Give Spell slots the ability to hold lower level spells

[Chai]

lastly i mentioned that ddo more or less follows pnp not as an argument for against but only to show i realize it could go either way and any arguments of "but in pnp you can or cant" don't really apply.

It sure does apply. I wonder what the demographic is for people who are attracted to this game due to the sheer fact that it is based on D&D -and- 3.5. Most of us old schoolers realize that the translation will not be literal, but the spirit of D&D is maintained or not maintained based on instituting game mechanics which mirror the PnP game in spirit, even if they do not do so word for word. I see the "PnP is irrelevant to DDO" arguement waged quite often, and i disagree with it every time. It certainly is relevant.

[Tunst]

/signed

[Doxmaster]

If a PnP sorc wants to toss a 1st level spell into an 8th level slot, he has that option. His choice is just permanent instead of temporary.

No, it was not permanent in PnP. For ALL casters, including spontaneous ones, it was done on a case by case basis: Tuesday, you do it. Wednesday, you dont. I think I know whats going wrong for ya: You are assuming in PNP it is placed into the 'spells known per level'. It was not. You merely used one of your daily uses of 9th level slots to cast a spell that would normally use up one of your uses of 6th level slots, etc.


In DDO, it may be permanent, on the other hand. In PNP it merely drains from a higher level slot to get a casting in.

[Scraap]

Could make for some interesting choices if they reverted to SRD for that and the feats.

"So do you want an Extended 4th, or a 5th level spell?" (effectively sets extend cap at 8th level spells barring Epic levels)
"An Empowered 4th, or a 6th?" (sets empower cap at 7th levels)
"A Maximized, or 7th?" (sets maximize cap at 6th levels)
"A quickened, or 8th?" (sets quickened cap at 5th levels)
"A max+empowered 4th, or a 9th?"
"Just how far do you want to up your DC there with Heighten?" (Sets it to x level. Minimum when you get it, max 9, and by it'sself approaches what the OP asked for, though with a tradeoff.)

*values taken from http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm

[Rian]

No... This takes away a huge advantage wizards have over sorcs.

They FINALLY have enough spells where choosing them actually requires some thought..

This change goes through, every caster will have the exact same spells.

They need to release MORE spells so that the higher level slots are a tough choice too.

There's no place a sorcerer can go that a wizard that's built correctly can't do, if not better.
Wizards already have a huge advantage over sorcerers, sorc advantages are diminishing quickly, savants were just a duct tape fix imo, it's nice, but not quite there yet.

on to the main topic.

/signed
I like this idea, normally I find myself with spells I just don't use, they're just place holders really.
With this option I could all the spells I WANT.
The rules are already there, it's useful and it benefits many.
In the past I've only really used energy drain and wail, I guess I could take PWK as a emergency "ZOMG THIS MUST DIE" button, but I'd rather have something more convenient...like putting reconstruct in there

and could this apply to rangers to? 4 slots with only 4 spells to pick from for lvl 4 spells just seems depressing to me.

[MindCake]

"A quickened, or 8th?" (sets quickened cap at 5th levels)

*values taken from http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm

Except quicken in PnP is huge, and in DDO not so much.

But it isn't only an option for wizards.
If a PnP sorc wants to toss a 1st level spell into an 8th level slot, he has that option. His choice is just permanent instead of temporary.

No, it was not permanent in PnP. For ALL casters, including spontaneous ones, it was done on a case by case basis: Tuesday, you do it. Wednesday, you dont. I think I know whats going wrong for ya: You are assuming in PNP it is placed into the 'spells known per level'. It was not. You merely used one of your daily uses of 9th level slots to cast a spell that would normally use up one of your uses of 6th level slots, etc.

Uh, no?
PnP spontaneous casters do operate by spells known per level system (Notice the "spells known" table). They pick spells at level ups, and have very limited options to change them later. If a sorc learned 1st level spell in level 8 spells known slot, they'd need to be level 22 before they could swap it. (Provided they used the level 21 feat to get a level 10 spell slot.)

[Bodic]

it goes like this

how many lvl8 wiz spell are there 12
how many lvl8 spell slots do wiz have 5
how many useful lvl8 spell are there that must take a slot 2-3

So /signed

[Rodasch]

No, it was not permanent in PnP. For ALL casters, including spontaneous ones, it was done on a case by case basis: Tuesday, you do it. Wednesday, you dont. I think I know whats going wrong for ya: You are assuming in PNP it is placed into the 'spells known per level'. It was not. You merely used one of your daily uses of 9th level slots to cast a spell that would normally use up one of your uses of 6th level slots, etc.


In DDO, it may be permanent, on the other hand. In PNP it merely drains from a higher level slot to get a casting in.

You have this a little mixed up. What you are talking about is already handled by the spell point system and being able to cast any of your spells known as many times as you want as long as you have spell points.

He is absolutely correct in stating that spells known would be altered, putting a lower level spell in your higher level known slot permanently in order to do what the op is asking for.

You have to look at it all for what it is. Sorcerer spells list is exactly the "spells known" list, while "spells per day" is handled for all spellcasting classes by our spell point bar and is much more flexible and forgiving than PnP.

[Doxmaster]

Except quicken in PnP is huge, and in DDO not so much.


Uh, no?
PnP spontaneous casters do operate by spells known per level system (Notice the "spells known" table). They pick spells at level ups, and have very limited options to change them later. If a sorc learned 1st level spell in level 8 spells known slot, they'd need to be level 22 before they could swap it. (Provided they used the level 21 feat to get a level 10 spell slot.)

Alright, to clarify my position, I will try to restate this using a slightly more clear method. In this discussion I am talking about PnP as DDo WILL require sorcerers to permanently change their spells known list to accommodate casting lower level spells in higher level spell slots. Metamagic feats are not included in this discussion.
~-In PnP-~
Spells per spell level (typically called spell slots)= Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4, Q5, Q6, Q7, Q8, Q9, QX
Spells known per level (sorcerer and similar casters only)=(#)W

A sorcerer who wishes to use and spell from W may, in Pen and Paper as per 3.5 rules, use a ‘spell slot’ or Q of equal or greater value to the spells natural level. To use magic missile, a Q1 spell, he must expend a spell slot from Q1, Q2, or any greater spell slot. Using magic missile in a Q9 spell slot confers no benefit other than allowing the sorcerer to cast the spell at a time which said sorcerer might not have any Q1/spells slots remaining. Should the sorcerer use a Q9 spell slot to cast Sleep, a Q1 spell, the DC would not be increased due to the spell being of a higher level. In all ways, casting a spell in a higher level Q due to this system is identical to casting the spell in its natural spell.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm][/url]
Spell Slots
The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.

Thus

. If a sorc learned 1st level spell in level 8 spells known slot, they'd need to be level 22 before they could swap it. (Provided they used the level 21 feat to get a level 10 spell slot.)

does not have an opportunity to happen at all unless the sorcerer SPECIFICALLY wishes to learn that spell, magic missile in our case, and can only learn it at a time when he is learning 8th level spells. Should another sorcerer have magic missile among W, his spells known list, that second sorcerer may freely cast magic missile, a Q1 spell, in a Q2, Q3, Q4, Q5, Q6, Q7, Q8 or Q9.

Here are forum topics that support my view:
~-EN WORLD-~
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-leg...vel-spell.html
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-leg...evel-slot.html
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-leg...el-spells.html
~-OTHER-~
http://forums.steampowered.com/forum...t-1750695.html
http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...ur_help_wanted.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards...sForMySorcerer

revelant information from that link] This is a bad reason to go for metamagic. You can already just use a 2nd-level slot to cast a 1st-level spell, so in your example, you should just cast Magic Missile using your 1st-level slot, and then if you need True Strike later, cast it using a 2nd-level slot.
For this reason, I tend to like the Heighten Magic mm feat for sorcerers, since, if you're going to be burning a higher-level slot for a spell, you might as well get the bonus to the save DC out of it.

True Strike
Divination
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: See text
You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during your next attack. Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target.
Focus
A small wooden replica of an archery target.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMissile.htm][/url]
Magic Missile
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets: Up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage.

The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can’t be singled out. Inanimate objects are not damaged by the spell.
For every two caster levels beyond 1st, you gain an additional missile—two at 3rd level, three at 5th, four at 7th, and the maximum of five missiles at 9th level or higher. If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single creature or several creatures. A single missile can strike only one creature. You must designate targets before you check for spell resistance or roll damage.

Just so we are all on the same page, this is my post you are responding to:

No, it was not permanent in PnP. For ALL casters, including spontaneous ones, it was done on a case by case basis: Tuesday, you do it. Wednesday, you dont. I think I know whats going wrong for ya: You are assuming in PNP it is placed into the 'spells known per level'. It was not. You merely used one of your daily uses of 9th level slots to cast a spell that would normally use up one of your uses of 6th level slots, etc.


In DDO, it may be permanent, on the other hand. In PNP it merely drains from a higher level slot to get a casting in.

I will now color code it to make matters even more clear.

No, it was not permanent in PnP. For ALL casters, including spontaneous ones, it was done on a case by case basis: Tuesday, you do it. Wednesday, you dont. I think I know whats going wrong for ya: You are assuming in PNP it is placed into the 'spells known per level'. It was not. You merely used one of your daily uses of 9th level slots to cast a spell that would normally use up one of your uses of 6th level slots, etc.

In DDO, it may be permanent, on the other hand. In PNP it merely drains from a higher level slot to get a casting in.

I was responding to this post:

We're getting off topic. If we want to debate the pros and cons of individually meta'd spells we should start another thread.




But it isn't only an option for wizards.
If a PnP sorc wants to toss a 1st level spell into an 8th level slot, he has that option. His choice is just permanent instead of temporary.

I was talking about PnP the whole time. Also, the last edit to my post was long before any replies were posted.

[Rodasch]

You're still mixing up spells per day with spells known.

Spells you can cast per day (spell slots which you exhaust and thus would need to cast magic missiles as a 3rd level spell instead of a first level if you ran out of first level spells for the day) is handled by your spell point bar. You can cast any spell in your "spells known" list as many times as you have spell points to cast. This ALREADY makes the same (and even BETTER) effect as what you are claiming to ask for.

You can effectively use ALL of your "Spells per day" to cast first level spells, getting far more than 1 for 1 return on the swap when not casting the higher level spells.

-------------

Asking to swap a spell from your repertoire of 3rd level (or whatever) spells known (that list you see when you hit the "spells" tab on your character sheet) for a lower level spell is a permanent swap of known and accessible spells, and is quite permanent (well, in ddo you can change it every 3 days for some plat). There is only marginal precedent for doing this in PnP, and most of that is house rules or supplemental variant rules.

Read what I'm telling you carefully, Doxmaster. if you still disagree with me, then read it again and draw yourself a chart or map or something, because I am 100% correct here. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Spells per day table is replaced by your spell point bar, spell level slots are replaced by spell point cost. Your spell list on your character sheet is your spells known, not spells per day.

While we're on the topic, why are Sorcerers shorted spells known?
At level 20 we are supposed to have 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 3, not 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 3. We should have one more first and second level spell in our list of known spells at 20th level.

[Doxmaster]

You're still mixing up spells per day with spells known.
…
Read what I'm telling you carefully, Doxmaster. if you still disagree with me, then read it again and draw yourself a chart or map or something, because I am 100% correct here. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Spells per day table is replaced by your spell point bar, spell level slots are replaced by spell point cost. Your spell list on your character sheet is your spells known, not spells per day.

…
I…I cant even. Did you actually read my post?

Breaking your post apart. Gimme a sec. Before I post though, please clarify what you are talking about. DDo or Pen and Paper.

[MindCake]

…
I…I cant even. Did you actually read my post?

Breaking your post apart. Gimme a sec. Before I post though, please clarify what you are talking about. DDo or Pen and Paper.

Did you even read Rodasch's post?
You're still mixing up spells known and spells per day.

Thus does not have an opportunity to happen at all unless the sorcerer SPECIFICALLY wishes to learn that spell, magic missile in our case, and can only learn it at a time when he is learning 8th level spells.

This is the very case this thread is about - increasing the flexibility of spell seletion, by letting us learn/prepare lower level spells treating them as if they were higher level. Eg. for spontaneous casters getting another 1 st level spell at a time you usually get a 6th level spell, and for non spontaneous caster preparing a lower level spell in higher level slot. These options don't currently exist in DDO. They do exist in PnP, and are possible for non-spontaneous casters (though, they'd rather load up metamagics than just use higher slots), and also possible, but severely expensive, and pretty much permanent for spontaneous casters.

The thing you're discussing, that is casting lower level spells using higher level slots, is already present in DDO. You can empty your blue bar casting nothing but magic missiles, this means you're free to use up your 2nd level casting powers on 1st level spells, etc. Since it's already present, there's no reason to introduce it. So, quite obviously, this thread is not asking for it to be implemented.

[Doxmaster]

The problem is...I was talking about Pen and Paper. I had always been talking about Pen and Paper, standard rules. I even said I was talking about Pen and paper at least...5 times, give or take. We werent talking about the SP rule variation or DDo at the time you guys started quoting me.

Its almost as if you guys did not read what I was quoting and correcting...then didnt read I was talking about pen and paper (included several times in each post actually) and then didnt read me telling you we had things confused and I was not talking about DDo.

It makes me wonder if you missed me agreeing about how things would probably work in DDo too...I doubt you even know my name, actually.

Well...my posts are there above us. Scroll up if ya need to.

[Malison]

No, the problem is that you're talking about one thing that is true, and they're talking about a different thing that is true. Both are talking about Pnp.

Doxmaster's argument:
A sorcerer who knows magic missile as a 1st level spell may cast it using an 8th level spell per day, or any other level.

In DDO, this flexibility is covered by the use of an SP bar.

Calebro's argument:
A sorcerer learning a new 8th level spell who wants to learn magic missile may learn it in an 8th level slot. It gives him no benefit over learning it as a 1st level spell.

In DDO, this flexibility does not exist, and should.

[Doxmaster]

No, the problem is that you're talking about one thing that is true, and they're talking about a different thing that is true. Both are talking about Pnp.

Doxmaster's argument:
A sorcerer who knows magic missile as a 1st level spell may cast it using an 8th level spell per day, or any other level.

In DDO, this flexibility is covered by the use of an SP bar.

Calebro's argument:
A sorcerer learning a new 8th level spell who wants to learn magic missile may learn it in an 8th level slot. It gives him no benefit over learning it as a 1st level spell.

In DDO, this flexibility does not exist, and should.

This is what I have been talking about this whole time.
l
\/

If a PnP sorc wants to toss a 1st level spell into an 8th level slot, he has that option. His choice is just permanent instead of temporary.

^
l
This. This is what I've been talking about this whole time. There are no arguments on how it should be done, whether it should be done or anything else like that. Calebro was wrong, or worded that wrong. I corrected him. No idea how you guys got involved, or what you are talking about, honestly.

It seems you still havent read my posts. Here, I'll make it simple:
I am ONLY talking about PnP. For our purposes, DDo doesnt even exist in my eyes. I have never heard of it.

Sorcerers are spellcasters. The Pen and Paper rules state spellcasters can do this thing. Sorcerers can therefor do this thing. Simple as that.

[MsEricka]

/signed

[danielost]

i think the point the op is trying to make is if you have all of your first lvl spell slots filled with useful spells but you still want to use more of them. then use them at a higher lvl spell slot where you may have spells that you dont want to use.

[rayworks]

I'd like to see us able to memorize spells based on the total number of spell levels. For instance, if your cleric can mem 3 1st, 2 2nd, and 1 3rd, he has a total of 10 spell levels. He could, then, memorize say 5 1sts if he used one of the 2nds to add 2 1sts. He would then have 5 spell levels left.

But you could not memorize 2 3rds by using this system. You could only memorize spells lower than your max level allows.

[karnokvolrath]

I actually really like this idea.

I would take a 5th or 6th level slot and designate it a 4th level spell.

On a side note, perhaps the problem is that there are more good 4th level spells then 5th and 6th level ones. Obviously that is up for debate person to person but i would personally always do this.

*****spoiler, sorry if i ramble******

Spells that IMO are VERY useful that cannot affectively be scroll cast.

4th level "must haves" --

1. Firewall - Self Explanatory
2. Fireshield - IMO one of the best spells in the game, offers defence and offence, and versatility (fire,cold)
3. Stoneskin - Can be Scrolled but not as affective and casting time is an issue as well.
4. Death Aura - A Must fore Palemasters, Still Decent for Sorcs.
5. Negative Energy Burst - A must for palemasters, most likely left off every sorc due to to many other great spells.
6. Enveneration - At mid levels this spell can have a massive affect on saving thows.
7. Dimension Door - Not a must have but an awesome spell none-the-less

Spells That can easily jump onto the great list depending on your build -
Icestorm, Acid Rain, Force Missiles, Repair Crit.


That Leaves us with 7 borderline "must haves" and 4 more potential "must haves" for a total of 11 spells. What do i think about 11 very good spells in the same braket? I love it, i couldnt be happier, 11 spells is alot to choose from. Here is my issue though, looking at 6th level spells we get a whole different look.

5th level "must haves" -

1. Cone of Cold - At this level its your best multiple enemy cold damage spell regardless of your build. I could potentally argue that polar ray and icestorm can make this spell obsolete, i dont personally believe that, but the arguement is there.
2. None.....

5th level spells that can be great depending on your build.
1. Cloudkill - I personally like this spell but i know many that dont.
2. Eladar's Electric Surge - I love the new DOTS and for a cold based caster this is your DOT.
3. Niac's Biting Cold - I love the new DOTS and for a cold based caster this is your DOT.
4. Ball Lightning - Decent damage, most notable is that its fairly fixed damage 15d3+45

5th level spells that have almost no reason to be slotted at cap (where we spend most of our time).

1. Teleport - Scrolls....quit being Cheep, lol.
2. Dismissal - No capped arcane has this, if they wanted it they would use banish.
3. Summon Monster 5 - Scrolls.....quit being Cheep.
4. Protection From Elements - The mass version makes this pointless, also, divines tend to keep that buff on lock down.
5. Hold Monster - The mass version makes this a weak choice, a single target for cheeper does have its uses but i wouldnt waist a slot on it, at least not at cap.

So based on my personal breakdown at most there are five 5th level spells to choose from and all of them are element specific so for a min maxxed charicter you will at most pick two of the five.

So this leaves us back to the argument of letting 4th lvl spells be memorised in a 5th level slot. I personally would love it, it seems wrong that spells that are suposed to be more powerful in fact arnt because of playstyle/game mechanics,ext ext ext. Gaining a level sould be a reward not a list of "Oh, this is all junk i wish they would just let me have stoneskin."

Remove the level from the spell list and pick your top 10 4th and 5th level spells. A capped wizard would have five 4th level and five 5th level spells so a top 10 would be perfect, top 8 if your a sorc....my list would go as fallows.

1. Wall of Fire
2. Fire Shield
3. Death Aura/Neg Burst
4. Stoneskin
5. Cone of Cold
6. Enveneration
7. Ice Storm
8. Repair Crit (Im bias because i only play WF)
9. Dimension Door
10. Cloud Kill

MY Top 10 leans heavily twards the 4th level spells with 8 4th level spells to only two 5th levels spells. Neither 5th level spell makes my top five, and cloudkill im not even super set on because i havnt gotten to really test the new DOTs with a specced sorc.

----EDIT----
Just to stay slighty on where this thread was headed, i dont care about 2.0 3.0 3.5 4.0, ive played under all the rule sets and it doesnt matter what "the core rules" are. MY opions are based on what i beleave would make the game funner for me.

[Khellendros13]

Not signed.

While this would make my life easier on my Wizard, I don't think it should get easier.

How many say that Pale Master is superior to Archmage? A lot. So leave them with the hard choice of level 4 spells.

The solution or alternative should be to add more high level spells. The new dots help, and I use all my 4th, 5th level spells all the time. Cloudkill isn't optional (on a caster that has a clue and cares about the healers).

Level 9 really needs a LOT of work. 5 slots, 8 level 9 spells. Oh no which ones do I take? This list may vary by 1 spell on each Wizard.

I suggest adding a pop up after shrining reminding you that you can swap out spells