Give Spell slots the ability to hold lower level spells

[MindCake]

This is what I have been talking about this whole time.
l
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But it isn't only an option for wizards.
If a PnP sorc wants to toss a 1st level spell into an 8th level slot, he has that option. His choice is just permanent instead of temporary.

^
l
This. This is what I've been talking about this whole time.

[...]

Here, I'll make it simple:
I am ONLY talking about PnP. For our purposes, DDo doesnt even exist in my eyes. I have never heard of it.

Let me clarify a couple details:

Do you agree, that in PnP, sorceres have two lists:
1. list of spells known
2. list of spells per day

yes/no?

Do you, when you read the quoted relevant post believe the "8th level slot" in question comes from the "list of spells per day"?

yes/no?

If the above two are yes, please explain the second one.

[Truga]

Le Post.

What he's trying to say is: A sorcerer can, when he levels to level 16, choose magic missile as his "level 8" known spell.

[sweez]

If ALL spell levels were absolutely packed with useful spells, this would be a non-issue. However, with even 6th or 7th choice level 4 spells being overall better spells than most 2nd or 3rd choice level 7-9 spells, I wholeheartedly /sign

Either give us the option to slot lower level spells into higher level spell slots, or give us more useful high-level spells.

[MindCake]

What he's trying to say is: A sorcerer can, when he levels to level 16, choose magic missile as his "level 8" known spell.

Which "he"?

Because if you mean Calebro, then yes, I know, I understand and I agree.

If you mean Doxmaster, then I have no idea what's going on, as he's saying something completely unrelated.

[Doxmaster]

Let me clarify a couple details:

Do you agree, that in PnP, sorceres have two lists:
1. list of spells known
2. list of spells per day

yes/no?

Do you, when you read the quoted relevant post believe the "8th level slot" in question comes from the "list of spells per day"?

yes/no?

If the above two are yes, please explain the second one.

1-Yes
2-Yes
Yes.
~-In Pen and Paper-~

A sorcerer may cast magic missile using a use of his level 1 spells per day, his level 2 spells per day, his level three spells per day and so on. He gains nothing from casting it from his spells per day if the spells per day are not level 1 spells per day.

A sorcerer may learn magic missile at any character levels level he learns level 1 spells, sorcerer level 1, 3, 5 or 7. A sorcerer may not learn magic missile when he learns level 9 spells, such as meteor swarm, as he does not learn level 1(Sorry, it said 9 here but it was suppose to say 1) spells at that time.

[Rumbaar]

I like this idea, there will need to be a cost, but sounds do-able without breaking the game. Well more than it currently is.

[Rodasch]

1-Yes
2-Yes
Yes.
~-In Pen and Paper-~

A sorcerer may cast magic missile using a use of his level 1 spells per day, his level 2 spells per day, his level three spells per day and so on. He gains nothing from casting it from his spells per day if the spells per day are not level 1 spells per day.

A sorcerer may learn magic missile at any character levels level he learns level 1 spells, sorcerer level 1, 3, 5 or 7. A sorcerer may not learn magic missile when he learns level 9 spells, such as meteor swarm, as he does not learn level 9 spells at that time.

This is a much clearer representation of what you were trying to say, apparently. Thank you for taking the time to reword it so that we can all follow your intended meaning.

That being said, you are half right. There are rules for sorcerers forgetting old spells from the "spells known" list and gaining a new spell to replace it at any point where they are learning new spells of any level. Doing so requires them to swap out the old spell for the new one with no backsies...It's not something that is easy or encouraged heavily, but it is doable. however, they cannot learn a 1st level spell AS their 9th level "spells known" spell, as you say, so you are correct about that. That has always been the limitation of sorcerers to keep them from completely eclipsing wizards in spell power, since they get way more spells per day of all levels than wizards do as well as having better weapon selection and spell spontaneity (they don't memorize spells, they cast any spell on their spells known list as long as they have "spells per day" of that level left). That's a powerful combination in PnP, more than balanced versus wizards extra feats and broader spellbook (spells known).

What exactly are you trying to do here though? Are you supporting the OP's request or refuting it? Or are you just chatting in a sidebar about Calebro's post?

[MindCake]

A sorcerer may not learn magic missile when he learns level 9 spells, such as meteor swarm, as he does not learn level 9 spells at that time.

I see.

I was thinking this should be allowed.

[...]These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.[...]

In particular, there's nothing to stop the sorcerer from developing a level 9 spell that creates "Up to five missiles of magical energy, that dart forth from your fingertips and strike their targets, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage each.[...]". DM could perhaps reject it, but come on, why? If the sorcerer player is willing to gimp himself this bad, he either has a valid in-game reason (umm, they desperately need force spells for something?), or his character is crazy about magic missiles (which I'd say is a valid in-game reason).

I'd allow it, perhaps even throw in empower and heighten to level 9 for free, or I'd just say they put magic missile in that slot (to cut on the book keeping).

[Doxmaster]

What exactly are you trying to do here though? Are you supporting the OP's request or refuting it? Or are you just chatting in a sidebar about Calebro's post?

I was in support of the OPs idea, but I got sidetracked by Calebro's post. One last thing though: In regards to

Doing so requires them to swap out the old spell for the new one with no backsies...It's not something that is easy or encouraged heavily, but it is doable.

Sorcerers must swap a spell for another spell of equal level, so swapping fireball for magic missile would be impossible.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast.

Houseruling the swap allows high to low conversion is in no way overpowered, but as the rules are written it is not allowed. Aside from developing a new spell, as per what Mindcake said, once you miss out on getting or trading level 1 spells you'll never get magic missile.

[karnokvolrath]

Not signed.

While this would make my life easier on my Wizard, I don't think it should get easier.

How many say that Pale Master is superior to Archmage? A lot. So leave them with the hard choice of level 4 spells.

The solution or alternative should be to add more high level spells. The new dots help, and I use all my 4th, 5th level spells all the time. Cloudkill isn't optional (on a caster that has a clue and cares about the healers).

Level 9 really needs a LOT of work. 5 slots, 8 level 9 spells. Oh no which ones do I take? This list may vary by 1 spell on each Wizard.

I suggest adding a pop up after shrining reminding you that you can swap out spells

Its funny how not so long ago palemasters where completely denounced as worthless. Archamges where "uber", and nothing has changed exept palemaster have gotten weaker and the people in the know let the secret out. (wink)

I agree with cloudkill, i love the spell hence it made my top 10, but as i said many dont. Earth Savant has done alot to change how people look at it recently.

A pop-up option is pointless because it would be annoying without being to turn it off.....and everyone would turn it off.

BTW when are we going to completely throw out all "house rules", PnP, 3.5 4.0 arguments......they hold absalutely no barring other then when people want to groan or fan-boy there idea. Look at what would be fair and balanced to our game, direct pnp rules have almost no hold anymore other then to offer a few ideas. The coding of all pnp spells would flat out break the game. I know alot of us are pnpers in the start (myself included) but this isnt pnp and never will be, look at it objectivly.

[donfilibuster]

The point of having any rules was to let you build the characters and the quests.
Which rules are chosen depend on the campaign or setting, including for balance.

In the particular case of allowing lower lv spells on higher lv slots it has a purpose.
It let you build a character without high primary score.
You can have a wiz with low int and can fill the slots with the spells you can cast.

As far as customization goes, not having a high score is a valid option.
Wether you disallow that in the game is a different matter.

Still /signed

[danielost]

The point of having any rules was to let you build the characters and the quests.
Which rules are chosen depend on the campaign or setting, including for balance.

In the particular case of allowing lower lv spells on higher lv slots it has a purpose.
It let you build a character without high primary score.
You can have a wiz with low int and can fill the slots with the spells you can cast.

As far as customization goes, not having a high score is a valid option.
Wether you disallow that in the game is a different matter.

Still /signed

you might be able to fill your spell slots with lower lvl spells, but the lower your primary stat the fewer number of spells you can have at every lvl.

[fuzzy1guy]

An idea.

Just ADD the base costs.

Say you've got a 25 base cost spell. Wanna put it in a base cost 50 slot.


New base sp cost... 75. Before max, empower, heighten ect.. that could get real expensive on some slot swaps.


Would give us some options. With a real heavy price to do it. Take a little thought to when/if you wanted to cast that.

[Dispel]

Level 7 Spells Suck! Level 6 Spells Rock!

Level 8 Spells Kinda' Suck Now Too! Let's Do This!

[Certon]

Absolutely great idea. The original poster, that is. It's not OP, and allows Wizards and Clerics (and to a lesser extent Rangers and Paladins) some leeway without overpowering them.

[donfilibuster]

Level 7 Spells Suck! Level 6 Spells Rock!

Level 8 Spells Kinda' Suck Now Too! Let's Do This!

Despite the irony that's not how it is supposed to be.
The higher level spells are supposedly to be exponentially growing in niceness.
Where's the cleric's earthquake? planar ally (greater), gate, storm of vengeance?
Where's the wizard's spell turning? insanity, mordenkainen's sword, reverse gravity?
prismatic wall! even scintillating pattern, imprisonment, weird (aka mass phantasm killer).
Just to name a few that might not conflict with DDO as say, etherealness would do.