No-Tome Two Weapon Fighter (32pt)

[Macrovox]

Feedback Requested

This is a bit of a niche build. It’s meant to be the first 32 point character of a non-VIP player who would like maximized duel-wield dps without the use of tomes or purchasable class/race.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.7.2
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 True Neutral Human Female
(12 Fighter \ 2 Rogue \ 6 Ranger) 
Hit Points: 322
Spell Points: 25 
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 14
Will: 5

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             18                    26
Dexterity            14                    14
Constitution         16                    16
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma              8                     8

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               4                    11
Bluff                -1                     1
Concentration         3                     7
Diplomacy            -1                     1
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle                1                     3
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  2                     2
Intimidate            1                     5
Jump                  8                    26
Listen               -1                    -1
Move Silently         2                     2
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                    -1
Search               -1                    -1
Spot                 -1                    -1
Swim                  4                     9
Tumble                4                     6
Use Magic Device      1                    25

Level 1 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Goblinoid
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Human Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Bow Strength
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Feat: (Automatic) Wild Empathy


Level 2 (Ranger)
Feat: (Automatic) Rapid Shot
Feat: (Automatic) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow
Feat: (Automatic) Diehard


Level 4 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: STR
Spell (1): Camouflage
Spell (1): Jump
Spell (1): Longstrider
Spell (1): Merfolk's Blessing
Spell (1): Ram's Might
Spell (1): Resist Energy
Spell (1): Summon Nature's Ally I
Spell (1): Tumble


Level 5 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead


Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Manyshot


Level 7 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Tower Shield Proficiency


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Mobility
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Quick Draw


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Great Cleave


Level 17 (Fighter)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device


Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion

Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Kensei Khopesh Mastery I
Enhancement: Kensei Khopesh Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II
Enhancement: Fighter Khopesh Specialization I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II

Skills in order of importance: UMD, Jump, Balance, Tumble, your taste.

Reservations: I am a little concerned that much of the dps enhancements may not be available until higher levels, but the one hard requirement is TWF which is Dex independent for Rangers. I am open to thoughts and suggestions.

It’s also expected that the first favored enemy would be feat-swapped with Lockania/Fred to something more useful than Goblinoid midlevel. I’m thinking the build would get more use out of Giant or Evil Outsider later on. This also is to taste.

Build will be tested on Cannith

[FlyingTurtle]

Don't throw away GTWF. I'd try Dex-->16... can take the points from Strength. Also, don't max Jump. Jump is capped at 40, and you can cast a +20 Jump.

EDIT: Just noticed your Rogue levels are at Clevel 19 and 20. Big no-no. Always take the class with the most skillpoints at first level.

[jillie]

Set Dex = 15 at initial build, and get a +2 dex tome. That'll give you the 17 for GTWF. You can buy one ingame for platinum (about 175K on Argo), or from the DDO for 595 TP (can be a single min cost purchase when there's a point sale on, such as now, also giving the premium benefit).

I concur about taking a rogue level first, before anything else, as that will help to max out skills.

[Kourier]

Set Dex = 15 at initial build, and get a +2 dex tome. That'll give you the 17 for GTWF. You can buy one ingame for platinum (about 175K on Argo), or from the DDO for 595 TP (can be a single min cost purchase when there's a point sale on, such as now, also giving the premium benefit).

I concur about taking a rogue level first, before anything else, as that will help to max out skills.

He says no tomes apparently. The best thing to do then is to start with dex 16 and take one level up in dex. GTWF is not really an option if you want to be "maximized dps."

Always take the rogue level first for skill points (max out UMd especially) and take the 2nd whenever you think evasion would be nice or you need the skill points.

[Monkey_Archer]

-Take rouge at level 1 for extra skill points

-Start with 16 dex, 14 con, and acquire a +1 dex tome for GTWF (i know you said no tomes, but by the time you need this you will easily have enough plat to buy one... they're cheap)

-Drop cleave and great cleave for GTWF and an extra toughness to make up for the lower con (or some other more useful feat)

[Dirichlet]

I'd be very tempted to take the Rogue levels earlier. First, this means you can take Rogue Haste Boost I early on until you have the Fighter levels. Second, with early Rogue and Ranger levels (and with that starting Dex) your Reflex will be pretty high for the first two thirds of the game, making Evasion desirable then (it'll be much less desirable the higher you get). Third, you're getting Ranger spells three levels before you are going to be able to cast them (+3 Wis item is ML:7, unless you want to rely on House P buffs and clickies just to cast spells, which let me tell you from experience on my spellsword gimp is more than annoying).

You don't necessarily have to take Rogue at level 1 though (I'd have to play with a calculator to see what's best for this build). Rogue at level 1 gives you more skill points if you actually have lots of different skills you want to put points in to. If you just want to bump up one or two skills (e.g. UMD) to maximum then it can be better taking Rogue later. For that first level you get 4 points in UMD, Jump, Balance, Tumble, maybe Open Lock, and... Swim? Haggle? Repair? You can't put 8 ranks in UMD at level 1; you can at a later level.

But yeah, are you really sure you want to give up GTWF? That's the killer, I think. For a proper no-tomes melee I'd go either THF or Tempest II.

[Macrovox]

I'd be very tempted to take the Rogue levels earlier. First, this means you can take Rogue Haste Boost I early on until you have the Fighter levels. Second, with early Rogue and Ranger levels (and with that starting Dex) your Reflex will be pretty high for the first two thirds of the game, making Evasion desirable then (it'll be much less desirable the higher you get). Third, you're getting Ranger spells three levels before you are going to be able to cast them (+3 Wis item is ML:7, unless you want to rely on House P buffs and clickies just to cast spells, which let me tell you from experience on my spellsword gimp is more than annoying).

Good points - thank you.

1. Rogue haste boost; do you think this is worth putting off Tempest? or Kensei? The haste boost is nice but not that nice I don't think.

2. You're right about the reflex/evasion issue. But again, evasion was really an afterthought.

3. With 6 levels of ranger we're only talking about level 1 spells, Ram's Might will be nice. Resists are okay I guess. But having to wait until level 7 to cast them is really no big deal.


Also - I obviously agree with you completely regarding the skill points. I think our posts crossed each other in the posting.

[Alex301]

if you're not going to take GTWF i really would go thf or take 12 ranger levels. Drop your con to 14 and increase your dex to 16 and grab a +1 tome, or put a level up into dex if you really don't want to use tomes, but i wouldn't do a twf build without gtwf.

Not taking rogue as your first level isn't a big deal and wont gimp your toon, you just net less points by not doing it. Unless you need more points in several skills, there's little reason not to though.

[Macrovox]

Thanks for the feedback, but please read the post before submitting your reply.

1 – Not taking rogue at first level is a ‘big no-no’:
Why, because that’s what you’ve seen posted in the past? Okay let’s have a look. The only skill points that matter (again read the post) are UMD, Jump, Balance, 1 tumble, others to taste (meaning of course that I have more skill points than I find useful). But let’s say I take rogue first as opposed to ranger;

In either case at level 1 I have enough skill points to get max(4) UMD, Jump, & Balance; and have enough left over for Tumble and haggle, and other’s I don’t care about. But with rogue UMD and Balance are class skills. So at first level I would have 2 more UMD and 2 more Balance with rogue over ranger. However if I take my first Rogue level at 19 I’m able to put all 8 points into UMD (net gain of 4 UMD). Taking 2nd rogue at level 2 vs. level 20 is a wash.
Bottom line; as posted my UMD is 5 points higher and my balance is 2 points lower, plus I get to Tempest and Kensei sooner rather than later, by waiting to take my rogue levels. Doesn’t sound like a big no-no to me.
It may also be worth mentioning that the only reason I’m taking 2 levels of rogue is because 12 and 6 are sweet spots for fighter and ranger respectively. So as an afterthought I decided to throw in evasion. I simply can’t see moving the afterthought to first in level progression.

2 – No tome build (nothing follows).

3 – Greater Two Weapon Fighting:
This is a very good point I admit. To fit the bill of the post the only real way to make GTWF work is to switch starting Dex and Con (Str 18; Dex 16; Con 14) and blow one of my level ups on Dex instead of Str. This would leave me with an ending strength of 25. There are some unused action points that could be spent on another fighter’s strength and obviously there are enough feats to fit in greater two weapon fighting. I believe the speed boost from GTWF has been nerfed, but I still think it may be worth the effort, even with the reduced constitution. I’ll need to think this one over.

[Alex301]

GTWF increases your off hand proc chance by 20%, for a total of 80%. GTWF is definitely worth getting, even at the cost of 20 hp and some ap. Tempest 1 use to give a 10% alacrity bonus but this has since been nerfed/replaced by an additional 10% off hand proc chance instead.

I would also put some points into OL. Even with a few points you can get most locks.

6 ranger levels will actually give you 2 spells and you should have great reflex saves. I have a half orc version of the build with 30 standing reflex saves without much effort.

[Rdonaccount]

Fighter also gets haste boost, but unless they've changed it since i've tested it more than a year ago, they share the same use counter, so no point having both.

The reason there is so much fighting against the "no tomes" thing is because it is utterly ridiculous considering how cheap tomes are. +1s are dirt cheap by the time you hit tempest spine, and you'll be able to afford a +2 with 1 decent pull in a mid level quest/explorer area (a muckdoom netted my first +2 int tome on my wizard, got it at level 10). It just doesn't make sense to build without tomes at all unless you are just trying to be stubborn, but if that's the case, why not just stick with 28 point builds?

If you are still insisting on no tomes, and don't want to commit more than 6 points to dex, your best bet for max dps would be 12rng/7rog/1ftr. Tempest II + (5d6 + 9) sneak attack will outweigh kensei II benefits against anything short of 100% fort, and you can hedge against those by taking them as FE's. And you can start with your dex lower and still get gtwf automatically at 11.

[fluffybunnywilson]

You are guaranteed a +2 tome of your choice at 1750 favor.

You get a free feat respec at any time in your character's life.

Agents of Argonessen grants a free feat respec at their first tier of favor (Flawless Siberys Dragonshard).

Start with 15 Dex.
Ignore GTWF.
Get your +2 Dex tome at 1750 favor.
Use a feat respec to get GTWF if you are already level 20 or just take GTWF as your level 18 feat or take it any time with your next Fighter level.

17 points of Dex are really expensive to acquire.
GTWF is really good.

[Macrovox]

Thanks for the feedback.

Plus rep Fluffy (even though you still suggested that I could use a tome - this is a reasonable option). The intended user is a casual player and I did not want to sign her up to a farming build. Your point I think is if you come accross one use it, otherwise drive on. Perfect.

[Macrovox]

Fighter also gets haste boost, but unless they've changed it since i've tested it more than a year ago, they share the same use counter, so no point having both.

Correct - I assumed the suggestion was to use rogue boost until it could be replaced with fighter, but it's moot since rogue levels will not be taken before fighter levels.

The reason there is so much fighting against the "no tomes" thing is because it is utterly ridiculous considering how cheap tomes are. +1s are dirt cheap by the time you hit tempest spine, and you'll be able to afford a +2 with 1 decent pull in a mid level quest/explorer area (a muckdoom netted my first +2 int tome on my wizard, got it at level 10). It just doesn't make sense to build without tomes at all unless you are just trying to be stubborn, but if that's the case, why not just stick with 28 point builds?

How would farming a +2 int tome help this build? The point is even though a Dex tome could drop, or I could farm favor, or buy points. I didn't want to have to rely on any of these options. So I have to ask, why insist that I need a tome? Are you just trying to be stubborn?

If you are still insisting on no tomes, and don't want to commit more than 6 points to dex, your best bet for max dps would be 12rng/7rog/1ftr. Tempest II + (5d6 + 9) sneak attack will outweigh kensei II benefits against anything short of 100% fort, and you can hedge against those by taking them as FE's. And you can start with your dex lower and still get gtwf automatically at 11.

Great point – thank you! Greater Two Weapon Fighting is an 11th level ranger auto feat.

[fluffybunnywilson]

The point is even though a Dex tome could drop, or I could farm favor, or buy points. I didn't want to have to rely on any of these options. So I have to ask, why insist that I need a tome? Are you just trying to be stubborn?

You don't need a +Str item or a Greensteel weapon or a + 6 Con/Greater False Life item on your character either. But they're all really useful and they're all pretty easy to get. Just like a +2 tome is.

If you don't want to count on a tome and you still want to make this character, then at least leave room for GTWF so that you can take it if a +1 Dex tome does happen to fall into your lap.

Great point – thank you! Greater Two Weapon Fighting is an 11th level ranger auto feat.

If you do go the Ranger route, then you won't need Dex for anything except for Reflex saves. Evasion makes a good Reflex save much more worthwhile than it is on a non-evasion character, but it still wouldn't make sense to me to go with more than a 14 Dex in that case. Of course, I'd also suggest an 8 Wisdom if you go the Ranger route since it's so easy to get Wisdom boosts for the times when you want to cast spells.

I think it's kind of funny, but I actually do think that a Ftr 20 should start with a 9 Wisdom while a Ranger or Paladin should start with a 6 or 8 Wisdom. DDO is an odd duck.

[Dirichlet]

I assumed the suggestion was to use rogue boost until it could be replaced with fighter

Yeah that's what I meant; simply respec once the fighter haste is available.

If you wanted a Tempest II version that's close to this, I'd go 12 Ranger / 7 Fighter / 1 Rogue. 7 Fighter might look fishy, but it opens up a few good enhancements (Haste III, Stunning Blow III, maybe Toughness III), whereas Rogue 2 is moot given that Ranger 9 already has Evasion. Taking SB III your DC will be the same as you had in the original even with only Kensei I.

[JollySwagMan]

A question about the niche you have in mind: what level of financing/twink gear would be available to the character? My assumption is that the casual player this is built for might not have a collection of good khopeshes banked, or have the finances to purchase them. The new crafting system could be useful here, but would be a bit grindy to make level appropriate weaponry.

The Khopesh feat might be moved up some levels to where the player may have a better chance of making good use of it - perhaps around level 12, when TRs are equipping their greensteel weapons and might hoard less of the good randomly generated ones

On a Human, might consider moving 2 points from Con into Dex for 15 of each, Humans can take a Con enhancement and open up Racial Toughness III, and allowing for GTWF should a +2 Dex tome happen to come along . Alternately, 14 Con and 16 Dex could allow a levelup into Dex, using a 4th Str enhancement to even it out.

Have you considered using the Dwarf race? 18 Str 16 Dex 16 Con, and Dwarven Axes instead of Khopeshes can be pretty viable, however it would be -1 UMD compared to an 8 Cha human, or -4 if considering Human Versatality 4 vs Rogue skill boost 1). Dwarven Axe enhancements could help with the concern over delay in attack enhancements. Dwarven tactics enhancements can help maintain a reliable stun, and Con enhancements also allow access to Racial Toughness III and IV.

Also might consider the Halfling race? 16 Str, 16 Dex, 16 Con, with enhancements to Sneak Attacks, saves, allies, and extra satisfaction when Tripping an enemy . But not enough room for Dragonmarks/metas, which is a shame.

Alternately, if willing to consider THF and more skills, Dex could be swapped for Int, with spare feat slots for Insightful Reflexes, and Combat Expertise (for) Improved Trip. The short cooldown on Improved Trip and the wide range of enemies it's effective against make it very useful for untwinked builds; while it shines in more tactical play, it's easy enough to spam in a full keyboard-headbutt-PUG. However this is more of a tangent, and a switch from Dex to Int would perhaps imply switching the Ranger levels out as well.

On the other hand, Tempest II has been mentioned by others, definitely a good no-tome option.

[zex95966]

take the rogue levels in whatever order...

you can get umd sooner than if you take them at first level.
most people who take rogue levels at first level are going for traps... your not. Well traps and evasion, but if UMD is your primary goal, you can play with the planner a lil bit taking whatever skill (I'd recommend intimidate) for a bit, then at around lvl 8 or so, take rogue, put one point in open lock and the rest in UMD.

then do the same thing, level for a bit... mebbe around 12 or so, then take rogue again, dump into UMD. if you take rogue early, including level 1, you end up spending points elsewhere instead of UMD, since it can only go so high.

once you do it the second time though, you'll want to put into umd from then on.

[Alex301]

Personally i would change your feat order. TWF in the lower levels isn't very good. I switch to duel khopeshes at level 12, i.e. when i get GTWF, and use a falchion until then. THF will do more damage before this point and you will also have a higher to hit. Therefore you can pick up khopesh proficiency until and leave the ranger for a few levels. I find the fighter levels and enhancements to be much more useful at the start. I also like to grab PA before level 4, but that's just me, and dodge as AC is actually useful in the lower level quests.

One good thing about spring attack is that you can twitch without worrying about the loss to your attack bonus; I try to pick it up sooner. This will put you on par with other thf without taking any of the feats and since your moving around a lot you can evade a lot of damage.

You can leave stunning blow until much later as things will die too quickly to justify picking it up in place of another feat early on. For your favoured enemies, i'd swap out goblinoid for giant as there giants throughout the game and will serve better in the mid-high levels.

[Macrovox]

I’m rep-ing up as many of you as the forums will allow.


Jolly: Good options thanks. I originally looked at Halfling but tossed it for the hit to strength. I could also see Dwarf but their axes have bad crit profiles if I remember right. Still, it’s worth consideration, thanks.


Alex: I agree that if we decide to go with Tempest II the second rouge level would only give me some skill points at the cost of 4 hit points and the three Fighter enhancements you mentioned (I think BAB would be +1 either way and no changes to feats). I also agree about the feat progression, but the number one user requirement was to get to TWF as quickly as possible.

I’ll have to see what the feat cost is for losing 5 levels of fighter, but 12 Ranger / 7 Fighter / 1 Rogue looks like a promising option.


All: I understand and agree that GTWF is not something to throw away lightly. I somehow forgot about it when I put this build together. But, if I were to design a character that would plan to make the 17 dex requirement it would probably be 12 Fighter / 6 Barbarian / 2 rogue (with levels taken in that order). With haste boost fighters are very easy to level and the character would only get better from there. In other words, the only reason I’m considering ranger is for the free TWF feats. I just failed to realize that I needed 11 levels to get there.