Is 20 Spellsinger worth it after the update?

[IAmNotAWaffle]

I am also under impression she is going to land spells in epics too, even though she melees - how do I know? I tested my wizard and tried a few things I estimate will be about Rosewood's DC and spell use.

Huh, just curious, but would you mind giving me a quick estimated calculation of her enchantment DC's at the cap?

[Bardgellor]

I have always been confused why the majority of players equate SS to CC spell casting specialist. There is nothing about the SS Pre that directs that choice. Sure SS get songs that increase spell DC's and effective level, but they also get the same spells that increase melee to hit and damage. And these spells effect the whole party, not just the bard.

Bards just cannot get top notch spell DC's. They are always going to be behind wizards and sorcerers due to only have lv. 6 spells instead of lv. 9 spells. On top of that bards don't even get the best cc spell, mass hold.

However, I love the 200 sp and +4 to UMD. That lets me dump Chr (well, only 6 build points = dumped) and max out melee stats while still having very useful UMD and a nice mana pool. The songs are just gravy. I have songs to make melee happy and songs to make casters happy. Everyone appreciates grouping with a SS. On top of that the mana regen song makes my own spell pool (everyone's for that matter ) go that much further.

The only feat requirement is Maximize, which I would take anyway for burst healing purposes. Compare this to WC who have to waste a feat on a nearly useless weapon focus, prompting most WC to multiclass to get more feats for melee improvement. This looses them the capstone, which is nice even for melee bards (although not as nice as for casters bards), a full level rating for SP purposes and the lv 20 improvement to Inspire Courage.

7 feats for a melee SS bard:
3x TWF or THF
Maximize
Toughness
IC
PA

And I can still CC if needed. Fascinate still freezes everything and I can case Otto's Irresistible Dance with an acceptable SP when needed.

You don't need any special gear to have survivability in melee. You can wand whip Stoneskin, self cast Displacement and FOM and can keep yourself healed 99% of the time.

Now, you are not a fighter or a barb and cannot act like a meat shield, but you can contribute meaningful melee dps while making everyone else more efficient at what they do.

With the U9 update and the drastic reduction in single target heal SP costs, my mana pool goes much further as a top-off/backup healer.

BTW, I recommend dumping dex and going max strength and THF. I know this does not get the most out of inspire courage, but you are a 3/4 bab class. TWF means a significant investment in DEX, lowering your to hit at least -1 (can't afford 16 build points for str). and lowering your to hit at another -2 for TWF. I would rather maximize my to hit to keep PA on more often. Biggest downside IMO is having to remember to strafe when using fascinate to avoid glancing blows.

[Zachski]

First rule of Fascinate: If you're going to use it, you should be the one running ahead, not the others.

Second rule of Fascinate: Do not criticize Fascinate.

[brinclhof]

It also depends on what you want type of content you want to run your ss bard in to have fun. it is not a requirement to run epics.

Brincl my 17/3 bard rogue has been geared and speced to be the ultimate support toon. Will he out do a pure class in that roll... no but will he be good enough in the roll... most of the time.

I have a enchantment dc of 31 fully buffed...that is good enough to make most mobs up to the inspired quarter dance in a discoball...and I use otto's irr...in amarath.

He has 3 tiers of improved healing and scroll enhancemnt with a Torins choker to supply the greater potency 6 to my heals so normally throw between 60 and 70 point cure mass lights with avg of 100 point cure mass mod cures with maximize turned on. That is enough to solo heal most regular quests.

I'm running 1170 spell points with a mysterious bauble to augment and my spellpoint songs so I normally don't have an issue running out of spell points even when the primary healer.

UMD is in the upper 30's so I can raise dead and use heal scrolls when I have to.

My trap skills are in the mid 40's from the 3 lvls of rogue so I can handle traps in all regular quest so You can take me along, and not have to wait on either a rogue or a healer.

Am I as good as a cleric at healing no....
am I as good a as a lvl 20 rogue at detrapping, no....
Can I dps as good as a fighter....no but now that I'm running epic Crystal cove weapons I can at least contribute there if need be as well.

is he fun to play....oh yeah still my favorite toon...because I love the versatility.

[IAmNotAWaffle]

First rule of Fascinate: If you're going to use it, you should be the one running ahead, not the others.

Second rule of Fascinate: Do not criticize Fascinate.

I'm pretty sure this was referring to my post, well I apologize, but I almost never end up in a group with people who aren't constantly running before I can even finish buffing.

[Alektronic]

I have always been confused why the majority of players equate SS to CC spell casting specialist.

-DC spell song
-CL spell song
-Prereqs for SS (Empower Spell, Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell, Mental Toughness, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment )... 3/6 of them are "CC exclusive" feats. Also, 6/6 deal with magic... making them magical.... that would be CC, spell dps, or healer oriented I assume.
-Capstone for +2 charisma (DC increase)
-Capstone for increase to enchantment spells (DC increase)

^^^ That's why. SS lends itself well to a melee-specced support toon as well, but there's no denying that the PrE was built to be a spell casting specialist (with support and healing in mind).

[Aashrym]

Huh, just curious, but would you mind giving me a quick estimated calculation of her enchantment DC's at the cap?

With the capstone the DC's are the same as a sorc, it's the spell selection we're limited to that's an issue.

38 DC is relatively easy to attain on a spellsinger. Yugo pots, ship buffs, exceptional CHA, +7 CHA epic item, past life feats, etc and we're into 40+. The DC isn't the issue compared to any other caster but a wizard. It's definitely the spell selection limitations that have the impact.... no instant death, no DoT's, extremely poor spell damage.

Before U9 casters were building for enchantment and bards did have strong enchantment abilities. Now building for enchantment is suboptimal as the main casting feature. Building a suboptimal mage using a suboptimal casting line is not the best way to do it and the trade off isn't the same now. Before you ask I also had a little over 1600 SP and a 40 DC, and could heal just fine.

IC and fascinate can be very potent abilities, but they are not enough looking at the caster side of bards. Because they are not affected by going melee.

I decided to LR melee too, and went war chanter 20 again. I have much less SP, the same buffs, and I miss using disco ball but that's about it and it was still redundant with wizard in the group.

I have a BIG increase in DPS going melee with little impact on my CC contributions in a full group. I have a lot less SP for healing now, but I can deal with that too.

[Zachski]

I'm pretty sure this was referring to my post, well I apologize, but I almost never end up in a group with people who aren't constantly running before I can even finish buffing.

You buff, then while everyone is busy fighting a group of monsters, you run ahead and Fascinate the next group :P

[Raithe]

Could I get some clarification on this post; are you saying that bard spellsingers should NOT build to be purely casters?

Well, I'm not here to tell people what they can and can't do, I typically tell people they can play whatever they want, including purposefully building gimps to make the game more challenging. Building a bard that doesn't melee, however, doesn't make the game more challenging - it simply limits options and gameplay to a couple of dimensions.

...but there are simply situations when you get to the end-game runs but don't have the gear yet, where you aren't capable of really helping your party's dps to a significant amount.

According to whom? Take Sorjek, in "Stealer of Souls." Melee are losing a large number of their advantages. Most fighters lose their weapon specializations, barbarians lose their crit enhancements. Everyone loses improved crit or keen on their weapon. A spellsinger that spams a few heals every now and then is totally in the DPS game, even if you don't count the song damage from every weapon in the group in the bard's column.

That being said, I usually don't melee with my bard simply because I'm lacking the gear to survive and deal decent damage at this time,...

Bards are not gear-oriented (one of the signs of an OP class). There are 3 major factors to a bard's survivability:

1) Displacement and possibly stoneskin.
2) Self-healing. Quicken turns a bard into a meat shield.
3) High saves. Self-applied gh, inspire greatness, rage, and haste help, along with Force of Personality (though my bard doesn't need it) and good con and/or dex scores.

They may have been originally designed to be 'hybrids', and I'm strongly considering LR'ing my bard to get back to my specialist dps roots, but there ARE bards out there who can get by as full-time casters.

You can play a warforged sorceror as a primarily melee/self-healer as well. It shouldn't factor into a conversation about whether sorcerors are viable at end game.

But warchanters are obviously better for a dps role then a spellsinger...

They have greater personal melee DPS potential, sure. That does not mean they will cause greater amounts of DPS in a group, however. Spellsingers provide higher DCs, higher spell point efficiency, and better spell penetration as well as, unfortunately, spell point regeneration. That all adds up to higher magic DPS and more haste, rage, and focusing chant. A spellsinger in the party may also free a cleric or favored soul up to contribute their melee DPS as well.

I have never even been tempted to go warchanter.

At the end of your post you stated that spellsingers were OP (over-powered, right?), because of fascinate DC's.

Not just because of fascinate, though fascinate is extremely powerful even with Dungeon Alert. Inspire courage is overpowered in regular quests, let alone raids. How many Shroud runs with a bard in the party kill Arraetrikos before the blade circles even start hitting any melee? How much quicker is a Hound run with a bard? Why will some insecure raid leaders actually sit and wait around for a bard before they start their raid?

Bard's have survivability, utility, and both the best buffs and highest powered crowd control in the game. That is why they were overpowered before spellsinger II came out. Now they are just stupidly overpowered.

[Emili]

It is not a question of landing spells, but rather it is a question of the effectiveness of the spells bards cast. As time has gone by bard spells have become increasingly less effective. Back when the cap was 14 the bard cc spells where very powerful in the gianthold,etc. Fast forward to update 8 and the bard spells were quite a bit less effective then and now post U9 with the spell changes and bard spells have become virtually obsolete in comparison to Wiz/sorc/fvs/cleric spells.

You are a traditionalist i.e. you do not tend to like to change characters even where they are less effective. Hangover, my old spellsinger healer/cc bard I will still run in raids but in 6 mans she is done until they fix the changes either that or I will throw an SOS on her and respec her. Sadly I am leaning toward putting her in hibernation until the devs change things. I think the devs investing into bards in order to make them more diverse is a worthy effort because the current bard is too one dimensional and stale.

Maybe and maybe not... I used to chase epitome years ago and admit I stopped, but the reasoning being running for the brass ring in scope of build only to run such again left little on the plate in terms of what I considered fun anymore.

Is no doubt that Wiz/sorc/fvs/cleric bury bards in casting prowess and bards are second string. The question poised me long ago was if I wished to play the flavour of the month constantly. When the flavour of the month however turns into joining the bandwagon sometimes it's just nice to play that second fiddle.

Had everyone embraced u9 we'd all be running nothing but arcane and divines and nearly nothing else - that's just how I see things at the moment. I however do not wish to be ruled by every bloody enhancement, PrE nor rule set turbine introduces. While bards are weak in scope at the moment they are still a viable alternative in play.

I rest assure however that the more imput people suggest within nature of what is really happening in game the pedulum will swing once again towards making alternatives interesting once again.

[theboatman]

I will provide a counter example, of why I like and still play my casting ss after u9. Epics.

One of the biggest stealth buffs in the spell pass was the reduction in the cost of cures. My efficiency went way up with my mass cures. There are no epics that I haven't healed as a bard, granted I may use some heal/recon scrolls where a divine would not. There are some epics that I am comfortable being the solo caster in the group. Now this also says a lot about the group, but being able to keep everyone raged/hasted/displaced, keep the group healed up with mass cures/scrolls, and toss out Hold Person/Otto's/Sphere for cc all in one slot is very nice, especially with the efficiency that a group with 5 dps can plow through.

[Aashrym]

I will provide a counter example, of why I like and still play my casting ss after u9. Epics.

One of the biggest stealth buffs in the spell pass was the reduction in the cost of cures. My efficiency went way up with my mass cures. There are no epics that I haven't healed as a bard, granted I may use some heal/recon scrolls where a divine would not. There are some epics that I am comfortable being the solo caster in the group. Now this also says a lot about the group, but being able to keep everyone raged/hasted/displaced, keep the group healed up with mass cures/scrolls, and toss out Hold Person/Otto's/Sphere for cc all in one slot is very nice, especially with the efficiency that a group with 5 dps can plow through.

That's how I was doing it before. 5 DPS slots was pretty nice with me filling crowd control and healing. Even then using a wizard with mass hold instead of the bard in a caster slot and a melee bard was the normal option.

Now tho a wizard still has better DC's and can spec enchant with better spells, and also take death spells. Shore up with some DoT's/direct damage as a fall back if needed because that's also cheaper now and mass hold for helpless adds another bonus to it. With the increased saving throws I find it hard to land stuns from greater shout where I can't use enchantments.

Adding a melee bard into a DPS (or healer) slot instead of a caster bard into the caster slot with one more DPS is much more effective in comparison. That melee bard and wizard can do much more for the group in 2 slots than Using those same 2 slots for a caster bard and a melee now compared to before the spell pass.

It's not that a party can't function with the caster bard and 5 melees still; it's the improved effectiveness of the other casters. Dropping the base durations, removing extend, increasing mob saves in epics, improving death spells / direct damage spells (which we don't have realistically) for endgame content all contributed to caster bard nerf.

Your benefits listed healing and buffing, which is still available on melee bards. The caster option is really just disco ball, hold monster, deep slumber, otto's IR, greater shout. Greater shout has less benefit with poor damage and a hit on the DC but at least it's cheaper even if less effective. Otto's IR is available to melees. Deep slumber is still a hit to break and can be covered by fascinate. Hold monster vs Mass Hold monster.

Disco ball is a great spell but it won't work everywhere and the mage can cast it.

Also, the cheaper healing isn't a benefit for caster bards. It's benefit for all classes with those spells, which also includes melee bards. With the cheaper costs on a lot of spells and introduction of more cheap SLA's we actually have another nerf to spellsingers instead because the 10% SP reduction reduces less SP spent for a smaller saving, and there is less need for the SP regen or the SP reduction for other casters than previously. The bonus SP are nice on a melee spellsinger tho

[Aashrym]

Bards are not gear-oriented (one of the signs of an OP class).

Bard hunt DPS gear and/or caster gear too. I'm not exactly following how caster bard is OP with no instant death spells and terrible direct damage spells, or how they don't grind gear. I don't need a caster bard for IC and haste, but that certainly doesn't over power them.

There are 3 major factors to a bard's survivability:

1) Displacement and possibly stoneskin.
2) Self-healing. Quicken turns a bard into a meat shield.
3) High saves. Self-applied gh, inspire greatness, rage, and haste help, along with Force of Personality (though my bard doesn't need it) and good con and/or dex scores.

What you have just described is a wizard with insightful reflexes instead of force of personality. Not only that, but those options are available to melee bards. And the wizard has a lot more offensive options.

Not just because of fascinate, though fascinate is extremely powerful even with Dungeon Alert. Inspire courage is overpowered in regular quests, let alone raids. How many Shroud runs with a bard in the party kill Arraetrikos before the blade circles even start hitting any melee? How much quicker is a Hound run with a bard? Why will some insecure raid leaders actually sit and wait around for a bard before they start their raid?

Bard's have survivability, utility, and both the best buffs and highest powered crowd control in the game. That is why they were overpowered before spellsinger II came out. Now they are just stupidly overpowered.

Inspire Courage provides damage relative to the number of people using it. Requiring 3 more players or more to make an ability effective is not overpowered. Compared the same number of wizards casting death spells to the number of players to make IC useful and it turns into a poor comparison for the bard and melees. At least until the wizards lose blue bar power, but the goal these days in game design seems to be focused on making the blue bars last longer.

Fascinate can be limited by creature type, still breaks on hit, and ends up being situational much of the time.

Bards do not have evasion on a low HD class, they do not have protection from death effects or energy type in their abilities or spells, they do not have damage reduction in the spell list (the warchanter ability is some reduction at least). They tend to be one the squishiest classes.

I've played a lot of bards and I do find spellsingers can be strong CC on trash in some quests. They suck against bosses and immunities still hit their CC abilities. I would hardly call them overpowered.

[IAmNotAWaffle]

Bard's have survivability, utility, and both the best buffs and highest powered crowd control in the game. That is why they were overpowered before spellsinger II came out. Now they are just stupidly overpowered.

Maybe I've not spent enough time leveling toons and too much time at the cap with my ranger, where it seems like alot of players are basically telling you, "If you can't max dps, you can't heal best, you can't cast best, then you're gimp!" I don't really mean for that to come across in an offensive way, but simply that all-around builds (i.e. battleclerics) are typically frowned upon in the end-game community.

I think I might've went into the bard class with a too single-focused idea of how to play my bard, thanks for giving me some more stuff to consider. ^_^

[IAmNotAWaffle]

Bards do not have evasion on a low HD class, they do not have protection from death effects or energy type in their abilities or spells, they do not have damage reduction in the spell list (the warchanter ability is some reduction at least). They tend to be one the squishiest classes.

My bard not having evasion is a huge change from playing high-reflex, evasion classes, and it makes me feel more uncomfortable on the front line because I don't have the hp of a fighter either. I really need to bump up my hp. But as for the other points you mentioned here, we can umd resist energy, protection from elementals, fire shield, and stoneskin...As for protection from death effects, there's always deathblock from items. (Although maybe you could buy scrolls for deathblock in large amounts from vendors, but strangely, I've not looked into this myself so I'm not sure if they sell them...)

[moops]

Spellsingers can have awesome enchantment DCs that work in Epics--and still melee. I have a friend who does EPIC EDA as the only CC person on his spellsinger, often times we wont even have one caster in the group. Since he's a spellsinger he can keep his SP full. And guess what? He can swing a weapon and kill stuff too! A good amount of stuff. I use EDA as my barameter, If one can land CC and keep it going in EDA, they can do it anywhere that it is not warded.

My Bard, is a spellsinger as well, but I am STR based with 2 lvls of fighter and with lower CHR--spellsinger is just too nice for the content that we run. I have also been able to solo heal raids on this bard since I can give myself sp songs. I play wonky hours, and its nice to have options.

[Drallac]

I've got a drow 20 SS and love it, bit squishy but am now actually considering a TR to make it either half-elf or human, if i go Half elf id probably take pally dilettante for a bonus to saves, and if human its an extra feat, but the helf seems more attractive in terms of feats/enhancments.
A loss of 1 cha at end game wouldnt affect dc much because of past life/feats etc. I actually just respecced my drow and dropped cha slightly to boost hp, and have lost 1dc but still make 40 with ease

[Shmuel]

I have no trouble using my spellsinger in any content, even after the update. I always find playing bard to be about being flexible. You are best at nothing, but ok at a lot of things. Just figure out what your party is lacking in for the quest and fill in to balance things out. Yes, there are no meaningful offensive spells, and no cc other than ottos that i use regularly (other than fascinate in ev6), but I still manage to have fun. Get a couple of epic elyd edges or epic dynastic falcatas (ideally both) and melee as well, even with low str.

[Geonis]

The biggest change I have noticed after the update, is that a "caster" SS Bard is no longer just buffer/CC.

You now have to add in debuffer.

If you are debuffing and CC'ing, you are doing it right.

[Drallac]

I have no trouble using my spellsinger in any content, even after the update. I always find playing bard to be about being flexible. You are best at nothing, but ok at a lot of things. Just figure out what your party is lacking in for the quest and fill in to balance things out. Yes, there are no meaningful offensive spells, and no cc other than ottos that i use regularly (other than fascinate in ev6), but I still manage to have fun. Get a couple of epic elyd edges or epic dynastic falcatas (ideally both) and melee as well, even with low str.

Agreed, jack of all trades master of none, bards are perfect for "cant find a second healer" or "cant find a CC" and like you say falcatas/edges are amazing for spellsingers/high cha characters, im gonna duel wield em and perhaps will take out a toughness for improved crit pierce but havent decided yet

The biggest change I have noticed after the update, is that a "caster" SS Bard is no longer just buffer/CC.

You now have to add in debuffer.

If you are debuffing and CC'ing, you are doing it right.

absolutely, tbh I've reworked my spells, want to try daze monster on epic see if it works in anyway, from low level stuff it seems pretty decent, and having a short stun/lower will saves can be life or death at times.

One thing i have done is dropped empower healing, it makes heal spells too much and kinda overheals alot, quicken and scrolls is alot more manageable.