Why Don't I Want Cleave?

[Mynuvis]

Greetings all,

Been playing for a couple days now and love it!!!! Decided to go for a pally and have been scouring the forums trying to understand the various builds.

Finally settled on http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...3&postcount=19 but one question I have is that all builds I see have Power Attack, but none ever take Cleave? Why is that? What makes taking Skill Focus: UMD at level 18 a better/wiser choice than picking up Cleave at some point? I saw on DDOWiki that Cleave was changed in Update 9, does that make it viable?

Thanks for all the wisdom and replies

[MrLarone]

afaik - the cleave animation actually slows you down (i.e. less hits in the same time) also with glancing blows (full thf line) you can alraedy dish the hurt to all those around you, including behind as well.

[le_goat]

I put cleave on my monk now, its fun for killing trash mobs.

[Jevern]

That's because on most builds, there isn't any space to take cleave. I took cleave on my fighter, but it was mostly a fun thing, and a fighter has a lot of feats to waste anyway.

With a pure paladin, you've got 7 feat slots. If you're going with a THF paladin, the 7 feats will usually be toughness, THF, ITHF, GTHF, Improved Critical: whatever, PA, and one more of your choice depending on the focus of the build. Cleave could be slotted there, but most people think it's a suboptimal use of a feat. More of a flavour thing, really.

[FuzzyDuck81]

The animation used to slow you down quite a lot.. now that issues been fixed though so cleave is actually a pretty tasty feat if you have the space for it, which is more likely to be fighters & monks than paladins & rangers.

[TheDjinnFor]

Cleave is a bit faster now it seems, but its still fairly situational; its probably not worth using on any pack of mobs that's less than 3 monsters large.

Other common DPS feats, like PA, the THF/TWF chains, and Improved Critical, are more useful in general.

[Shade]

Cleave generally still slows you down - not by much, but enough to make it not worth a feat.. Tho it's uneffected by attack speed modifiers, so it can be faster at low lvls, or without haste. And it highly depends on the race you chose and what wepaon you use for exactly how quick/slow it may be.

As such I generally wouldn't recommend it to to anyone except barbarians, who must take it for the pre. And even on a barb, I would never use the feat - but the improved pre version of supreme cleave is actually worth using now - but paladins cannot get that.

The biggest differnce in those is the cooldown, cleave is 5 seconds - while supreme cleave has none, so you can't really spam it.. just a small situation boost to dps - if you fighting 2-3+ monsters, and if your using a weapon strong enough to be worth it.. Too situational for a pally.

I think they should add more to it to make it worthwhile. Perhaps some extra glancing blow dmg %, or proc chance %, and it could be worth it, even to paladins.

[somenewnoob]

That's because on most builds, there isn't any space to take cleave. I took cleave on my fighter, but it was mostly a fun thing, and a fighter has a lot of feats to waste anyway.

With a pure paladin, you've got 7 feat slots. If you're going with a THF paladin, the 7 feats will usually be toughness, THF, ITHF, GTHF, Improved Critical: whatever, PA, and one more of your choice depending on the focus of the build. Cleave could be slotted there, but most people think it's a suboptimal use of a feat. More of a flavour thing, really.

This. On my human fighter I have it and great cleave, but most classes don't have all those feats fighters get and they are better spent elsewhere.

[redspecter23]

I like cleave on monks, specifically light monks as you can use it as a prerequisite for Shintao. On live right now, cleave (and other combat moves like trip and stunning fist) while unarmed seem to be allowing offhand proc in addition to normal hits. Also the whirlwind kick type animation is just too cool to not do on a monk. Since you're talking about paladin, I'd probably skip cleave. You're likely to get more dps out of extend on a paladin, especially if you're planning on using something like Madstone Boots.

[AcesWylde]

Cleave generally still slows you down - not by much, but enough to make it not worth a feat.. Tho it's uneffected by attack speed modifiers, so it can be faster at low lvls, or without haste. And it highly depends on the race you chose and what wepaon you use for exactly how quick/slow it may be.

As such I generally wouldn't recommend it to to anyone except barbarians, who must take it for the pre. And even on a barb, I would never use the feat - but the improved pre version of supreme cleave is actually worth using now - but paladins cannot get that.

The biggest differnce in those is the cooldown, cleave is 5 seconds - while supreme cleave has none, so you can't really spam it.. just a small situation boost to dps - if you fighting 2-3+ monsters, and if your using a weapon strong enough to be worth it.. Too situational for a pally.

I think they should add more to it to make it worthwhile. Perhaps some extra glancing blow dmg %, or proc chance %, and it could be worth it, even to paladins.

I use Cleave and Great Cleave on my Horc Staff Master and it works great for clearing trash, they are on separate timers, so you can just keep cycling through until everything is dead. I don't think I'd take just Cleave though, if you have enough room for both great, if not take toughness instead, lol.

[ArloOne]

I agree with most of what has been said. I would also like to point out. When you are using a weapon with a neat effect i.e. paralyzer,disruptor,smiter etc. It is pretty cool to cleave and nail a bunch of mobs at one time.

In general, it is a feat that is primarily taken as a pre requisite for barbarians.

[Shade]

I use Cleave and Great Cleave on my Horc Staff Master and it works great for clearing trash, they are on separate timers, so you can just keep cycling through until everything is dead. I don't think I'd take just Cleave though, if you have enough room for both great, if not take toughness instead, lol.

not exactly, being they are both 5 seconds cooldowns.

So unless your content witht having 2 attacks every 5 seconds (heh) thats not very effective. You can ofcourse do some regular attacks in between, but its a lot of button mashing.

And if your staff master is a fighter, sure why not. If hes a paladin? uhhhh.

[Jinpo]

I agree with most of what has been said. I would also like to point out. When you are using a weapon with a neat effect i.e. paralyzer,disruptor,smiter etc. It is pretty cool to cleave and nail a bunch of mobs at one time.

In general, it is a feat that is primarily taken as a pre requisite for barbarians.

This is especially fun on my Barb with his paralyzer. Run around vale, grab as many mobs as possible, and cleave/paralyze them all six feet under.

[Mynuvis]

Thanks guys, that makes more sense now.

I'm sure I'll understand more of the "why's" as I play through various toons, just trying not to gimp too many too fast LOL.

[AcesWylde]

not exactly, being they are both 5 seconds cooldowns.

So unless your content witht having 2 attacks every 5 seconds (heh) thats not very effective. You can ofcourse do some regular attacks in between, but its a lot of button mashing.

I have Cleave and Great Cleave mapped to my side mouse keys, so it's pretty easy. Cleave, Great Cleave, attack, attack, rinse and repeat. That may only give you 3-4 attacks in five seconds, but against multiple mobs it'll give you more hits in the same time frame than you would get with regular attacks. Against less mobs it's not worth bothering with though.

And if your staff master is a fighter, sure why not. If hes a paladin? uhhhh.

going for ftr6/mnk1/rog13 (thief acrobat/staff kensi)

[solacerodgers]

I was considering cleave on my monk but as you do not get to add in ki strikes of void strikes I left it out and staed with precision for my light monk build.

[Postumus]

afaik - the cleave animation actually slows you down (i.e. less hits in the same time) also with glancing blows (full thf line) you can alraedy dish the hurt to all those around you, including behind as well.

That doesn't sound right at all. It certainly doesn't jive with what I'm seeing in game. Cleave is now awesome.

Run into middle of mobs, hit cleave, greater cleave, and supreme cleave and everything drops dead. Three hot buttons = all dead.

[Morosy]

That doesn't sound right at all. It certainly doesn't jive with what I'm seeing in game. Cleave is now awesome.

Run into middle of mobs, hit cleave, greater cleave, and supreme cleave and everything drops dead. Three hot buttons = all dead.

Eh, just stick with supreme/supreme/supreme. Since they would all share the universal 1 second or so cooldown anyway, you would be able to do that in the same amount of time as your cleave/greater/supreme, while also being better as supreme is the better of the 3. Which also solves the problem of getting rid of that greater cleave for you on your barbarian :P