Melee Wizard viable?

[MattTater]

Hello!
Sitting as I do everyday, I thought about making a selfbuffing wizard.
I know that there are warchanters, and that I'll probably be hated on for even suggesting a Melee based wizard, but still, what would the pro's be (or the cons) of choosing wizard over bard?
(I'm practically spellcaster stupid)
Also, Metamagic question: Does Empower stack with maximize (For a total of 250% extra dmg)?

[RenigadeWolf]

Hello!
Sitting as I do everyday, I thought about making a selfbuffing wizard.
I know that there are warchanters, and that I'll probably be hated on for even suggesting a Melee based wizard, but still, what would the pro's be (or the cons) of choosing wizard over bard?
(I'm practically spellcaster stupid)
Also, Metamagic question: Does Empower stack with maximize (For a total of 250% extra dmg)?

Empower Stacks with Maximize; not sure the exact % it turns out to, but it does. also, i have ever met one Melee effective Wizard in my life. (was in a group of friends that played together all the time, i was lucky to be able to play with them when i did. ask Aeolwind...) i have also met a Pale Master with a few Monk levels that would hit stuff...not sure how effective it was; the reality is that you need a lot of Wizard levels to cast effectively, so it if a VERY difficult playstyle to master, or even attempt.

[Bargol]

Yes empower stacks with maximize. The problem with a melee wizard is in DDO, unlike PnP D&D, a melee class doesn't mix well with a caster (wizard). You end up being a weak wizard or a weak self buffing melee. In multiclassing what you lose from not staying pure needs to be made up and then some from the new class your taking. Can a melle wizard be viable? Yes, who can actually pull this off? Very few of us have the gear tomes etc. to make it work....

[richieelias27]

Whether it is viable or not depends entirely on what gear you have available to you, and what content you plan on doing.

For an ungeared or somewhat geared player without access to Warforged, a melee PaleMaster wizard is perfectly viable for low level and equal level normal content.

For the above with access to Warforged Palemaster is no longer a requirement and you could probably also run Hard content without too much difficulty.

For a moderately geared player, a melee wizard is perfectly viable for most hard to elite content outside of Raids.

For an extremely well geared player you will be able to run almost all content including some Raids solo.

You will have difficulty getting into groups no matter what due to biases against Arcane multiclasses.

There is absolutely no reason that adding Melee to your Arcane requires dumbing down your Arcane abilities. It is just a matter of how much melee you want. Once you start splashing in other classes you will start to see some decline in Arcane abilities. With the masters touch spell and divine power clickies there is no need to add fighter type classes in order to use martial weapons and have full BAB.

For a pure Arcane you can have the exact same abilities as any other caster with maxed casting stat, CON at 14-16 and STR at 14-16. With proper gear this will allow you to be effective enough in melee while running almost any non epic content solo. No, you will not be able to compete with any other pure or mostly pure melee in melee combat, but that is not the point. Also, with the proper gear and buffs going into melee combat with such a character in said content will not be suicide.

All of that said, if you plan on doing some sort of heavy multiclass melee/arcane such as a "12arcane/6fighter type/2evasion class" split, be warned that they are typically very gear dependant.

[unbongwah]

You're not even the first person to ask about gishes this week; have a look at this thread.

[Krago]

Can you? Yes
Should you? No

The amount of melee DPS that you can add does not outway the healing required to keep you in the fray.

[richieelias27]

Can you? Yes
Should you? No

The amount of melee DPS that you can add does not outway the healing required to keep you in the fray.

Typically someone who goes for melee arcane does so because they wish to solo, and usually they can provide their own healing (PM or Warforged). For solo play melee Arcane is actually very effective.

[kernal42]

I played a melee-capable wizard until recently. It was great fun, but took a big hit with U9.

A worthwhile comparison to make is potential melee damage vs. potential cheap/free SLA damage.

With the best gear available, I can't get a melee wizard above about 250 dps (eSoS and TWF monk end up about the same). On the other hand, a poorly-geared pale master reaches about 200 dps with just necrotic bolt.

In short, going melee on a wizard is now far more trouble than it's worth. You might be able to pull off a 12/6/2 split as suggested above (see Phidius' Gemstone), but these are very gear-intensive and you lose most of your ability to act as the party arcane (via crowd control, etc).

If you're interested in a build that can melee, self-buff, and also fill the expected party roles, consider a Warforged Favored Soul with a greatsword. You'll be able to do reasonable dps (much better than the SLAs you could get as FvS) and still be a main healer in a raid. Such a build is also not hard to gear decently.

Cheers,
Kernal

[Krago]

Typically someone who goes for melee arcane does so because they wish to solo, and usually they can provide their own healing (PM or Warforged). For solo play melee Arcane is actually very effective.

Yes, particularly relying on casting ability, rather than melee.

[richieelias27]

Yes, particularly relying on casting ability, rather than melee.

Irrellevant. The melee ability is used as a backup. It is still a melee capable arcane.

[Krago]

Irrellevant. The melee ability is used as a backup. It is still a melee capable arcane.

Then all arcanes are melee builds?

I believe the OP was intentionally trying to turn his caster into a melee, not a caster that uses a melee weapon.

[TFPAQ]

Search for Tukaw info...

Heavily gear dependent, Divine Power Clickie Dependent.

Once geared (check the thread) surviability and guard-damage is exceptional.

[RangerOne]

I splashed a couple of rogue levels into a wizard. I've survived to level 12. I don't know how the future will pan out. I need to stress the UMD from here on out to be able to use the wands and scrolls I want for self healing.

[MattTater]

You're not even the first person to ask about gishes this week; have a look at this thread.

Yes, I saw this thread... I still think I (possibly) could do better.
This is what I've come up with:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

WizzyAxe 
Level 20 Lawful Good Warforged Male
(20 Wizard) 
Hit Points: 262
Spell Points: 1551 
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 5
Will: 10

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    21
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         18                    20
Intelligence         14                    18
Wisdom                6                     6
Charisma              8                    10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance              -1                    -1
Bluff                -1                     0
Concentration         8                    28
Diplomacy            -1                     0
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -1                     0
Heal                 -2                    -2
Hide                 -1                    -1
Intimidate           -1                     0
Jump                  3                     5
Listen               -2                    -2
Move Silently         1                    10
Open Lock            n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                    n/a
Repair                4                    27
Search                2                     4
Spot                 -2                    -2
Swim                  3                     5
Tumble                0                     0
Use Magic Device      1                    11

Level 1 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Repair (+2)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell
Feat: (Selected) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Greataxe
Spell (1): Detect Secret Doors
Spell (1): Expeditious Retreat
Spell (1): Jump
Spell (1): Mage Armor
Spell (1): Nightshield


Level 2 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+0.5)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (1): Shield
Spell (1): Grease


Level 3 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+0.5)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
Spell (2): Invisibility
Spell (2): Knock


Level 4 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+0.5)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (2): Resist Energy
Spell (2): Blur


Level 5 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+0.5)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Heighten Spell
Spell (3): Displacement
Spell (3): Haste


Level 6 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+0.5)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Spell (3): Rage
Spell (3): Protection From Energy


Level 7 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+0.5)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (4): Fire Shield
Spell (4): Wall of Fire


Level 8 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+0.5)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (4): Dimension Door
Spell (4): Stoneskin


Level 9 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+0.5)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Spell (5): Cloudkill
Spell (5): Protection From Elements


Level 10 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+0.5)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Mental Toughness
Spell (5): Cone of Cold
Spell (5): Dominate Person


Level 11 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+0.5)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (6): Reconstruct
Spell (6): Shadow Walk


Level 12 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+0.5)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Spell (6): Greater Heroism
Spell (6): Tenser's Transformation


Level 13 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+0.5)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 14 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+0.5)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (7): Otto's Sphere of Dancing
Spell (7): Finger of Death


Level 15 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+0.5)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Eschew Materials
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Spell (8): Mass Repair Critical Damage
Spell (8): Otto's Irresistable Dance


Level 16 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+0.5)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (7): Mass Protection From Elements
Spell (6): Disintegrate


Level 17 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+0.5)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (9): Wail of the Banshee
Spell (9): Energy Drain


Level 18 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+0.5)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Spell (9): Mass Hold Monster
Spell (3): Magic Circle Against Evil


Level 19 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+0.5)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (6): Mass Bear's Endurance
Spell (7): Mass Hold Person


Level 20 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Repair (+3)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Improved Mental Toughness
Spell (1): Merfolk's Blessing
Spell (1): Feather Fall
Enhancement: Wizard Master of Magic
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Heightening I
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Heightening II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness IV
Enhancement: Reconstructive Spellcasting I
Enhancement: Reconstructive Spellcasting II
Enhancement: Reconstructive Spellcasting III
Enhancement: Reconstructive Spellcasting IV
Enhancement: Reconstructive Spellcasting V
Enhancement: Reconstructive Spellcasting VI
Enhancement: Mighty Reconstruction I
Enhancement: Mighty Reconstruction II
Enhancement: Mighty Reconstruction III
Enhancement: Mighty Reconstruction IV
Enhancement: Mighty Reconstruction V
Enhancement: Mighty Reconstruction VI
Enhancement: Repair Manipulation I
Enhancement: Repair Manipulation II
Enhancement: Repair Manipulation III
Enhancement: Repair Manipulation IV
Enhancement: Repair Manipulation V
Enhancement: Repair Manipulation VI
Enhancement: Repair Manipulation VII
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
Enhancement: Wizard Subtle Spellcasting I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II
Enhancement: Wizard Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Wizard Wand and Scroll Mastery II
Enhancement: Wizard Wand and Scroll Mastery III
Enhancement: Wizard Wand and Scroll Mastery IV
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend II
Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack II
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack III

Note: I'm practically wizard stupid, so my spell list probably looks terrible. Feel free to take and rip this build apart, reconstruct it, and then pwn me with it
-Matt

***EDIT***:
The reason why I use 28-pt build is because I don't have 32-pt yet. I try to make all my builds to where I can make them (eventually)

***EDIT 2***
I just glanced at the hitpoints. I just died a little inside.

[richieelias27]

Then all arcanes are melee builds?

I believe the OP was intentionally trying to turn his caster into a melee, not a caster that uses a melee weapon.

I went over that as well. It was all in my breakdown of what might be useful for what along with a disclaimer that heavily multiclassed Arcanes are heavily gear dependant.

Melee for Arcanes is mostly a mindset. Generally new players are *afraid* to swing any weapon because they think they cannot be effective with it. I am simply making the case that Different versions of Arcane melee have different purposes and serve different functions. What he wants out of his Arcane Melee is the absolute most important part of the equation and, unfortunately, we are lacking that.

If all he wants is to be able to swing a weapon while soloing to conserve mana for a boss fight, he need do no more than pack a few Divine Power clickies and add a few points to str at creation.

[kernal42]

Too much int, or not enough. Unless you're maxing int (18 + all levels), you will have trouble landing spells with DC. If you don't care about landing DC-spells, why the int at all? Start with an 8, +2 tome, +1 enhancement, +2 capstone, +6 item = 19, enough for level 9 spells. Use the extra build points to get str to 18, and put all levels there.

That said, if you don't care about DC spells, drop the capstone and splash some melee; probably 2 monk, maybe some fighter/rogue/barb. You'll get saves, evasion, feats, hp, and lose hardly anything.

For feats, never take:
Eschew Materials
Improved Mental Toughness
Mental Toughness (unless needed as a prereq)
The THF chain probably isn't helping you too much, but every bit counts.

For spells:
Never take Tenser's Transformation; use divine power clickies. Then you can keep casting spells.
Don't take Wail; your DC is not good enough. Use Power Word: Kill instead.
Same with Mass Hold Monster; it just won't work enough to be worth casting.

In general, this looks like a weak toon. You'll have pretty terrible melee DPS and be unable to fulfill the expected role of the arcane (Crowd Control; your DCs are generally too low). Your only saving grace is the ability to self-heal, but even that's not very helpful in a party situation.

Look up Tukaw build (and use the sorc/pal/monk split now). That's a much stronger version of what you're trying to do here. It's still not a great build as of the current update, but it will do everything this build can and more.


The other option is to go for a caster who can melee, which was how I built my most recent arcane. With 34-pt build, my build looks like:
WF 18 Wizard/2 Monk
16 str
16 con (after racial)
18 int (levelups here).
2 points somewhere else; wisdom?

Feats:
Insightful Reflexes
Toughness
Mental Toughness
Heighten Spell
Power Attack
Extend Spell
Spell Focus: Enchantment
Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
Maximize Spell
Empower Spell
Quicken Spell
Past Life: Wizard
Spell Penetration

At cap with only decent gear he reached a DC 40 Mass Hold, +35 ref save with evasion, 500 hp, and 30 sustainable strength. With divine power clickies he doesn't miss much, even with power attack on. Meleeing my way up to 20 was extremely easy, and (pre U9) meleeing through epics was quite effective. Now he doesn't melee anymore, finding CC much more effective.

-Kernal

[Krago]

I went over that as well. It was all in my breakdown of what might be useful for what along with a disclaimer that heavily multiclassed Arcanes are heavily gear dependant.

Melee for Arcanes is mostly a mindset. Generally new players are *afraid* to swing any weapon because they think they cannot be effective with it. I am simply making the case that Different versions of Arcane melee have different purposes and serve different functions. What he wants out of his Arcane Melee is the absolute most important part of the equation and, unfortunately, we are lacking that.

If all he wants is to be able to swing a weapon while soloing to conserve mana for a boss fight, he need do no more than pack a few Divine Power clickies and add a few points to str at creation.

Well since he wants to go pure Wizzy, I will let you handle the breakdown then.

[MattTater]

Thanks Kernal for the advice. I might rebuild this toon later.
The more I built the toon, the more I didn't like building it.
My spells seemed to be backtracking, I felt really lost in all the casting stuff, and to top it all off:
I would be a super squish mana using misser.
Most gimp build in the world

Thanks for the info everyone! I'm gonna go play some PnP DnD!

-Matt

[kernal42]

Thanks Kernal for the advice. I might rebuild this toon later.
The more I built the toon, the more I didn't like building it.
My spells seemed to be backtracking, I felt really lost in all the casting stuff, and to top it all off:
I would be a super squish mana using misser.
Most gimp build in the world

Thanks for the info everyone! I'm gonna go play some PnP DnD!

-Matt

I'm always interested to see a melee arcane build. I'd very much like to play one, but I don't at the moment see how to do so effectively. Hopefully you can find something I've missed!

Cheers,
Kernal

[unbongwah]

The problem with your build is you're sacrificing a considerable amount of offensive casting for weaksauce melee DPS; that's really not a good tradeoff. Now, any INT-based wiz can put their leftover stat pts into STR, cast Master's Touch, and start swinging away with a 2H weapon. But presuming you want something that more melee-focused, I think a WF version of the wiz 12 / ftr 6 / rogue 2 AM build I posted would work better than pure wiz: more DPS, more HPs, and more melee feats; while wiz 12 provides buffs, self-repairs, and some no-save DPS spells to round things out. Optimal for endgame? Most likely not; but it would be a decent solo build who can still help out in parties with buffs etc.