Rogue HP question

[Ecoski]

Hi there folks, a comment from a fellow player sparked my curiosity today and I was wondering if anyone would be able to give me an answer/general opinion?

:Backstory:
I was messing about on a new little Helf rogue I'd made today, enjoying the fact that I could out-dps barbarians whilst using a greataxe (TWF doesn't seem worth it until I get Improved or Greater TWF). I notice a group for Chronoscope, claiming to be running it "At level", and so I apply. I get declined immediately, and when asking why, I'm told that I need a minimum of 100 hp to join, as on normal "this can be quite a tough raid".

So here's my question, is it possible/expected for a level 5 rogue to get over 100 hp? I started with 14 con, wear a lesser false life item, +2 con item, toughness, the one toughness enhancement available and yet I'm only on 87 hp. And forgive me if I'm terribly mistaken, but if I have evasion, lighting, acid, fire and frost resistances of 10, diplomacy maxed as a panic button and a healthy dose of common sense, surely I'm able to run Chronoscope normal?

(Bonus question: Is this "You don't have x amount of hp, you can't join" common for rogues? I normally play melee classes, so I'm not entirely sure about end-game goals for rogue hp, I just take items where I can.)

[paraplegic]

dont worry .. rogues are not "dps class"

/joke off

really rogues depends more on skill rather than brute force.. just join another group or make your own group

[Crazyfruit]

Bonus question: Is this "You don't have x amount of hp, you can't join" common for rogues?

Yes. You should just ignore those people. If they had to myddo you... especially at lvl 5..., they probably aren't very good. The good people who do that look you up, then ask what you could get your hp up to if they're concerned. Unless you only have 120 @ level 20.

Re: Chronoscope at level, anything over 50 is good imo when combined with ship buffs. Under 40 puts you in the 1 hit range. Winning that raid is more about healer skill than how much HP anyone has.

[Aerendil]

Get used to it. I frequently get declined on my Rogue for level 18-20 quests simply because they view "Rogue = squishy = no thanks". They don't even look up the MyDDO information (which wouldn't help them anyways, as my Rogue's profile is broken) or ask me via /tells what my unbuffed HP is.

It particularly makes me chuckle when I noticed a raid with one Rogue, who's ddo profile shows them at 100 hp less than me, but don't want another "squishy" so they turn me down, and rather sit there for 30+ minutes waiting for another "dps" character to join.

[Jaid314]

So here's my question, is it possible/expected for a level 5 rogue to get over 100 hp? I started with 14 con, wear a lesser false life item, +2 con item, toughness, the one toughness enhancement available and yet I'm only on 87 hp. And forgive me if I'm terribly mistaken, but if I have evasion, lighting, acid, fire and frost resistances of 10, diplomacy maxed as a panic button and a healthy dose of common sense, surely I'm able to run Chronoscope normal?

the rest has been dealt with pretty adequately, so i'll deal with this part.

base HP is 30, +20 for existing, +7 for toughness, +10 for toughness enhancement = 67 HP.

14 base con is not unreasonable, add in +2 item = +15 HP, add in lesser false life (dealing with mostly the really easy-to-get stuff) = +20 HP, total of 87 HP (your current point). is it reasonable to be able to get 13 more points? absolutely. but not so much unbuffed.

first, you have the rage spell. this is available in one form or another fairly readily, albeit the average brand new player won't have access. this puts you up by +5 HP, leaving 8 more to go. guild augment slots can potentially add up to +20, but it seems unreasonable to assume anyone can easily get guild 70. small (guild level 25) is much more doable and adds +10 HP. that's already 102 HP... but wait, there's more!

guild ship buffs can add an additional +2 points of constitution, for an additional 5 points. a bear's endurance potion can add +2 con again for +5 HP more. i believe in theory you could ha ve a full-blown false life item (not just lesser) for another +5.

as a half-elf, you could also have +1 to con and eat a +1 con tome. that's another +5. if by some chance you are in a level 70 guild and have a large augment slot, you can add +10 more over what the small slot offers. if you have the barbarian dilletante, i believe you could add another +10 if i'm not mistaken.

for a total *possible* maximum of 142 on your rogue, if i'm not mistaken. not including possible temporary hit points you could get before logging out to artificially boost your apparent hit points (false life clickies of the spell, aid clickies or cast by a friendly divine, a bard could throw GH and inspire competence, a paladin could throw virtue, you could have a lifeshield and bodyfeeding proc, and you could get stalwart pact and heroes' feast... but at that point, they're probably going to slightly suspect something is up when your level 5 rogue shows up as having a couple hundred hit points. not sure if it works for myddo, but i believe it does from what i've heard. not to mention this is an awful lot of work to go through just to make yourself fit some arbitrary standard)

is it expected? it shouldn't be. 87 HP is reasonable for a rogue just starting out (if you do in fact have access to crazy twink gear, then that changes things), and you are still well within the levels where a decent dex and decent armor can provide solid protection from melee, and with evasion and a good reflex save you are extremely well-protected from many spells.

but yeah, you totally could have a better hit point total if you get completely silly about it and use absolutely every means available to a twinked level 5 rogue in a high level guild.

[CanuckWisdom]

My bard was rejected for a shroud run once because someone looked up my hp and decided it was too low.

My bard DOES have low HP, its something I know I need to work on and am working on, but the response I got was 'you CANT do shroud with those hp', which is BS because I have frequently done it.

IF i had more hp I could survive better obviously which would be better, I have died a few times simply because my hp are low but to say I CANT do it, when I have multiple times by simply helping without standing in the damage is rediculous. All I have to do is adjust my tactics and help in any way I can, which is plentiful as a virtuouso. Heal spells, heal song and temp HP song, crowd control spells and of course bard buff songs.

I didnt like that attitude towards my ability to play the game/potential to contribute. Shroud is the only quest Ive been doing where HP has been an issue.

[Tinco]

The threshold how much HP you need for a given content has changed with every new max-level-increase and every new hp item out there - at least the perception of how much you 'need'. Fact is that more HP are a good thing and it's wise to really care for that number, especially for rogues as they are in the midst of things with the lowest base HP of all melees. You can avoid a lot of stuff with movement and saves/evasion but in the end more HP give you more room to 1. make mistakes (everyone makes them) 2. not think about survival all the time 3. surviving when the poo hits the fan (which will happen from time to time).

Steps towards this are:

1. Toughness feat + enhancements. Take them as a rogue.
2. False Life items for your level
3. Con item for your level
4. Creative use of UMD, things like blur and healing wands/scrolls are also 'more hp' in a sense.
5. Starting a toon with 14 (or more) constitution.

[Bodic]

Heres a funny do you have max possible dex @lvl5, a Mith chain shirt/robes of invulnerability, and a Mith heavy shield if you have those 3 things you will not get touched except on elites so you can run with 10 HP and be fine but then again I run the entire Delera's chain normal @ lvl5 either hirling to get the doors in pt2 or with 1-5 others.

So you want to worry about lvl HP dont just solo w/ hiriling cleric/FvS.

[Artos_Fabril]

Heres a funny do you have max possible dex @lvl5, a Mith chain shirt/robes of invulnerability, and a Mith heavy shield if you have those 3 things you will not get touched except on elites so you can run with 10 HP and be fine but then again I run the entire Delera's chain normal @ lvl5 either hirling to get the doors in pt2 or with 1-5 others.

So you want to worry about lvl HP dont just solo w/ hiriling cleric/FvS.

I understand this is hyperbole, but if fails to account for grazing hits, and you'd also need a shield or nightshield spell, because a single volley of magic missiles would end you instantly.

That's the thing, on top of useful AC being next unattainable to at high levels, there are enough sources of unavoidable or nearly unavoidable damage that you still need a good sized HP pool, even if the mobs never connect with a normal attack.

[LOOON375]

If you are smart and are a good player, you can get in and go toe to toe just like a fighter or Barb in most melee encounters, and be equally effective if not better.

I just built my newest rogue (3rd) and at level 4 she has 72 HP. She will have more than enough to run Chrono at level when I get there.