clickies for high AC mobs. You may also want to get exceptional str on ToD rings. But for the most part, if you don't have aggro (and you have a SA item like Tharne's Goggles) you'll hit whatever needs hitting.

Your reflex save should be plenty high enough for saving against most spell casting mobs. 12 base + Dex bonus +5 resistance item +1 Haste +4 Greater Heroism +1/2 Luck +1 ritual = 23/24 +Dex bonus (which is 7 if you add a +6 item) for 30/31 total.

reference:

33 is about the magic number to never fail Reflex saves from spellcasting mobs (except on a 1). You'll still almost always fail traps, but there isn't much difference between a 33 Reflex save and a 43. (For example - 32 is enough to only fail Elite Horoth's saves on a 1... it's just the only endgame boss I know the save DCs on definitively)

HP: if you gear up with Greater/Superior False Life, Toughness, GS HP item, con item, (rage spell) you'll be fine with a starting 14 Con.

Cha doesn't help your will saves, that's Wisdom. Cha helps UMD and social skills.


Feats: You're using your extra feat from being human for Oversized Two Weapon fighting while wielding rapiers. Rapiers are light weapons, so I don't know if it is helping you at all.


Overall, it looks like a solid build.

/Edit I write slowly, so there were no responses when I started. I didn't mean to repeat what others said.

[Calebro]

Feats: You're using your extra feat from being human for Oversized Two Weapon fighting while wielding rapiers. Rapiers are light weapons, so I don't know if it is helping you at all.

Rapiers are only light weapons insomuch as Finesse in concerned.
Raipers are One Handed weapons that ACT as if they were light weapons for the sake of Finesse, and ONLY for the sake of Finesse.
Wielding a rapier in the off-hand is the same as wielding a khopesh in the off-hand.

[ElfedLied4]

Thanks Calebro for correcting me.

[brzytki]

Again, on this point I'd like to recommend that he leave it as is.
Considering he's a fairly casual gamer <by all appearances>, we can assume that Epic gear may be a bit of a stretch.
But a +1 Exc Con isn't out of the question. And that +1 Exc would put him at an even number.

See, that's why i shouldn't post at late night, keep forgetting basic things...

[Thaxlsillyia]

A nice and well rounded build.

How about 10 charisma and 16 str and human adaptability str instead of con? As somebody else suggested, i would drop slippery mind for a skill focus or crippling strike as many spells effectly make you immune to stuff that need a will save. But it definitely helps when leveling.

And have you considered halflings or h-orcs? and since you are a rapier user may be drow?

[Calebro]

See, that's why i shouldn't post at late night, keep forgetting basic things...

Right. We have to look at it from his point of view and for what he's going to do with it, not from our point of view and what we'd do with it.

This may not be the massive uber-gamer build, but for a casual gamer this is a really good build.
For a casual gamer I would argue that this build is BETTER than the cookie cutter uber-gamer build is.... for his purposes.

On Slippery Mind: As some have mentioned, it's kind of a waste.
If your Will save is so low that you need it, chances are that you'll simply fail the save a second time.
Personally I'd go with a second Mastery, as others have suggested. But it's really a matter of preference and it doesn't matter one way or the other. There are times when SM will help, so it's not a complete waste.

[Feithlin]

Nobody mentioned it, but Int is a bit too high imo. With 12 int, you will have no problem to get everything you need, especially with a human. With those points, start with 16 Str and even the final Str with human adaptability.
With 12 int (and +1 skill point/level from human), you can max 10 skills: Spot, Search, DD, UMD, Open locks, Hide, Move silently, some ranks in various skills, 10 ranks in Jump, 12 in Balance and 1 in Tumble (you don't need more than that). That's 2 more skills to max, probably Bluff and Diplomacy.
Another option, since you don't want to use khopeshes and won't have a Rad II before some time, you could take CE (to unlock the 2nd) and Imp. Feint. This will provide 2 timers for 5 sec. of SA each.

[Pithrin]

Right. We have to look at it from his point of view and for what he's going to do with it, not from our point of view and what we'd do with it.

This may not be the massive uber-gamer build, but for a casual gamer this is a really good build.
For a casual gamer I would argue that this build is BETTER than the cookie cutter uber-gamer build is.... for his purposes.

On Slippery Mind: As some have mentioned, it's kind of a waste.
If your Will save is so low that you need it, chances are that you'll simply fail the save a second time.
Personally I'd go with a second Mastery, as others have suggested. But it's really a matter of preference and it doesn't matter one way or the other. There are times when SM will help, so it's not a complete waste.

Okay, ready to agree that Slippery Mind is out. Like the idea of the second skill mastery. Considering how late I was taking Slippery Mind and with trinket, spells in group at that level I probably wouldn't have an issue. *I like the statement that 'you'll simply fail the save a second time.' Hadn't considered that it wouldn't really make a difference; I was just trying to make the best of a bad WILL save. But, if that's easily overcome later I won't worry about it. It's one of those 'looks good on paper' but in game reality... meh.

Thanks to those who suggested dropping it.

[Calebro]

I'm on Khyber Pith. Shoot me your current toon's name, or this one when you get hi rolled up, and we can chat.

[Pithrin]

Nobody mentioned it, but Int is a bit too high imo. With 12 int, you will have no problem to get everything you need, especially with a human. With those points, start with 16 Str and even the final Str with human adaptability.
With 12 int (and +1 skill point/level from human), you can max 10 skills: Spot, Search, DD, UMD, Open locks, Hide, Move silently, some ranks in various skills, 10 ranks in Jump, 12 in Balance and 1 in Tumble (you don't need more than that). That's 2 more skills to max, probably Bluff and Diplomacy.
Another option, since you don't want to use khopeshes and won't have a Rad II before some time, you could take CE (to unlock the 2nd) and Imp. Feint. This will provide 2 timers for 5 sec. of SA each.

Had considered this build option Feithlin. But when I hit the planner I went with the higher INT and put the points into more flavorful/profitable skills: Tumble, Haggle. Haven't capped my Warchanter and LR'd her into a hagglebot at this point. AP's for dropping CON and adding STR are moot. +1 hit / dmg for the overall result versus being able to tumble in style and squeeze out a little more from the brokers. Plat isn't an issue per se, I never want for anything, I just make do. Guild gifted my monies when I left, and they're no longer playing, but farming runs from time to time are enough to keep leveling characters in style.

Will give this a little more thought though, thanks.

[QuantumFX]

You seem to have a good base build that you can adapt to changes easily enough. Personally I would shave off 2 points of INT, put it into a base 16 STR and pull back on the tumble investment. The flip animations are fun but sometimes they can be a drawback. (ex. Running the tiles in the Abbot.)

Piercing is not a bad option. The Xoriat quest chain drops a named DR breaking rapier and the Crystal Cove even gave a nice rogue oriented shortsword. This is perfect for a first life.

Be careful with your usage of Power Attack. I would either pick it up at level 1 and use it with quarterstaves or wait until level 18 if I wanted to go the TWF route. The -2 to hit from TWF and the -5 from PA can be really annoying at low levels on a 3/4 BAB character. On a quarterstaff the -5 to hit is offset by the THF damage bonus. Most of the stuff mentioned to offset the penalties (High Plus weapons, Divine Power Clickies, sneak attack items) tend to be high level items. (YMMV but realize PA is not the black and white class defining feat that it is for barbarians.)

For rogue bonus feats. I still like Crippling Strike for non-epic quests. Pairing it with Weakening of Enfeebling weapons is a lot of fun and a nice option until you have radiance weapons. (WoE is available in both piercing and slashing versions)

Make sure you setup and use your 20 second clickies. Assassin Poison, Human Attack/Damage Boost and Rogue Haste Boost is a potent combo to activate when you’re running into a fight.