Should Warforged be Prevented from Becoming Pale Masters?

**AZgreentea** · 06-01-2011, 01:25 PM

I was reading "The Grand History of Eberron" and I came across this passage in the race section (Warforged, page 432):

The Treaty of Thronehold gave warforged their freedom, but only after great debate. House Cannith and Thrane argued ardently that warforged were not living creatures because they do not possess souls. Their evidence for this was that warforged cannot become undead by any known method, not even ghosts or wraiths. They are immune to energy drain, and no one knows of a warforged soul in Dolurrh, the Realm of the Dead. Breland argued that because warforged can be raised from the dead, they must have souls. Of course, House Cannith and Thrane countered that no warforged brought back from death told tales of any kind of afterlife. In the end, the Question of Souls, as that portion of the negotiations came to be known, was left unanswered.

The editor was using source material and novels, though it appears to have been sourced from 2006. Things could have changed since then. Does anyone know if there is a lore appropriate reason to ALLOW WF to take the undead forms available to PM's?

**Yaga_Nub** · 06-01-2011, 01:28 PM

WF should not be allowed to become PMs.

EOL.

**dkyle** · 06-01-2011, 01:30 PM

Pale Masters don't become undead. They take on undead traits.

And in any event, consistent and coherent game design should trump lore minutiae anyway. Silly race/class restrictions don't belong in DDO. WF Pale Master is already fairly sub-optimal.

**Gkar** · 06-01-2011, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by Yaga_Nub

WF should not be allowed to become PMs.

EOL.

Agreed. People raised that when PM came out.

**Dawnsfire** · 06-01-2011, 01:37 PM

Honestly I think there should be PREs that are race restricted. Pale Masters probably shouldn't be warforged but until they roll out other PREs that are (Dwarven Defender or Warforged Juggernaut) people will rightly complain that warforged characters are be unfairly excluded. It is a curse of the development cycle I suppose.

**Cyr** · 06-01-2011, 01:46 PM

Nope, limiting game options based upon flavor is a bad idea.

**varusso** · 06-01-2011, 01:47 PM

A paladin is a beacon of the light, requiring lawful-good, and was restricted to human and elf only in classic DnD (later Dwarf added IIRC).
Drow are evil by definition, yet somehow we have non-evil drow running around as paladins.
We have HALFLING paladins for crying out loud.
And paladins were not 'allowed' to group with thieves/rogues unless the thief/rogue was HONESTLY and LEGITIMATELY trying to reform.

Most of the race/class restrictions have been removed across the board in DnD and in DDO. There is no real reason to add them back in.

Oh yeah, and DDO =/= DnD.

**Zachski** · 06-01-2011, 01:58 PM

Drow are not inherently evil in Eberron.

**fuzzy1guy** · 06-01-2011, 02:14 PM

WF should not be allowed as pale masters.

WF should not be allowed as sorcerers.

it's not cannon or logical.
(which also fixes the #1 complaint about tough self healing casters soloing everything with repair/undead healing)

But i'm not the house gm. Gm makes the rules. (even if they're silly)

**dkyle** · 06-01-2011, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by fuzzy1guy

WF should not be allowed as pale masters.

WF should not be allowed as sorcerers.

it's not cannon or logical.
(which also fixes the #1 complaint about tough self healing casters soloing everything with repair/undead healing)

But i'm not the house gm. Gm makes the rules. (even if they're silly)

Yep those are indeed examples of silly rules

I'm not aware of any rule precluding WF Sorcs in PnP DnD.

**Krago** · 06-01-2011, 02:18 PM

Halflings able to dual wield oversized weapons but yet get +1AC for size bonus.

**fuzzy1guy** · 06-01-2011, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by dkyle

Yep those are indeed examples of silly rules

I'm not aware of any rule precluding WF Sorcs in PnP DnD.

It's kinda included in the whole 'bloodline of power' inate ability thing. No blood. No power.

As sorcerers inate magical ability comes from (supposedly) having a dragon relative far back in history. It does not quite fit that it can apply to a wf. wf don't breed.

**Gkar** · 06-01-2011, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by varusso

A paladin is a beacon of the light, requiring lawful-good, and was restricted to human and elf only in classic DnD (later Dwarf added IIRC).
Drow are evil by definition, yet somehow we have non-evil drow running around as paladins.
We have HALFLING paladins for crying out loud.
And paladins were not 'allowed' to group with thieves/rogues unless the thief/rogue was HONESTLY and LEGITIMATELY trying to reform.

Most of the race/class restrictions have been removed across the board in DnD and in DDO. There is no real reason to add them back in.

Oh yeah, and DDO =/= DnD.

This game is based on 3.5 Eberron setting D&D. None of the suff you list above is true of the Eberron 3.5 setting.

**Gkar** · 06-01-2011, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by fuzzy1guy

It's kinda included in the whole 'bloodline of power' inate ability thing. No blood. No power.

As sorcerers inate magical ability comes from (supposedly) having a dragon relative far back in history. It does not quite fit that it can apply to a wf. wf don't breed.

No, that's only one flavor option for 3.x. In the PH it says something like "some people claim that....". There is no core 3.x rule saying its in the blood.

**varusso** · 06-01-2011, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by Gkar

This game is based on 3.5 Eberron setting D&D. None of the suff you list above is true of the Eberron 3.5 setting.

I am aware of that. Read the last 2 lines you quoted.

**mws2970** · 06-01-2011, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by fuzzy1guy

TURBINE makes the rules. (even if they're silly)

Fixed that for ya! :P

**RudeIota** · 06-01-2011, 02:33 PM

While we're at it, Good aligned characters shouldn't be Pale Masters either...

**mindlessdrone1991** · 06-01-2011, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by AZgreentea

I was reading "The Grand History of Eberron" and I came across this passage in the race section (Warforged, page 432):

The editor was using source material and novels, though it appears to have been sourced from 2006. Things could have changed since then. Does anyone know if there is a lore appropriate reason to ALLOW WF to take the undead forms available to PM's?

From DDOwiki.com
http://ddowiki.com/page/Pale_Master_enhancements

Pale master I:
"You are a devoted student of the necromantic arts."

Zombie form:
"You shroud yourself with negative energy and assume many traits of a zombie." (emphasis mine)

It doesn't say you become undead; you assume many of their traits. There is no reason NOT to let warforged be Pale Masters, and arbitrarily implementing limits on options within the game based on a highly debatable interpretation of DnD cannon is silly.

**Bodic** · 06-01-2011, 02:38 PM

I do believe the first Sorc you meet is a WF,
and Undead traits is not UNDEAD.

DDO lore is not PnP DnD lore.

**dkyle** · 06-01-2011, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by RudeIota

While we're at it, Good aligned characters shouldn't be Pale Masters either...

I've never really got the whole "OMG Undead are super evil" thing.

Yeah, it's not exactly "good" to desecrete a body without consent of the deceased, but in the grand scheme of things, misusing a body that the soul has already left is more immoral than outright evil.

And especially with Pale Masters who are merely manipulating their own body to emulate undead traits, and not actually animating dead.

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