This Is The Most Disgraceful Thing I Have Ever Heard

[LordPiglet]

Sometimes you have to say Screw policy. I am not saying that this is 100% one of those times. But those firefighters have to live every day remembering the actions they did or did not take. If they can sleep well at night with what they have done then so be it. If they could have done more then i really feal sorry for them because that is a burden i would not want to carry for the rest of my life.

They also have to live their lives and try to go home safe to their family every day.

I am the son of a firefighter. I was about 8 years old and woke up one Sunday morning. I went into the living room, my mom was already up. She had the news on but was in the kitchen, but I changed the channel to cartoons. Next thing I know she's yelling at me. At 3 am, my father had been called in, 5 alarm fire, building collapse. One firefighter down and missing, several of them injured (including a close family friend). Kids my age lost their father that day, in fact that firefighter was younger then I am now.

My second thought was the city had the funding for training, the firefighter likely had previously qualified, but due to new budget constraints were no longer given "said qualification".ie paid more for the training and authorization. So it is possible they did nothing to prove a point and become "requalified" ie paid more. Im not stating this as a fact just a possiblilty.

If you think a firefighter didn't go out there to prove a point well, I have a whole lot of words to say to you, and not a single one of them is allowed on this board.

[caberonia]

Hey now. It's one thing to not want to risk your life to save someone who wants to commit suicide, it's another to just be callous.

Things happen and people change. We don't know what the guy's problems were. And how he may or may not be able to get through it. For all we know he might've been the one who could've discovered the cure to some deadly ailment.

At the very least he was someone's son. He doesn't deserve to just be thought of as a worthless person.

he deserves what he wanted. To be offed in neck deep water. Were not talking about someone that was useful to the rest of the human race here.. were talking about someone who apparently had no grip on reality and thought it best to off himself in neck deep water. People are no diff from any other animal in my mind.. if they have defects that cause them to die then good for us.. its better to have one person off himself from a defect than 300 of his decendents.

[eonfreon]

My first thought were how about at least throwing him a rope? You dont have to get to close to get injured, but at least give him the option to "change his mind" by grabbing the rope.

My second thought was the city had the funding for training, the firefighter likely had previously qualified, but due to new budget constraints were no longer given "said qualification".ie paid more for the training and authorization. So it is possible they did nothing to prove a point and become "requalified" ie paid more. Im not stating this as a fact just a possiblilty.

My last thought was that the city did not have the money in the budget, but then mysteriously "found" the money. Where did this money come from? Santa?Easter Bunny? Likely it was always there just some bean counter found a better use for it. I put the majority of the blame on the city who decided that a human life is not worth whatever this X amount of funding is. Also the city will be shorter on cash after they pay for whatever litigation is to fallow. Likely they will have to Raise taxes on us citizens to pay for all the extra millions it will cost + the money they tried to save from the budget. This is a perfect example of much of americas government thinking today imo.

I'd rather get facts before I worry about "possibilities". But to each his own.

As far as this being a perfect example of "much of americas government thinking today", well to each his own, again, because that's getting too political. But if you really think the government nowadays is much different than in the mythical "days of yore" than I've got some prime beachfront real estate to sell you.

[baddax]

doesn't matter. Guy had a mental defect that was best left out of the gene pool and he offed himself. I'm happy firefighters didn't drag this guy back into the gene pool. Its not like this guy was out swimming and ran into trouble. He made a decision to off himself, so fine let him off himself.

List of famous people with depression..........http://www.depression-help-resource....sed-people.htm

I am sure some of these defective people have thought of suicide. Some of these people you might even admire and or look up to. Maybe some of them have impacted the world in a significant way. 2 that jump out at me right away are Stephen Hawking and Abraham lincoln.

[caberonia]

List of famous people with depression..........http://www.depression-help-resource....sed-people.htm

I am sure some of these defective people have thought of suicide. Some of these people you might even adnire and or look up to. Maybe some of them have impacted the world in a significant way. 2 that jump out at me right away are Stephen Hawking and Abraham lincoln.

hemmingway ftw (he's not on your list). famous people committing suicide is a boon not a bane thanks. Being well known or credited with something is not reason enough for you to be in the gene pool when the objective is the survival of the species.

[sephiroth1084]

There is a soldier who just received the Medal of Honor for trying to throw an enemy grenade away to save himself and others. He got his hand blown off for his trouble. The president and the entire military consider him a hero, but I guess he's just stupid. Being brave in a dangerous situation is always stupid from a self preservation point of view, but sometimes you just have to do it.

Again, a poor comparison.

The soldier was willing to trade his life for his fellows'. That is heroic. He likely would have died if he had done nothing at all, so clearly doing something wasn't stupid. The choices then, I suppose, were to run away, lay on the grenade, or throw it away. I don't know if running away would have saved him, or if he thought it could have, but that certainly would have been contrary to his duty and honor and our sense of what a soldier should do in that situation, though that may have been the smartest thing to do from the perspective of self-preservation.

Jumping on the grenade probably would have been the bravest, but if there was enough time to pick up the thing and throw it, maybe not the smartest, though I doubt he could have known just how long he had before the grenade exploded, so I'd never call him stupid for not doing so. Clearly, this would have been the least self-serving of his choices.

Picking up and throwing the grenade falls somewhere between those two options: he is at greater risk of dying than he would be running away (again, I assume that was an option for this hypothetical), but he was also more likely to survive than if he covered the grenade with his body to save his comrades. There are many things going on in such situations, I'd imagine, and one must react, so I have no clue whether he weighed these choices in that brief instant or just reacted, but I'd certainly say he was a hero. He acted bravely, and was willing to swap his life for that of another, or that of a few others. That isn't stupid. In fact, from the perspective of the "greater good" it was the smartest thing he could have done (assuming he knew he had time enough to pick up and throw the grenade), as it not only saved the lives of other men, but was the best route to both doing that and not sacrificing his own.


How is that at all related to the scenario we've been debating for pages?

[sephiroth1084]

Well, certainly the fact that the man had (apparently) willingly walked himself out into the water and then hung out in one spot colored the response from the emergency service personnel, at least a little bit. Personally, I think their response would have been justified no matter the situation, but I'd imagine that their feelings about breaching protocol would have been a bit different if the person in need of saving had been a surfer, or swimmer, or had fallen off a boat or something. In this case, they had both to content with the existent hazards of saving a drowning victim and someone who clearly was not in their right mind or wanted to die. That certainly makes a difference in the way someone reacts to the scene, internally at least--it's just added danger along with a little less pressing need.

[Ganolyn]

This is the last time I will post on this subject as the arguments have become circular. I feel that between the CG and the marinas in close proximity to the occurance someone in authority could have commandeered a light boat and at least tried to toss a life preserver to the guy in an hour. I'm upset that there was no serious attempt to think of something safe and quick to help IMO. The kite boarder may not have been able to tack close enough with the prevailing winds and might not have been willing to ditch his rig to swim to the man. In any case it wasn't his job to do so. I'm peeved that bureaucracy cost a man his life, whether he wanted to die or not. I'm puzzled and dismayed that the CG could not perform one of their primary tasks or even get close enough to try. I'm sure they were busy, there is a lot to do around here. I'm not asking that anyone purposely lose their life in the performace of their duty or be stupid in the execution of it either. I just think the entire thing was preventable and at least they saw the light and will make sure it won't happen again. I hope that is enough for his family to find peace with the whole affair.

[baddax]

I'd rather get facts before I worry about "possibilities". But to each his own.

As far as this being a perfect example of "much of americas government thinking today", well to each his own, again, because that's getting too political. But if you really think the government nowadays is much different than in the mythical "days of yore" than I've got some prime beachfront real estate to sell you.

This is was just my first thought based off of what was said in the reports i watched and read. There may have been a valid reason but according to the reports of the situation at hand i think its a valid question.

And you think society has not changed in the last 20years? I remember carrying a pocket knife to school and no one ever said a word, but now a kid can get expelled for a bottle of aspirin or a butter knife (zero tolerance)?? Not only our government but society in general has chaged much in the last 20-30 years.

They also have to live their lives and try to go home safe to their family every day.

I am the son of a firefighter. I was about 8 years old and woke up one Sunday morning. I went into the living room, my mom was already up. She had the news on but was in the kitchen, but I changed the channel to cartoons. Next thing I know she's yelling at me. At 3 am, my father had been called in, 5 alarm fire, building collapse. One firefighter down and missing, several of them injured (including a close family friend). Kids my age lost their father that day, in fact that firefighter was younger then I am now.

They know this when they sign up for the job. Im sure it takes a special person to sign on a job as a hero (or should anyways). If they go to work every day Worrying about making it home safely every night. Then my guess is they are in the wrong profession. I am not saying they should take unecessary risks but their very jobs by its nature is risky. I work with high voltage electrcty daily. I have safety procedures to follow. I am also human (some might disagree) and have been involved in resquing people from live machinery. If the first and last thing you think about in an emergency is what does the manual say? Then imo you are in the wrong line of work. Like i said sometimes you have to say screw the rules and do the right thing. Hell even the captain said he wouldnt have blamed them for breaking the rules. That says alot. This was definitely a gray area.

If you think a firefighter didn't go out there to prove a point well, I have a whole lot of words to say to you, and not a single one of them is allowed on this board.

I am also a realist and have seen the good and bad in many different professions. I see no reason fire fighters would be any different then doctors lawyers police etc etc.

[baddax]

hemmingway ftw (he's not on your list). famous people committing suicide is a boon not a bane thanks. Being well known or credited with something is not reason enough for you to be in the gene pool when the objective is the survival of the species.

/clap
and people call me jaded. I will save your posts to remind me how short sighted and negative people really can be (and as proof that there people more jaded than i)
thank you for an excellent group of posts.

Actually after thinking some more i think the OP is completely wrong with his title. I can think of other things more disgraceful

[eonfreon]

And you think society has not changed in the last 20years? I remember carrying a pocket knife to school and no one ever said a word, but now a kid can get expelled for a bottle of aspirin or a butter knife (zero tolerance)?? Not only our government but society in general has chaged much in the last 20-30 years.

I'm not going to get into because now it would be geting too political, but since you did ask my opinion, I'll give you an abridged version. First of all you said government at first, not society. Due to te inertia present in government, 20 years ago is today, it takes that long for it to catch up, and society is generally way ahed. Moreso now yes, because of technology, but government has been pretty out of sync with society for a rather long time.

So no, it isn't that different 20 years ago than today. Your example with the pocketknife is exactly what government does best and has done best for a long time; it over-reacts. Not different today than 20 years ago. Government is ready to ban something at the drop of a hat, even if it's the symptom and not the cause.

You think it's ridiculous that pocketknives are banned nowadays? For the most part I agree. But there are places 20 years ago where it was banned to wear black trench coats. You would be expelled for doing so. I'm sure you can figure out why.

Over-reaction, yes. Just like then, so it happens now. There was no mythical time when things were all rosy. Some things were better and some things were worse. It's forever in flux.

[sephiroth1084]

Hell even the captain said he wouldnt have blamed them for breaking the rules. That says alot. This was definitely a gray area.

As eonfreon pointed out earlier, he said this to the media while likely facing a ****storm of similarly misinformed ragers to the OP.

If one of his men had gone into the drink and had died without saving the other man's life, you think the other personnel on duty wouldn't have gotten some retraining or some sort of reprimand? If one of his men had gone in, and survived, but failed to save the guy, you think he would have gotten out of it without some sort of reprimand? I doubt it would have been a significant thing, but I also doubt that such actions would have been welcomed either.

It's all in the outcome. If the man died, but the personnel at hand had tried saving him more "heroically" the media would have complained that they hadn't done enough. If they had tried and failed, with two people dead, they'd have lauded the emergency respondent as a hero and would have likely sought for someone to blame for allowing this to occur...maybe the politicians who cut the training program, or maybe they'd lobby for PFDs to get included in the gear going out with every squad car, ambulance and firetruck in town. If the man was saved, but his rescuer drowned, the media would again rain adulation down upon their hero, maybe scold some public servants for the failure that allowed a good man to die, but less sharply than in the previous scenario. Again, this would probably lead to similar lobbying.

Maybe they should have PFDs going out with them, but what else are they packing? Do they have space for something like that? Will carrying it cause them to be too slow getting to something in a more tense situation? I don't know. Can the government afford to outfit everyone with life preservers?

What's the line from A Few Good Men? Something like 'when men don't follow orders, people die?'

[sephiroth1084]

Over-reaction, yes. Just like then, so it happens now. There was no mythical time when things were all rosy. Some things were better and some things were worse. It's forever in flux.

I'm too young to have any experience of this, but my sense of, say, 40 years ago, is that the government(s) were slower to over-react in the way they do now. I could be wrong, but when I hear about the years my dad spent playing with a chemistry set he bought in some department store, with mercury and other hazardous substances, I can't help but think that we have become more reactionary on the whole.

Part of it, I think, is due to the proliferation of media, where information is exchanged in seconds rather than in hours or days, and an increasing sense of...fear in people. This is in the same boat as "helicopter parenting." Was it as prevalent 30 years ago as it is now for parents to keep their children within sight at all times? What percentage of kids, then, were barred from walking down the block on their own when they were young vs. now?

Certainly what was previously a "tragedy" has now become a lawsuit. That, if nothing else, represents a distinct and significant shift in both society and governmental ideologies.

[eonfreon]

I'm too young to have any experience of this, but my sense of, say, 40 years ago, is that the government(s) were slower to over-react in the way they do now. I could be wrong, but when I hear about the years my dad spent playing with a chemistry set he bought in some department store, with mercury and other hazardous substances, I can't help but think that we have become more reactionary on the whole.

Part of it, I think, is due to the proliferation of media, where information is exchanged in seconds rather than in hours or days, and an increasing sense of...fear in people. This is in the same boat as "helicopter parenting." Was it as prevalent 30 years ago as it is now for parents to keep their children within sight at all times? What percentage of kids, then, were barred from walking down the block on their own when they were young vs. now?

Certainly what was previously a "tragedy" has now become a lawsuit. That, if nothing else, represents a distinct and significant shift in both society and governmental ideologies.

This is neither the time nor place, but I will say this:
Yes, things are different, but they are also the same. Shifts are not changes, they are just shifts.

Once again there was no rosy time.

In this century alone: Prohibition, Drug Laws, Segregation, Race Riots, McCarthyism (you know better dead than Red, better rat out your Communist neighbors), etc. Those are just some examples of serious over-reactions. Let's not even go into other centuries with Witch Hunts and Inquisitions.

That's as far as I'm willing to discuss it in a forum that prohibits political discussions. And rightly so. This is not the place for those musings. If you really want to know my opinions then take it to IM's. WHat I think is not relevent to this topic, not even in the "off-topic forum".

And as far as how many children were prohibited from walking down the streets alone, you have to realize how glossed over kidnappings were just 40 years ago. There weren't even "milk carton kids" then, not because kids weren't being kidnapped, but because it "didn't happen around here, that only happens somewhere else".

[MedicMoore]

Sometimes you have to say Screw policy. I am not saying that this is 100% one of those times. But those firefighters have to live every day remembering the actions they did or did not take. If they can sleep well at night with what they have done then so be it. If they could have done more then i really feal sorry for them because that is a burden i would not want to carry for the rest of my life.

Believe me I have played fast and loose with policy during my 20 years of Fire/EMS. But I would never do so at the risk of my life or others. Any of us who work in this field have a lot we have to live with. That is why we have a high rate of heart attacks, divorce, alcoholism, and suicide. It is hard to sit by and watch someone die. I cannot tell you how hard it is to know that you have a patient and you have the skills to save them but you have to sit and watch them die because they have a DNR. Or you get on scene of a car wreck and the patient is alive but bleeding out fast and you have to take 30 minutes getting the vehicle stabilized and cut up before you can do anything to them.....by then it is too late. To find a child that has been knocked from its mothers arms and hit its head on the hardwood floor and started seizing from the massive brain bleed only to die on you before you could get it to the hospital. It is hard to watch someone trapped in a car the has collided with a fuel tanker and caught fire while the driver cannot get out and you can hear him screaming as he burns to death. To know that the residence that is burning to the ground fully involved has a child in it that you can't get too. Yeah......there is a lot of it that can burden a person. But it is a burden that we will carry to the end of our lives. And what we do til then is get up every morning to do it again. Sometimes there are good moments.....sometimes there are bad.

And to give you an example of that. A drugged out stripper involved in a collision with a power pole at high speed. Twenty minutes to extricate. Transported to the ED her live saved by the Fire/EMS crews. Turns around and has a baby. Baby gets knocked from her arms and suffers a skull fracture. Amazing world.

[MedicMoore]

This is the last time I will post on this subject as the arguments have become circular. I feel that between the CG and the marinas in close proximity to the occurance someone in authority could have commandeered a light boat and at least tried to toss a life preserver to the guy in an hour. I'm upset that there was no serious attempt to think of something safe and quick to help IMO. The kite boarder may not have been able to tack close enough with the prevailing winds and might not have been willing to ditch his rig to swim to the man. In any case it wasn't his job to do so. I'm peeved that bureaucracy cost a man his life, whether he wanted to die or not. I'm puzzled and dismayed that the CG could not perform one of their primary tasks or even get close enough to try. I'm sure they were busy, there is a lot to do around here. I'm not asking that anyone purposely lose their life in the performace of their duty or be stupid in the execution of it either. I just think the entire thing was preventable and at least they saw the light and will make sure it won't happen again. I hope that is enough for his family to find peace with the whole affair.

Bureaucracy has cost more people their lives than probably any other establishment in the history of man. How can you say there was no serious attempt to save this man? What basis do you know for a fact that everything wasn't tried to get this man in safely? You don't know. It is your opinion that people stood by and did nothing. Commandeer a boat and go out to rescue him? The Coast Guard said they launched a small boat. What other boat are you going to use? You are very condemning of people who do their best to keep you safe and alive. Sometimes even the best can't do anything to keep the inevitable from occurring.

[Zanuzi]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/fi...y-1116814.html

experienced firefighter with no water rescue training - nothing more to say.



edited for spelling

[Zanuzi]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-...01102415942524

Watch manager = Captain
Station Manager = Battalion Chief

[NaturalHazard]

he deserves what he wanted. To be offed in neck deep water. Were not talking about someone that was useful to the rest of the human race here.. were talking about someone who apparently had no grip on reality and thought it best to off himself in neck deep water. People are no diff from any other animal in my mind.. if they have defects that cause them to die then good for us.. its better to have one person off himself from a defect than 300 of his decendents.

how do you know thats what he wanted? he could of been temporary sick or something delusional from some short term sickness or condition. he might of been useful to the human race for 99.9% of his life and then he might of gotten sick, or had a traumatic experiance or something that led to this. Some people want to jump all over the fire department and the rescue people who where there, or they want to condemn this guy, when the only fact is, none of us where there, we dont know all the facts, so its a little pointless making judgements now.

So its good when anyone with a defect that causes them to die dies? Define what you call defect?

[Envoi]

This is not the most egregious case of bureaucratic inactivity I have ever seen.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346...let-home-burn/

is.